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  1. #1
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    Default Non-stamping stallions.

    Are there such things as stallions that do not produce foals that look much like themselves, but instead they tend to produce foals that look like the dam? If there is such a stallion (or stallions) would you use them?



  2. #2
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    Are you asking about stallions from a particular Breed (closed stud book) or from a Registry (semi or open stud book)? There are a lot of genetic heritability issues in your question related to the type of gene pool you are using.
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  3. #3
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    Default

    Yes and no
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
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  4. #4
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    Default

    I'm just asking generally. I think I've seen a very nice stallion whose offspring seem to throw to the mare. He improves the elegance and front leg mechanics of his offspring but the overall look of his youngsters is their dam. What I was wondering is whether this equals a non-stamping stallion and in which circumstances people would consider using a stallion like this? His stock are doing exceptionally well in shows nationally and have been highly rated by some of the best judges of youngstock in the country so throwing to the dam doesn't seem to be holding him back at all!

    I have a mare I'd really like to have a mini-me from. Would a stallion who doesn't stamp his stock be a good idea for trying to get a foal that is similar to the mare?

    Having said that I've recently been to a small stud who have a fabulous broodmare who did a bit of everything and to a very high standard. She has had two youngsters and they are both her double! In her case I don't think it is the stallion that has not stamped the stock. I think it is that her genetics are so strong they have overpowered what the stallion put in. But since she was such an outstanding competition mare having youngsters that are just like their mum is a bonus isn't it?



  5. #5
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    I agree yes and no.
    I have two full sibings and the first filly is the spitting image of her father and the second is a "mini-me' of the dam-even down to the white on her. The first filly is even the same color as her father (blood bay) and the second is a chestnut just like her mom.



  6. #6
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    I was contemplating this exact thing just yesterday and wondering how breeders would respond.

    Personally, if I had an absolutely fabulous all the way around mare that I wanted to replicate I would do it. I would only use a stallion that still had all good features though, just in case. You also have to consider what genetics the offspring will carry that aren't being expressed because those could be passed on further down the line (if breeding the offspring).

    Out of curiosity, does anyone know of some high quality sport horse stallions that allow the mare to stamp the offspring? Since we are always trying to improve our stock I wouldn't think that this sort of stallion would end up being very popular because breeders would see his early offspring as being inconsistent. Are there breeders out there that are looking for this type of stallion?
    Altamont Sport Horses
    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
    Birmingham, AL



  7. #7
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    I think that a stallion can stamp "certain traits" and that is what most do. Some can stamp a certain way of going, a topline, hooves, neck set, front legs, head etc... I had a colt who I had at our inspection in 2007 and he is out of my mare by Galoubet. The inspector saw the colt and asked if he was a Galoubet. I was surprised he knew that. He told me that the head comes from Galoubet. Very interesting. I would call Galoubet a stallion that really stamps his head because this was 2 generations away from the stallion. Same head on the 2006 filly and 2005 colt. Not many stallions produce carbon copies. Sure it can happen and is can happen that your mare produces a carbon copy of herself. But those circumstances are far from the "norm".

    I would suggest to think about what traits you would like to come through on your mare. Then find a stallion that stamps qualities other than those you would like on your mare. But make sure that the stallion has qualities similar to those on your mare that you like as well.

    Good luck in your search...
    http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com

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    Living life for the journey, not the destination.



  8. #8
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    Like the OP, my goal is to produce "mini-me" versions of my mares, with slight tweaks in some cases.

    That makes stallion shopping very difficult because you are always looking for a horse that won't diminish what you already have (though I believe all breeders should look at things that way - that breeding should be about strengthening strengths, not just about correcting weaknesses).

    ETA: A non-stamping stallion is likely to be a genetic hybrid (in the relative sense). But that makes predictability in general more difficult. Best bet for a version of your mare is to go type to type based on what the stallion has produced with mares like yours...that can be tough information to source though.
    Last edited by Waterwitch; Feb. 26, 2009 at 10:22 AM.
    Liz
    Lionwood Irish Draught Horses
    irishdraught.co



  9. #9
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    In my opinion, I would use Bugatti Hilltop. I don't consider him to be a particularly "stamping" sire. What does seem to come through almost without fail, is a great character, trainability, and gift for lateral flexibility (not to mention great pedigree). But I think he lets the overall "look" of the mare come through in (in a very good way) many cases.
    A few examples:

    Scroll down to "Ballerina" and look at her pic, and then click on the dam's name (Wintermaske) and look at her pic.
    http://www.homeagainfarm.com/pages/foals_2004.html

    Look at the pic of Bertone VT, then click on his dam's name in the pedigree for a closer pic of the dam.
    http://www.equine.vt.edu/foals/Bertone.html

    http://www.bryantfarm.com/BoxsterS.htm

    I will let Misita weigh in on her opinion of her stallion, Bravo, but I see much of Bravo's damsire (Gauguin de Lully) in him (which is nothing to sneeze at!!!)



