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  1. #21
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    In the hands of someone who has knowledge of the pharmacology of the drug and the condition of the patient, it is contraindicated neither in Chinese cresteds nor in sight hounds.

    There is nothing bizarre about the metabolism of either that would cause it to work differently.

    It is frequently overdosed, as has been alluded to above--the label dose really ought to be drastically lowered.

    And a breeders' forum isn't much higher up the pharmacologic wisdom food chain than a breeders' mailing list, IMHPO.

    It has become increasingly obvious to anyone who's been reading the COTH bb for any length of time that there is a growing percentage of the public that thinks that prescription drugs ought to be freely available by request--or better, a written prescription so that they can be obtained at the lowest possible price, veterinarians don't know anything about the "specialness" of Breed(insert whatever breed of whatever species the poster might own and/or propagate), we keep inconvenient hours, charge too much, etc.

    I expect that some time in the near future, Foster and Smith will start selling the Pet Owner's Home Ovariohysterectomy Kit, which, along with a copy of the Merk Veterinary Manual, a copy of Plumb's Formulary, and 1-800-Petmeds on speed dial will make it possible for us to close 90% of the veterinary schools in the country, thus saving the pet owner not only the upfront costs of such veterinary attention, but also significantly reducing the tax dollars that go towards supporting such obsolete institutions.

    I gotta go feed my horses and get dressed. A colleague is being honored with the distinguished service award by the state VMA tonight, and Baxter Black is the keynote speaker. I'll make sure she knows that the greyhounds she neuters and does dentals on before they're rehomed don't get administered any acepromazine.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  2. #22
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    Jul. 31, 1999
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    Thank you, Ghazzu.

    I work at a small animal clinic, and some of the things that we hear on a daily basis ...in large part, I suspect, generated by discussions like this. People get on the internet and share stories...but those stories have no context, and generally the owners don't have the whole story, or have gotten key phrases mixed up. Your vet is a professional, and has spent his or her life devoted to studying animals...not 3 hours every evening on the internet.

    I'm heading to veterinary school in the fall...and I know it is important for owners to educate themselves, but I wish I could make them to stay away from bulletin boards and stick to the Merck manual (available for free!).

    I know at our clinic, we are more than happy to answer any client questions ranging from house training to flea control to medication dosage...for free. And if the receptionists don't know the answer, they're more than happy to track down one of the doctors. So, while I know it's fun to pose your questions to the great wide world via the internet, please give your vet a call as well!



  3. #23
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    Sep. 22, 2008
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    Hahaha..... ok, so anybody what to know what really happens when one of these 'breeders' comes in to the clinic and tries to tell us what anesthetic protocol to use? The vet and techs say "oh yes of course, we know all about that!" and then we may or may not change what we were already planning to use. When you leave, or at night over dinner and drinks, we all share stories of the crazy 'breeders' who apparently know more about our job than we do!! Everyone has a good laugh about it, and we go on about our day.

    Didja know, if you really want to get technical about it, that the clinic I worked at one vet routinely gave ace to known seizure dogs? Know how many had seizures? One. Who the owner informed us at pickup needed more phenobarb since he'd been off it now for a week!

    So please, if you would like to seem well informed and discuss this with your vet. But DISCUSS is the key word! Explain that you have some concerns about it because of what you know, and listen to their response. Decide together what risks exist for your animal, and I promise your vet will be more than willing to make sure you're comfortable and stay involved. When you come in making demands about how things are dome you're going to make people more resentful about it. Demanding how things are done implies you know better/more than your vet, and leaves a bad taste in our mouths, but I don't know a single vet who minds having a good discussion with an owner about any aspect of their pets care! We want you and your pet to be happy, but seriously, don't tell us how to do our jobs!

    Like it's often said, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

    Katherine
    Vet Tech



  4. #24
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    Jul. 6, 2005
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    Aiken, SC
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    I have a German Shorthaired Pointer who is very sensitive to Ace. The first time I ever gave it to her, I miscalculated and gave her a chihuahua sized dose. She was drunk as a skunk for 18+ hours. Thank God I didn't give her the dose she 'should' have gotten!!



