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  1. #1
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    Question Stallion approval of the future - discussion with out fights, please....

    With some registries recognizing the 30DT and some not, what do you feel stallion owners are going to do?
    Edgar made a post on the 30DT thread that go me thinking as he said “giving more stallion owners options”, but are options fair? I mean does that make fair playing ground for stallion quality.
    What the Oldenburg may approve as full stallion quality may not be what the Hanoverian will?
    I think the 30DT is great and I think SilverCreek looking into the 70DT, etc is even better to put us on level playing ground with the Germans. I also agree with the 10Day Test mirrored after my fellow Swedish counterparts, which has proven itself very successful and worthy for a very long time.
    I just see this big gap in the term “approval” because what one registry will consider or deemed worthy to have testicles, another may not.
    Is the overall goal to have a testing that ALL registries will accept, eventually……. (long term goal)…… universal recognition?!?!
    I was talking with a registry representative today which I will not name out of respect, but they explained that there were a few stallion in the 70DT who, even with good scores they would not accept for various reasons.
    I know its all a work in progress, but I’m just wondering everyone else’s educated thoughts on this?! Mostly for those who have a young stallion prospect or an upcoming “maybe” out there, what are your thoughts?
    Last, kudos to those trying to get a program started in the states, it’s really needed in the long run.
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  2. #2
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    We should have answers to many of your questions this week.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
    Visit us on facebook!



  3. #3
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    There is also the issue of no matter how well they do at a stallion performance test or in the show ring at PSG, that some of the registries are looking for a specific type. In the past, stallions fully approved in one registry in Europe were not accepted as approved by some others because of this difference in type and breeding goals. Yes, many stallions are approved and bred across registries. Also, with the EU requirements that stallions approved in one registry must be approved in all enters the picture, even though some registries seem to be able to find a way to filter out some stallions.

    I would like to see the performance requirements standardized, but often a registry does at least want a look-see at a stallion before they make their final decision. That's OK too.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  4. #4
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    Is the overall goal to have a testing that ALL registries will accept, eventually……. (long term goal)…… universal recognition?!?!
    IMO, the goal should be to have a testing that promotes quality but allows the process to be cost effective within the industry.

    As you said, the Swedish have a 10 day test that is not accepted in Germany but Swedish warmblood horses have universal recognition.

    Different studbooks have created different systems that work for their membership base. Tying ourselves to what another studbook requires makes it difficult to create the best system we can create here, and if you add the criteria of making it acceptable to ALL the euro studbooks just becuase Americans have split themselves up among all those studbooks, well, that is a big mountain to try and climb and not necessary.

    If there was a good test, professionally run, economical to the stallion owners and the stallions from the test go on to solid sport careers and good breeding stats, then stallion owners will flock to it - and to the registries that accept it, leaving the registries that don't, without a market here.



  5. #5
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    I'm talking only from the jumper's point of view.

    Each registry has it's own policy to approve a stallion, that's OK.
    The SF for example has no 10, 30, 70 or 100 DT and is still considered as one of the best SB for jumpers.

    I think that a stallion need to prove himself in the ring, doing high level Grand Prix. Only then he deserve the right to breed, then breeders will decide, looking at the quality of the offspring if he deserve to continue to be a breeding stallion.

    Whatever the system to approve a stallion the final decision belongs to the quality of the offspring, I don't know a serious breeder that will test an unproven stallion on his best mares, (except when it's his own stallion)

    So to approve a young and unproven stallion it's not an important issue (he will not ruin the best mare lines), as long as the breeders are educated (they will test him in small numbers with second order mares).

    The only exception comes from very effective marketing, for example, the thousand plus mares presented to Diarado.
    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
    Rudyard Kipling
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Quartz...26013000796803



  6. #6
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    I really don't think you will see a "universal" approval. You have to remember that each registry has an "ideal" that it tweaks at inspections from year to year and because they all have different (to some degrees) "ideals" or goals, that is exactly why there are different registries. I think each registry will continue to evaluate an individual stallion by their own standards and needs for achieving those goals.
    PennyG



  7. #7
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    I think that a stallion need to prove himself in the ring, doing high level Grand Prix. Only then he deserve the right to breed, then breeders will decide, looking at the quality of the offspring if he deserve to continue to be a breeding stallion.
    So, Andy, then you basically propose that no stallion should be allowed to breed until he is about 10 years old? or at least 8???
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  8. #8
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    I didn't get that at all from Andy. What I think he is saying is that whether or not a stallion gets some kind of "approval" as a young horse is irrevelent because the proof is in the pudding.

