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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun. 26, 2005
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    Default Rule Gurus- Interuptions on course?

    I was eventing my horse this weekend in Texas. This event has train tracks that run parallel to fence line along the cross country course. I was having a spectatcular cross country run on my horse when three strides out from the last fence I noticed the headlights of a train. The fence was right on the fenceline, probably 20' from tracks. My horse said, " NO WAY!! Don't you see that we are fixing to have a head on with a train!" (Which is understandable). Anyway, so I had one stop, then we tried again (as the train is still running along the tracks) and voila, stop number 2. I then trotted a circle, to wait for the train to end. As soon as it did, I jumped the fence no problem and went through the finish line. I was eliminated..................

    So here's the question: Is there a rule about holding during such an interuption? I thought that I read a rule reguarding the fact that you can wait for such an occurance to be over before continuing.
    Last edited by eventer80; Mar. 16, 2009 at 11:25 PM. Reason: Spelling



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Only when the officials declare a "hold".

    The rider can't declare a "hold" on her own.

    What did you get eliminated for?
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul. 9, 2007
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    997

    Default

    THAT SUCKS

    I don't know the answer but I'm curious what you were e'd for too!
    Sarah in New Hampshire
    My Blog - Adventures in Eventing



  4. #4
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    Nov. 16, 2000
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    Concord, NH
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    Wouldn't circling be a 3rd stop? That's the E.

    Unless you called 'Circling, not presenting" the judge may have counted it as a 3rd refusal.

    That sucks for timing!

    While you can't stop the clock for your own personal 'hold' you can diddle around and waste time to wait for the train but you risk time faults.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 1999
    Posts
    850

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    There's a train that runs by the edge of the cross country course and near the show jumping course at Ram Tap in California. It's just bad luck if you happen to be on a young horse heading towards the tracks when the train comes by, or in the show jumping ring. No special hold is ever called.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep. 21, 2006
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    58

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    aww I was sitting on the bank right there when you went by and felt so bad for you!

    if I has been the jump judge I would have given you the benefit of the doubt because your circles were several strides away and the horse was obviously not afraid of the jump itself.

    To add to your question: how close to jump must you be for a circle to count as a refusal?



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 11, 2001
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    Tennessee
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    A refusal isn't about circling or crossing your tracks it is simply a question of did you or did you not "present" the fence to the horse.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    A refusal isn't about circling or crossing your tracks it is simply a question of did you or did you not "present" the fence to the horse.
    Ahem. Read the rule book.

    EV140.1 a (3):

    Third refusal, run-out, or circle at the same obstacle = elimination.

    She had two stops, and then circled. Whether she presented to the fence or not, she circled and crossed her own track. If she had done a snake-like winding re-approach without crossing her track, she would not have been eliminated.
    Volunteer Coordinator, Equiventures, LLC
    and the Sunshine State, Little Everglades,
    & Live Oak Combined Driving Events
    tincupeventing@gmail.com



  9. #9
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2008
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    I would sure admire someone to have the presence of mind to do a "snake-like winding re-approach" in those circumstances!

    And the judge is sitting there, watching alertly and with great interest, thinking, "Hmmm, did she just cross her track during that snake-like, winding re-approach?"

    I think I would have done the exact same thing as the OP: try, try, then think of a way to wait out the train, with my first choice being a circle. Out I would have gone, too!



  10. #10
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Star View Post
    Ahem. Read the rule book.

    EV140.1 a (3):

    Third refusal, run-out, or circle at the same obstacle = elimination.

    She had two stops, and then circled. Whether she presented to the fence or not, she circled and crossed her own track. If she had done a snake-like winding re-approach without crossing her track, she would not have been eliminated.
    I beg to differ. You need to read the rest of the relevant rules

    EV142.3 b
    b. After being penalized for a refusal, run-out or circle, a competitor is permitted to
    cross his original track without penalty in order to make another attempt and may also
    circle one or more times without penalty, until he again presents his horse at the obstacle.
    And the text you quoted is 141.1 a (3), not 140.1 a (3)
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  11. #11
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    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Thank you, Janet. I stand corrected. That is a new addition to the rulebook as of 5-19-2008, and my memory stick version had not had the updater run on it when I quoted (and mistyped the number of) the rule from 141.1 a (3).