  5. #25
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    Sep. 22, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaresNest View Post
    I have a German Shorthaired Pointer who is very sensitive to Ace. The first time I ever gave it to her, I miscalculated and gave her a chihuahua sized dose. She was drunk as a skunk for 18+ hours. Thank God I didn't give her the dose she 'should' have gotten!!
    I think you just proved the point I have been trying to make about why discussing dosages is so dangerous. What if you miscalculated the does the other way, and gave your chi(hua)2 the GSP sized dose? And if she had been overly sensitive to it to boot? She may not have come around so well.

    Acepromazine is thought to be such a safe drug, but it does have a lot of side effects. It's technically an antihistamine, but isn't used as such because of the drowisnes. It also causes a drop in blood pressure, and too low of BP for too long can have an effect on every cell in the body, including kidney damage, and poor perfusion leading to hypoxia; in severe cases brain damage or even death can occur. If this was to happen in a vet clinic we have the capabilities to deal with and treat hypotension, and other potential side effects. If it happens at your house would you know in time to treat it?



  6. #26
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    Apr. 7, 2005
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    With a dog named Rockstar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    I expect that some time in the near future, Foster and Smith will start selling the Pet Owner's Home Ovariohysterectomy Kit, which, along with a copy of the Merk Veterinary Manual, a copy of Plumb's Formulary, and 1-800-Petmeds on speed dial will make it possible for us to close 90% of the veterinary schools in the country, thus saving the pet owner not only the upfront costs of such veterinary attention, but also significantly reducing the tax dollars that go towards supporting such obsolete institutions.
    :clap: :clap:
    I nominate this to the Best of the Chronicle posts.



  7. #27
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    Apr. 7, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaresNest View Post
    I have a German Shorthaired Pointer who is very sensitive to Ace. The first time I ever gave it to her, I miscalculated and gave her a chihuahua sized dose. She was drunk as a skunk for 18+ hours. Thank God I didn't give her the dose she 'should' have gotten!!
    If this was my dog, I'm 98.9% positive he would have died after being rushed to the ER clinic after after about $1500 in charges were racked up.

    You're lucky your dog survived.

    Let me guess... you used the "dose" on the bottle.

    Has anyone taken notice to the reasons why vets spend an average of a decade and the purchase price of a ranchette on school?



  8. #28
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    Sep. 9, 2008
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    In A World Called Catastrophe
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    I have onedog that can take 2 pills and a boat load of narcotics and still be bouncy.
    I have another dog can't take a half pill and function. The 1/2 pill dog is 30 lbs heavier than the 2 pill dog.
    Ask your vet and be careful!



  9. #29
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    Jul. 6, 2005
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    Aiken, SC
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatPalomino View Post
    You're lucky your dog survived.
    Indeed. That is why I share my story whenever the "How much Ace do I give my dog?" question pops up. This is not the first time I've posted about this on COTH.


    Quote Originally Posted by FatPalomino View Post
    Let me guess... you used the "dose" on the bottle.
    I actually meant to give her a half dose since I'd never given her Ace before. But instead of multiplying by 0.5, I divided by 5. There was an angel sitting on my shoulder that night. It's not like me at all to make that kind of mistake - I always double and triple check dosages. But, in this case, the consequences of giving the 'right' dosage could have been catastrophic.



  10. #30
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    Sep. 29, 2007
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    585

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    Quote Originally Posted by FatPalomino View Post
    If this was my dog, I'm 98.9% positive he would have died after being rushed to the ER clinic after after about $1500 in charges were racked up.

    You're lucky your dog survived.

    Let me guess... you used the "dose" on the bottle.

    Has anyone taken notice to the reasons why vets spend an average of a decade and the purchase price of a ranchette on school?
    My 90 lb sighthound was given a "pre-anesthetic cat sized dose" of ace before a scope by the vet, and she was gorked out for the next nine hours, couldn't stand, walk, move, nothing, out like a light. The vet was shocked. Um, why?



  11. #31
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    Feb. 6, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entourage View Post
    I have a Boxer and was told never to use Ace with them because of the breeds predisposition to heart problems and that if she had to be "put under" for any veterinary procedures to go with Valium instead. Never was told anything about seizures!
    It lowers the seizure threshold in animals with a history of such.
    It doens't cause the seizures, though.

    The boxer issue appears to be a particular bloodline.

    I'd not use ace alone in any breed as an anesthetic premed. It is far more useful (and safer) in combination.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  12. #32
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    Apr. 14, 2007
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    Pen Argyl PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    In the hands of someone who has knowledge of the pharmacology of the drug and the condition of the patient, it is contraindicated neither in Chinese cresteds nor in sight hounds.