    If a stallion is approved and he can't perform and his foals prove not to perform, the "approval" is irrevelent.

    If the stallion is NOT approved and he DOES perform and his offspring perform, then NOT being approved is irrevelent.

    It is a great point that the Selle Francias do NOT have stallion testing and are considered some of the best in show jumping -which is what I breed for. But they do have, what is it called? Fountainblue?



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    I didn't get that at all from Andy. What I think he is saying is that whether or not a stallion gets some kind of "approval" as a young horse is irrevelent because the proof is in the pudding.

    If a stallion is approved and he can't perform and his foals prove not to perform, the "approval" is irrevelent.

    If the stallion is NOT approved and he DOES perform and his offspring perform, then NOT being approved is irrevelent.

    It is a great point that the Selle Francias do NOT have stallion testing and are considered some of the best in show jumping -which is what I breed for. But they do have, what is it called? Fountainblue?
    From the perspective of choosing a stallion for my mare, tri is RIGHT ON!

    Seb
    Aca-Believe it!!



  10. #10
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    Tri translated my message, in a clear way. Sorry for not being good in conveying my ideas in English.

    And yes, we have Fontainebleau, and that is the finals of the young jumpers (4, 5, 6 and 7 y/o), at this occasion stallions can be presented for approval.
    Until very recently, only the performance was used to get approval, now they examine the stallion, because they want to improve the "look" of the SF (the amateurs, being 90% of the buyers, are sensitive to a lovely head and a "sexy" look)

    We all know that the "cute" horse has no advantage in the jumper ring versus a "normal" looking one.
    Because I'm looking at horses having the potential for Grand Prix, I don't care about the looks...

    At the end of the day it's the breeder who decide what stallion is going to have his mares.

    Fortunately, there are so many different goals breeders want to achieve, that many very different stallions will be successful at stud.
    And that is good. We need a large gene pool.
    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
    Rudyard Kipling
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Quartz...26013000796803



  11. #11
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    And see we have again, another breed that is still (and has been for a VERY long time at the top of the game)........ being the Selle Francias breed, mostly in Jumping. Yet some would consider their approval process inadaquate (sp?).......
    I have been told many many times that the 10 Day Swedish system is not a way to do this either, but Flyinge has proven its ability to produce top standing horses in the world with their programs.
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  12. #12
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    Stallion licensing is a tricky situation. With all of the breed associations in recent years having different requirements and procedures, it can be very confusing for both breeders and stallion owners. We have officially made a press release on another thread about the formation of the new North American Sport Horse Federation. This Federation is designed to support the North American registries and provide an educational portal for the breeders. We hope to create an avenue for the registries to receive the testing and performance requirements they desire. We do not expect all the registries to come under one "umbrella" of requirements, but will provide the 30/70 day test format for all those that desire to accept it. (Future press releases will announce which registries will do so.) If the registries accept the testing, this does not mean that they are specifically a "proponent" of European testing per say, nor will it signify that they are responsible or report to a European counterpart. They will be doing so to make it easier for stallion owners to follow a testing/performance route that will be accepted by numerous organizations, which will hopefully expand the support for ALL the registries. When there gets to be so many requirements for each individual registry, it can be daunting for the stallion owner and they may begin to be more selective in the registries they will bring the stallions to than they would be if the process was more universal.

    Please let me emphasize that the new Federation will support ALL the North American registries - even if they do not want to accept the testing format. ISR/OLDNA is conducting their own 10 Day test and we support them whole heartedly in their endeavor. The Federation will work very hard to provide education about each testing format and their requirements and purpose. Also, it will be up to each individual association to provide their own performance requirements, pedigree requirements, and conformation/movement requirements. Each of the registries involved with this new Federation have been very positive, encouraging, and forward-thinking with the suggestions that have been made. Even though each registry will always be its own separate entity when it comes to some of the requirements, they are working very hard to be as "universal" as possible. What a great time for American breeders!!! Below is a copy of the official press release:

