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  1. #41
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    There are scammers in all walks of society Gwen, that's true.

    Not all kill buyers are deceitful. They don't need to be; there are plenty of people throwing away horses every day.

    But it's still the responsibility of the horse owner to research who they're giving their animal to.

    Just because someone appears to be a nice person doesn't mean they are.

    The responsibility still falls on the shoulders of the horse owner. If you willingly give your animal away and just believe someone is going to take care of it without actually doing any research, you're an asshat in my book. A naive, trusting one, but still an asshat.

    It appears that Harry's owner did everything by the book, crossing all t's and dotting all i's, and Harry still wound up going for slaughter. The only guarantee a person has is the honesty of the individual taking the horse.
    The plural of anecdote is not data.



  2. #42
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    Jul. 11, 2004
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    The tough part...it's expensive to euthanize a horse...$600-$700 for shots and disposal.

    For some people who just don't care (or who just don't have the money), off the poor horse goes to the auction and the knackers. $300 from the meat man vs. $600 out of pocket is a $900 difference. Sometimes, greed wins out.

    I had a mare die and I fed her to the local hunts hounds...sort've Karmic since she chased after those hounds while foxhunting. I'd've been unhappy having to pay United Protein hundreds to take her away.

    I think more people would do "what's right" if it could be done more cheaply.



  3. #43
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    Trak, a bullet isn't costly, but the person doing the shooting needs to know just where to place the gun barrel for a clean kill.

    I'm lucky; I have enough land where I can bury my horses. Conny is buried on the property, as will be the others when their time comes.

    Renting a backhoe can be somewhat expensive, but living in a farming community, I have access to the farmers and their equipment when I need them.

    I feel badly for the folks who live in suburbia and board, because as you said, euthing and disposal of the body can get very pricey.

    I don't have a problem with horses being fed to the fox hounds. I know it's an old tradition in England, and I find it kind of fitting.
    The plural of anecdote is not data.



  4. #44

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    I don't see selling livestock as greed in any way lots of people do it around here. We call it making a living and enjoy raising livestock.
    Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.



  5. #45
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    If it's true that there was some sort of enforceable lease/buy back/first refusal contract in the OP case, then why are we dinking around trying to make this case about slaughter? This has nothing at all to do with slaughter. If the contract was valid and enforceable and was violated, it makes no difference whatsoever if the horse ended up at a slaughter plant, a petting zoo, or somebody's back yard. That sort of thing should be pursued as a breech of contract issue, not a "boo-hoo, bad, bad slaughter people" sob session.



  6. #46
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    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by county View Post
    But I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to figure out if a horse has no value odds are good the only one that wants it may be the meat man.
    You would think that it wouldn't take a lot of smarts to figure that out, but I'm not so sure.

    We get tons of people contacting the rescue each week wanting us to take in their old, injured, ill, etc. horses that aren't ridable and have extensive health problems. They seem to think we have an endless need for the unwanted and unplacable horses. I know some of this is because too many people in the horse industry claim that rescues exist to catch all the unwanted horses. But that's just not true. Rescues began as a way of helping abused and neglected horses, and that's what some of us still focus on. But people still think we want all their old, ill, injured horses that they don't want to care for.
    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com



  7. #47
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysandbays View Post
    If it's true that there was some sort of enforceable lease/buy back/first refusal contract in the OP case, then why are we dinking around trying to make this case about slaughter? This has nothing at all to do with slaughter. If the contract was valid and enforceable and was violated, it makes no difference whatsoever if the horse ended up at a slaughter plant, a petting zoo, or somebody's back yard. That sort of thing should be pursued as a breech of contract issue, not a "boo-hoo, bad, bad slaughter people" sob session.

    Agree with this. A lot of people have mentioned how unenforceable buybacks are--well, let's get some legal precedence for enforcing them here.



  8. #48
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    Feb. 23, 2000
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    Hudson is now between 28-30 years old. Beautiful 17.2 HH beauty of unknown breeding. He obviously was very much loved in his youth. If you put your hand out, he'll put his tongue in it and leave it there. When we first bought him he would not walk into his stall until you made the first move. Highly annoying until I realized what he was doing. Exceptional stable manners. Incredibly lovely mover with a jump that makes you catch your breath. Where was he purchased? The meat man. That was 13 years ago. Brought him home and started lightly working him. Realized soon enough that his stifles were sticky. Had him xrayed and the damage to both stifles was extensive. The dealer offered us our money back but we opted to keep him. I have since split with my partner, sold the farm last summer and Hudson will live out his life with Splash in their inexpensive, yet exceptionally good care retirement home.