    There is nothing bizarre about the metabolism of either that would cause it to work differently.

    It is frequently overdosed, as has been alluded to above--the label dose really ought to be drastically lowered.

    And a breeders' forum isn't much higher up the pharmacologic wisdom food chain than a breeders' mailing list, IMHPO.

    It has become increasingly obvious to anyone who's been reading the COTH bb for any length of time that there is a growing percentage of the public that thinks that prescription drugs ought to be freely available by request--or better, a written prescription so that they can be obtained at the lowest possible price, veterinarians don't know anything about the "specialness" of Breed(insert whatever breed of whatever species the poster might own and/or propagate), we keep inconvenient hours, charge too much, etc.

    I expect that some time in the near future, Foster and Smith will start selling the Pet Owner's Home Ovariohysterectomy Kit, which, along with a copy of the Merk Veterinary Manual, a copy of Plumb's Formulary, and 1-800-Petmeds on speed dial will make it possible for us to close 90% of the veterinary schools in the country, thus saving the pet owner not only the upfront costs of such veterinary attention, but also significantly reducing the tax dollars that go towards supporting such obsolete institutions.

    I gotta go feed my horses and get dressed. A colleague is being honored with the distinguished service award by the state VMA tonight, and Baxter Black is the keynote speaker. I'll make sure she knows that the greyhounds she neuters and does dentals on before they're rehomed don't get administered any acepromazine.

    Oh yeah. A bunch of stupid dog owners would never know anything about the breed of dog they raise. They should all just disregard whatever their own vets tell them, b/c YOU know it all. Well when you kill someone's dog, remember you were warned. How badly would you feel knowing you had been warned and you did it anyway? There are alternatives out there.
    Last edited by Nezzy; Mar. 22, 2009 at 09:33 AM.



  13. #33
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    Sep. 22, 2008
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    NC
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    Yeah, and I know a bunch of King Charles Cavie breeders who swear feeding them meat is what makes them have heart murmurs. I know some Scottie breeders who believe that parvo is really a herpes virus and comes from the meat in the dog foods. I know a poodle breeder who believes that you can cure parvo with a fish antibiotic.

    So the argument that you know all about the breed you raise is null and void to the majority of vets, who have been in school for 8+ years, and in debt so large they'll be doing good to pay it off in time to retire.

    And as far as being 'warned', I'll still put a lot more stock in what I have been taught in school, from well respected members of the veterinary field, and from real life experience. And really, there's going to be that one dog here or there that has a bad reaction to medications or preanesthetics. My dog is sensitive to Torbutrol, you don't see me on here saying it can't ever be used in ACDs.

    Oh, and FYI, there's usually 3-5 drugs used as part of an anesthetic protocol, so even if there is a reaction or sensitvity it's very very hard to determine which one it was sensitive to. Ace is really probably the safest!



  14. #34
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    Jan. 30, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsegal984 View Post
    Hahaha..... ok, so anybody what to know what really happens when one of these 'breeders' comes in to the clinic and tries to tell us what anesthetic protocol to use? The vet and techs say "oh yes of course, we know all about that!" and then we may or may not change what we were already planning to use. When you leave, or at night over dinner and drinks, we all share stories of the crazy 'breeders' who apparently know more about our job than we do!! Everyone has a good laugh about it, and we go on about our day.

    Didja know, if you really want to get technical about it, that the clinic I worked at one vet routinely gave ace to known seizure dogs? Know how many had seizures? One. Who the owner informed us at pickup needed more phenobarb since he'd been off it now for a week!

    So please, if you would like to seem well informed and discuss this with your vet. But DISCUSS is the key word! Explain that you have some concerns about it because of what you know, and listen to their response. Decide together what risks exist for your animal, and I promise your vet will be more than willing to make sure you're comfortable and stay involved. When you come in making demands about how things are dome you're going to make people more resentful about it. Demanding how things are done implies you know better/more than your vet, and leaves a bad taste in our mouths, but I don't know a single vet who minds having a good discussion with an owner about any aspect of their pets care! We want you and your pet to be happy, but seriously, don't tell us how to do our jobs!