    And to GilbertsCreeksideAcres, we have two black flag options on our course that require precisely that kind of snaking, winding approach to avoid crossing one's tracks from either A element to either B element.
    Volunteer Coordinator, Equiventures, LLC
    and the Sunshine State, Little Everglades,
    & Live Oak Combined Driving Events
    tincupeventing@gmail.com



  12. #12
    Join Date
    May. 9, 2007
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    Boerne, Texas
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    So, had the OP made her circle or circles a little further away from the jump the jump judge might have concluded she was not presenting and not eliminated her? The problem was not the circling but the location of the circle?



  13. #13
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    The change that happened on 5-19-2008 was that they took out the words "or fall", since you are now eliminated for the first fall.

    The 1995 rulebook says
    Article 1725.4.3 After being penalized for a refusal, run-out, circle or fall, a competitor is permitted to cross his original track without penalty in order to make another attempt and may also circle one or more times without penalty, until he again presents his horse at the obstacle.
    The 1991 rule book has somewhat different wording, but the same intent
    1754.3 ...However when a competitor crosses his original track when representing his horse after a refusal, runout or fall, it is not counted as a circle and is not penalized. Only the original refusal/run-out/fall is (are) penalized.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun. 26, 2005
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    Cat Spring, TX
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    Sorry it took so long to get back to this thread!!!

    Thanks cabanaboy!! I am not that heartbroken (I wasn't in first or anything) but do think that there should be some leeway when in such a situation. Nobody's fault, just bad timing!!


    The first "run out" was about three strides away from the fence. I did present the fence to him, and he was locked on BUT when he noticed the train (coming straight towards him) he ran out opposite of the side the train was on. The second run out was about 5 strides out when I thought. "Well, maybe my determination can will him over!" And the last was a trot circle in which he was never really presented to the fence, but could have been misconstrued that way.

    He was going so well!!! Just disappointed that the placings (elimination) didn't reflect that!



  15. #15
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    Also, had I noticed that there was a train coming I would DEFINITLY tried the snakey approach. Wish that I was being more observant to my surroundings!!!



  16. #16
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    May. 16, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Star View Post
    And to GilbertsCreeksideAcres, we have two black flag options on our course that require precisely that kind of snaking, winding approach to avoid crossing one's tracks from either A element to either B element.
    I don't doubt you. It has been a long time since I opened the rule book for cross-country. In truth, I was just enjoying your phraseology, and trying to imagine being able to come up with that plan, strategically, during a run when your horse (and maybe you) thinks it looks like you're about to run head-on into a train.



  17. #17
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    Nov. 20, 2008
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    Sorry you got eliminated but it makes for one of those great "Eventing" stories! I got eliminated because my horse thought he was jumping head on into an oncoming train!

    And, look on the bright side -- you will always look for railroad tracks during all of your future course walks!



  18. #18
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    Feb. 5, 2008
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    According to the instuctions for jump judges that I received this weekend (X2) (and also in the past) and your description I am not sure I would have called you for the third refusal (although if you did indeed present to the jump I would have had to - very sadly - give you an E).

    Tough luck...I know it had to have been a huge let down.
    There are stars in the Southern sky and if ever you decide you should go there is a taste of time sweetened honey.



  19. #19
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    HAHA!! A great eventing story!!

    We have been competing there for 10+ years and just this weekend I was thinking....."I guess the train doesn't have that much of an effect on the horses. I have never had a problem with it......"

    So really, that's just what I get!!!



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by eventer80 View Post
    HAHA!! A great eventing story!!

    We have been competing there for 10+ years and just this weekend I was thinking....."I guess the train doesn't have that much of an effect on the horses. I have never had a problem with it......"

    So really, that's just what I get!!!
    We'll all have to chip in and get you a saddle pad with a train embroidered on it!



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