    My point? I would bet Hudson's original owner or the next one or the next one would be horrified to know he was going for meat. Once he was used up and of no use to anyone, where do you think they go? If you think there's a big call for "companion" horses, please think again.

    This isn't about the slaughter issue. It is about responsibility. If you truly don't have a problem with slaughter, so be it. But if you don't want one of yours ending up there, there is only one way to prevent it. Sad but true.

    http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff
    \"If you are going through hell, keep going.\" ~Churchill~



  9. #49
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    Aug. 9, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn View Post
    Hudson is now between 28-30 years old. Beautiful 17.2 HH beauty of unknown breeding. He obviously was very much loved in his youth. If you put your hand out, he'll put his tongue in it and leave it there. When we first bought him he would not walk into his stall until you made the first move. Highly annoying until I realized what he was doing. Exceptional stable manners. Incredibly lovely mover with a jump that makes you catch your breath. Where was he purchased? The meat man. That was 13 years ago. Brought him home and started lightly working him. Realized soon enough that his stifles were sticky. Had him xrayed and the damage to both stifles was extensive. The dealer offered us our money back but we opted to keep him. I have since split with my partner, sold the farm last summer and Hudson will live out his life with Splash in their inexpensive, yet exceptionally good care retirement home.

    My point? I would bet Hudson's original owner or the next one or the next one would be horrified to know he was going for meat. Once he was used up and of no use to anyone, where do you think they go? If you think there's a big call for "companion" horses, please think again.

    This isn't about the slaughter issue. It is about responsibility. If you truly don't have a problem with slaughter, so be it. But if you don't want one of yours ending up there, there is only one way to prevent it. Sad but true.

    http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff
    Absolutely agree. Responsibility is keeping your animals, and horses included, until they die, or providing for their retirement. People who think their lame and unriderable horses will "find a happy home" are deluded. I cannot read the "giveaways" on here where the horses cannot be ridden. Do peple really "think" that someone else would want an unrideable horse?
    Kudos to you for keep your old horse. I love the obits in the chrono mag where the horses/ponies had retirements after years of work.



  10. #50
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    Jul. 20, 2004
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    I used to ride at a barn where the instructor/BO told me she had a directive in her will that all her horses be euthanized upon her death, including the young ones who could probably easily be rehomed. Some may be apalled by that but I respected her immensely for it.



  11. #51
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    Jul. 27, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by county View Post
    I don't see selling livestock as greed in any way lots of people do it around here. We call it making a living and enjoy raising livestock.
    Selling an animal is greedy/wrong if there is some ethical reason you should not and you do it anyway.

    For example, if you have an agreement (whether enforceable or not, if you gave your word you have an ethical obligation) to return the horse to the previous owner if you don't want it anymore, and choose instead to ship it to New Holland so you can squeeze $400 out of it, you're greedy and morally repugnant to boot.

    The talk about the kill buyers is moot. The kill buyer isn't the one who shipped this horse to New Holland. The kill buyer isn't the one who sent him down the road without any ability to keep an eye on how he was doing. The kill buyer didn't decide to "rehome" a horse that they had no more use for and then wash their hands of the situation, placing the responsibility for his end of life decisions in someone else's hands.



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrey View Post
    Selling an animal is greedy/wrong if there is some ethical reason you should not and you do it anyway..
    Perfectly eloquent and precise! This sums up so many of the emmotions and feelings for me on the issue of Horse Slaughter.
    "All life is precious"
    Sophie Scholl



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrey View Post
    Selling an animal is greedy/wrong if there is some ethical reason you should not and you do it anyway.
    It's only inherently "greedy/wrong" to sell an animal when it isn't yours to sell (aka theft). All other interpretations are personal quibbles. There is no universal right to expect others to acquiece to one's own quibbles.



  14. #54
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    So has anyone had any experience at enforcing a buy-back or return clause in a contract?

    It's not my field of law, but I'm not even sure such a clause is enforceable. And if it is, I imagine damages would be limited to the value of the animal. Which, if it went to a kill buyer, would be what? A couple hundred bucks? Doesn't sound like a big deterrent to others, especially given the chances that anybody would get caught in the first place.