    "March 6th and 7th marked the final days of the 30-Day Stallion Testing hosted by Silver Creek Farms. Located in Broken Arrow, OK, Silver Creek Farms recognized the need for a universal stallion-licensing format comparable to the 30/70-Day tests held in Germany and accepted by the FN. Silver Creek Farms is establishing a program that will be accepted and embraced by most, if not all of the sport horse registries currently operating in North America. To that end, a meeting took place on March 5, 2009, in which the majority of the North American sport horse registries participated. The American Hanoverian Society, American Holsteiner Horse Association, American Trakhener Association, Belgian Warmblood Breeding Association, Canadian Sport Horse Association, International Sporthorse Registry / Oldenburg North America, KWPN NA, Oldenburg Horse Breeders’ Society, Rheinland Pfalz-Saar International, and Swedish Warmblood Association of North America were all represented at the meeting. In an effort to create a dynamic, progressive, and cohesive performance test, input was requested from all of the registries in attendance. The meeting was extremely productive and the collective brainstorming that occurred from some of the top representatives of sport horse breeding in North America was energizing and refreshing.
    “Our hope,” stated Summer Stoffel, president of Silver Creek Farms, “is to create a unified testing for all sport horse registries. The testings at Silver Creek Farms are conducted in accordance to the rules and regulations of the FN (German Equestrian Federation) and the BMELV (German Federal Ministry).” Barbara Sikkink, manager of Silver Creek Farms, went on to state, “We are trying to create a testing location that is central in North America, and that is not owned, operated, or financed by any registry entity.” The goal is to establish a performance test that will be recognized both in North America and allow reciprocity with the European registries.
    There have been two previous 30-Day tests held at Silver Creek Farms with the third completed this past weekend. The first 70-Day test at Silver Creek will be held this fall. There has been a real need to launch an alternative performance test that would replace the longer 100-Day format. Previous 100-Day tests have put North American breeders on par with Europe and have moved North American breeding programs forward. With the changes made to the test in Europe, and concerns about long-term impact and injuries on young stallions, an implementation of the 30/70- Day test program will address those issues.
    It was the unanimous decision of the representatives present that there was a need for the creation of the new North American Sport Horse Federation (NASHF). This new Federation will act as a unified voice for sport horse breeders and registries in North America. Barbara and Summer will coordinate the Federation’s efforts internally and with national organizations such as the USDF and USEF. Further plans include quarterly news bulletins and an up-to-date website to help breeders keep abreast of all new developments and offer educational tools. There will also be a list of associations who will be accepting the testing format posted on the new NASHF website. Stay tuned for more information!"



  13. #13
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    In the future, I will probably continue to pick my stallions (either owning or breeding) by their performance & that of their offspring as I am breeding another generation to compete PSG and higher. Since I have to ride these beasties, there is a lot more that goes into my decision than a breeding license, permit or test score at 3 or 4 years of age. All of that stuff is just a stepping stone in the career of a top horse. And as it takes quite a bit of time to develop a Grand Prix horse (dressage), I would rather be a bit behind the curve of having the get of a new stallion and go with a stallion that is a 'been there, done that' type of horse, than having the first foals to hit the ground and be biting my nails for the next 6-8 years wondering 'what if?' with a freshman young stallion. In having BTDT, the older stallion has proven that he is A) trainable B) sound C) mentally competent D) gifted 'enough' to preform at a high level.

    Mind you, this is just my opinion.

    Congratulations on a job well done Silver Creek for running and facilitating the new testing procedure. It is great to have the option here in the US.



  14. #14

    Default Amen SilverCreek

    You are amazing and your press release SERIOUSLY is music to my ears! I feel lucky that my first stallion was able to go through the 100-Day Test, which was great and I had no issues with putting him through the test. I now need to get his younger brother approved, and feel at a loss because I don't feel I know which test to put him through. Being registered KWPN, but wanting him approved with other registries as well, it is very confusing and tough to choose what to do with him. Do I send him to the 10 day test and just go ISR/ONA but not be able to go with any other registries? Do I send him through the 21 day KWPN test and not be able to go with any other registries? Do I send him to the 70 day test and HOPE that everyone will accept it? Goodness, I WISH he were a year younger so some of this "stuff" would be more ironed out.

    I commend everyone who is trying to put together a system where hopefully most and preferably ALL major registries will accept it.

    I also feel that just because we have one test for all registries does not mean that the registries have to "loose" their identity on what should or should not keep their testicles. They still have their inspections and can still decide for themselves what "type" they are looking for and are willing to approve. The test would just show the athleticism, temperament, rideability, etc of the stallions. And each registry could then put their own determination on what a "passing score" would be. So what one registry accepts as a passing score does not neccessarily have to be what all registries accept.