    Like it's often said, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

    Katherine
    Vet Tech
    From someone who is in the human side of medical field, you really should be ashamed of yourself for being so selfish as to laugh at another person who, to you may sound and act daft, but probably has their own dogs interest at heart. Laugh at them? If I EVER found that out about my vet or her staff were laughing at me, you had best sit down when I rip you a new one!

    I am having a problem with my own vet right now as my elderly 13 year old dog who has hip dysplacia just cannot stand on her linoleum floors. Three times now he has collapsed after we waited for near an hour out in the waiting room then another half hour to 45 minutes in the room. I finally told them, you want any blood from him I will pull it and bring it to you, if he has to go in, you WILL take me within 15 minutes or I walk.

    Sorry but my animals come first and fore most and I do research and thankfully my relationship with my equine vet is a lot better than my canine vet, I rarely get her, always her colleague or the "new" vet. She is always too busy doing something else or is just never there. If something sounds off or to you silly, then give that person information or literature to read, educate them and show them or help them understand better.



  15. #35
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Baltimore, MD
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    I gave my thunderstorm phobic dog the amount of ace the vet told me to give her during a storm. I never used it again because she looked equally frightened as without it, she was just less able to move. I think that part scared her even more than the storm.



  16. #36
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    Jan. 18, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    In the hands of someone who has knowledge of the pharmacology of the drug and the condition of the patient, it is contraindicated neither in Chinese cresteds nor in sight hounds.

    There is nothing bizarre about the metabolism of either that would cause it to work differently.

    It is frequently overdosed, as has been alluded to above--the label dose really ought to be drastically lowered.

    And a breeders' forum isn't much higher up the pharmacologic wisdom food chain than a breeders' mailing list, IMHPO.

    It has become increasingly obvious to anyone who's been reading the COTH bb for any length of time that there is a growing percentage of the public that thinks that prescription drugs ought to be freely available by request--or better, a written prescription so that they can be obtained at the lowest possible price, veterinarians don't know anything about the "specialness" of Breed(insert whatever breed of whatever species the poster might own and/or propagate), we keep inconvenient hours, charge too much, etc.

    I expect that some time in the near future, Foster and Smith will start selling the Pet Owner's Home Ovariohysterectomy Kit, which, along with a copy of the Merk Veterinary Manual, a copy of Plumb's Formulary, and 1-800-Petmeds on speed dial will make it possible for us to close 90% of the veterinary schools in the country, thus saving the pet owner not only the upfront costs of such veterinary attention, but also significantly reducing the tax dollars that go towards supporting such obsolete institutions.

    I gotta go feed my horses and get dressed. A colleague is being honored with the distinguished service award by the state VMA tonight, and Baxter Black is the keynote speaker. I'll make sure she knows that the greyhounds she neuters and does dentals on before they're rehomed don't get administered any acepromazine.


    LOL! Nice post.

    This is the problem with internet stuff. Somewhere somebody heard sighthounds are more sensitive to thiobarbituates (which is true) and this morphed to more sensitive to Ace...... Yeah, why don't all the vets just retire on all that money the've been fleecing the unsuspecting public out of for years and let the internet message boards do all the medicine

    Oh, and enjoy Baxter, he's always fun!
    Turn off the computer and go ride!



  17. #37
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    Jan. 18, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatPalomino View Post

    Has anyone taken notice to the reasons why vets spend an average of a decade and the purchase price of a ranchette on school?
    Because they have the mistaken notion that the rewards of taking care of animals will somehow all be worth it...... Reading some of the posts on this board, no wonder most of my classmates are burnt out..... Hey, at least it's still better than dentistry (although I personally LOVE my dentist and will be very disappointed when he reitres...)
    Turn off the computer and go ride!



  18. #38
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    Feb. 6, 2000
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    MA
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    Quote Originally Posted by foggybok View Post

    Oh, and enjoy Baxter, he's always fun!
    He is, and I got to sit next to him at dinner.

    Thought my SO would fall over laughing when Baxter did the prolapsed uterus bit--he had to hose me down one summer day before I was allowed in the house after replacing one...
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    He is, and I got to sit next to him at dinner.

    Thought my SO would fall over laughing when Baxter did the prolapsed uterus bit--he had to hose me down one summer day before I was allowed in the house after replacing one...
    Cool , that must have been a blast! You're lucky!

    My husband has threatened to hose me off at times, but some far the worst it's been is strip before you come in......
    Turn off the computer and go ride!



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