    This is why both of mine are staying right outside my kitchen window where we're all within sight of one another.
    Analytical thinking is the first casualty when opposing sides polarize, and that shows lack of common sense on both sides.
    Denny Emerson



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysandbays View Post
    It's only inherently "greedy/wrong" to sell an animal when it isn't yours to sell (aka theft). All other interpretations are personal quibbles. There is no universal right to expect others to acquiece to one's own quibbles.
    Theft is a legal term. If you've given your word that you won't do something, and you turn around and do it anyway, that's hardly a "quibble."

    Or if you lie to get the horse, pretending it will go to a good home when you knew all along it was going to the meat man? Not a quibble.



  16. #56
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    May. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
    So has anyone had any experience at enforcing a buy-back or return clause in a contract?

    It's not my field of law, but I'm not even sure such a clause is enforceable. And if it is, I imagine damages would be limited to the value of the animal. Which, if it went to a kill buyer, would be what? A couple hundred bucks? Doesn't sound like a big deterrent to others, especially given the chances that anybody would get caught in the first place.

    This is why both of mine are staying right outside my kitchen window where we're all within sight of one another.
    There a few states that now recognize intentional infliction of emotional distress in the context of animals. I think a good case could be made that if a promise was broken that Dobbin would be returned or given a good home forever and then sent to slaughter there is 1) emotional distress 2) intention 3) punitives that would make it worth the effort. If the person really suffered damages and distress. Many on COTH would.

    I just do not know if you have to "witness" the event like you do in most cases. I think it would depend on the lawyer's skill and the judge and jury. In such a state it would be colorable, but I do not know if it would get last SJ because the actual slaughter was so remote. For example shooting a dog for no reason right in front of the owners was sent onto the jury, but they witnessed it themselves and that is what caused the "emotional distress"

    When I was in law school it was the last ruling in VA but the next year the SCt overturned it. I am not sure which states are in and which states are out right now, but its a HUGE change in the law.

    Otherwise, lots of states give punitives for fraud. So if you throw in a few $K for punitives on a $300 horse its likely to get around that its risky to do that, but the person would still be paying much more in legal fees they they get back. But there are lots of people who would do that. Spend $5k to get $2 back as revenge and deterrent if they had it.

    Is the clause enforceable? Its a contract. If they sign it they should know what they are doing. Its enforceable for real estate, but animals are in a gray area between real property and personal property right now. So in all likelihood whether its enforceable or not depends on one of us, right now, going into court and convincing a judge it is.

    We live in interesting times.



  17. #57
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    Ambrey, that might be morally reprehensible, but it's the legality of enforcing buy-back clauses and giveaway contracts with strings attached that are in question here.

    If such things are legally unenforceable, then the only guarantee someone has is the honesty and integrity of the person signing the contract. Which, as we all know, might be nonexistent.
    The plural of anecdote is not data.



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
    So has anyone had any experience at enforcing a buy-back or return clause in a contract?

    It's not my field of law, but I'm not even sure such a clause is enforceable. And if it is, I imagine damages would be limited to the value of the animal. Which, if it went to a kill buyer, would be what? A couple hundred bucks?
    What if you can prove the horse was worth more than meat price?



  19. #59
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    How would you go about doing that, Angela?

    I'm curious as to how one proves "worth" for a giveaway. Obviously, if the horse was given away or even sold for a few hundred dollars, it'll be hard to prove it was worth more than meat prices.
    The plural of anecdote is not data.



  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    What if you can prove the horse was worth more than meat price?
    Then you would sue for that amount plus.

    Show records, pedigree, training records, insured value from old policies, and you'd also have an equine appraiser look that information over. But for old horses, unsound, giveaways.... you're looking at meat prices.

    You know what stops a person from suing? Costs and fees. These cases are usually taken on an hourly rate and a large retainer is required.

    Perhaps if the owner was lucky enough to retain an attorney that specialized in ag/equine matters he/she might encounter a different scenario.

    Disputing any matter regarding an animal is usually pretty expensive. For the grieving owner of an old horse that was sent to slaughter.... it would be insult upon injury. Heck - even suing over a fraudulent sale is so expensive it practically precludes a suit for all but 5 and 6 figure horses.



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