    I think this is FABULOUS and I am excited to see where the future takes us. I just hope the future gets here, oh in say... the next month or two. That would be soon enough for me!
    www.vineyardeventing.com
    Home of Worthy Opponent!!!



  15. #15
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    Is there a timeline on when a decision will be made and U.S. breeders have that list of registries? I am sure there are more stallion owners out there in addition to Vineyard who are trying to make their own decisions on which path to take.

    I do believe that it will be the registries that make a clear path that meets the criteria of both quality & cost effectiveness that will have the majority of stallion owners interested in them.

    But having to do a 30 day and a 70 day, the costs still do add up. It doesn't sound like it is as expensive as the 100 day. Does anyone know what the cost for the ISR's 10 day test will be?



  16. #16
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    Financially it is still a very large amount of money.
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  17. #17
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    Vineyard, I think it seems smarter to get him licensed first with the KWPN before you invest in a test just focused on that registry. They licensed 2 or 3 stallions in this country in 30 years so good luck, I probably would not go there. The same thing goes for the ISR, why limit yourself, they will accept a 70 day test, it would be silly if they did not and their own 10 day test does not grant lifetime approval anyway. Just doing the performance test does not get a stallion licensed with any registry and although it is possible to do the performance test first it is so to say putting the cart before the horse.

    Tri, doing both the 30 and 70 day test is more expensive than the 100 day test was. Just the 70 day test may be slightly less. The 30 day test is less but then you have to spend a whole lot more than the 70 day test to get a performance record deemed sufficient for lifetime approval by your chosen registries. I am sure Silvercreek is doing its best to keep tests affortable but these tests do cost a lot of time and money to manage and hire the kind and knowledgable people for a short time to do the test at a level that is acceptable at an acceptable facility. Standing an approved stallion is not going to be cheap anytime soon but being able to do so with a credible record in the US is worth a lot in the end. The registries that do not put on or accept a credible test in the US will likely lose stallions and members to the ones that do.
    www.immunallusa.com
    www.rainbowequus.com Home of stallions that actually produced champion hunter, jumper and dressage offspring and now also champion eventers



  18. #18
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    Thanks for the clarification and support Edgar. There will be so many of your questions answered in our next press release as to costs, decisions, registries accepting the test, what those who won't are trying to do. But, I can tell you that it will be very exciting. The testing format is designed to provide choices. Stallion owners can take their stallions to the 30 day test (which is ideal for those stallions that will be campaigning as sport horses anyway). They will be out of their training program for the shortest period of time, it costs less, and they will be showing anyway. The 30 day test is accompanied by performance results. (Announcements as to what is required from each registry will come from the registries, but the Federation's new website will also have links to the information.) However, if the stallion is unable to meet the performance requirements (he is sick, lame, or other reasons) then he can come back and do the 70-day test for final licensing. That would be the only time when both of the tests would be recommended. Otherwise, it would be sensible to just do the 70-day test. The only time when the stallion would attend both tests would be when the performance couldn't be met. There is so much information getting sorted out between the registries right now. We will make this the easiest and best transition for the stallion owners so they will not feel "surprised". Please be patient with us. This is quite a huge undertaking, but we are working fervently to sort it out. Dates for the 70-day test and costs should be announced within the next month. We are working the date out with the registries so that the majority should be able to send judges from their registry to make the day after the stallion test a final licensing site for multiple associations. Exciting stuff! Please be patient with us! We are working as fast as possible!



  19. #19
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    I would think that the one caveat for doing ONLY the 70 Day Test is that the stallion will need to be a heck of a lot better prepared for the 70 days than some stallions in the past have been going into the 100 Day Test. There will just not be time to 'train' the stallion and get him fit. He'd better be 'there' before he arrives.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  20. #20
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    Edgar, I agree with everything you posted. I thought the numbers posted on the other thread regarding the pricing for the 30/70 route added up to less than the number bandied about for the previous 100 day testings.

    It will be nice to have some transparency - hopefully? - on the fees involved so there isn't the confusion.

    But, having a cost effective way to stand stallions, breed mares, market, track, etc., should be a top goal of all the registries that operate in the U.S. "if" those registries are truly interested in helping build the industry here with an eye to be competitive internationally.



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