  10. #10
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    In my opinion, a "non-stamping" stallion shouldn't be in the gene pool. I don't care how nice my mares are, I still expect the stallion to add the "icing on the cake".

    In my very first horse breeding experience back in 1982 we (two of my friends joined me in this) bred three very different mares to the same stallion and 11 months later had three little carbon copies of our girls down to head shapes, ways of going, coloring, etc. All three mares could have used certain improvements - none of their foals had them.

    On the other hand, I used to own the Trakehner stallion Veneziano. Talk about a horse that stamped his kids! One of my broodmares now is a Veneziano daughter and you can even see his influence in her foals. As a stallion owner you always get asked by mare owners what the stallion will bring to the equation. Isn't it nice to be able to answer that question with very specific answers? And isn't it nice as a mare owner to know what to expect?

    My least favorite type of stallion is the one who actually takes away from the mare's good points - and yes, there are some of those.

    Just my opinion....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  11. #11
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    Seigi if a stallion produced offspring with the mare's head and build but improved upon their athleticism and front leg movement would you think that was a stallion worth using? Is that what you mean by the "icing on the cake"?

    ETA Waterwitch I agree with you 100%! Trying to find out the info I want about stallion stock which is temperament, trainability and soundness is so very, very hard. I can understand why this is but still wish there was more openness in the breeding business.



  12. #12
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    I must respectfully disagree with the statement that a non-stamping stallion "shouldn't be in the gene pool". Granted, if the stallion is to be "icing on the cake", there has to be some good cake to taste under that icing!

    In fact, the better the mare, the more I would want the stallion to accentuate the good stuff, and not override it. The less desirable the mare...all the more reason to go for a carbon copy of the stallion!

    In a recent thread, it was said that one should not breed a mare if one would be less than happy with a carbon copy of her.



  13. #13
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    If a stallion is approved, you would hope that his qualities are worth breeding. If you want to produce your mare, my suggestion is choose a stallion that corresponds with her phenotype and temperment as closely as possible. Perhaps choose a stallion with a similar gene pool, which will increase your chances of "setting the type" in the resulting foal. I am not a fan of stallions that bring so little to the gene pool that you can't id their produce. Both mare and stallion should enhance and hopefully improve the other's weakness, which is the whole idea of "matchmaking". Maybe you should just save some $$ and clone your mare?
    PennyG



  14. #14

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    In my opinion, a "non-stamping" stallion shouldn't be in the gene pool.
    QUOTE]
    I think I would agree in theory...maybe I don't understand the OP 's question...but the whole point of breeding to a stallion is (I thought)because you hope to replicate what he is in looks or movement or disposition....and that was for improving/upgrading the stock you had already...

    I mean, if you have a mare and you think that no stallion in your breed can improve what she is, than maybe you are in the wrong breed ?? just kidding...

    but honestly, the old breeders of both Welsh Cobs and <gasp> Tennessee Walking Horses would say that the best mares let the stallions shine thru the offspring...making rather the background for the horse to sparkle on...

    jmo

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    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    In my opinion, a "non-stamping" stallion shouldn't be in the gene pool. I don't care how nice my mares are, I still expect the stallion to add the "icing on the cake".
    I agree. Jacques Ververk talking about Ramiro said that this stallion with all the great impact he had on the KWPN gene pool, would not even be accepted in the studbook if he was born nowadays. Each year brings new stallions that are genetically better than their sire and it has to be the same with the mare.

    I never saw a perfect horse as of yet ... but we sure all are working on it, aren't we???
    Suzanne
    bloomingtonfarm.com
    Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse



  16. #16
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    There are a few smart answers on here that aren't particularly helpful. I guess those posters have missed Fannie Mae's post on another thread where she considers Bellissimo M to be a perfect example of a non-stamping stallion? That was the kind of information I was hoping to discover. That very good stallions can be non-stamping, in type at any rate. Since Bellissimo M tends to give his offspring great rideability and trainability as well as allowing the mare to shine through he sounds very much like the sort of stallion I am wanting to use. I'm going to have a closer look at the original stallion who prompted this thread in the first place. His stock have done very well nationally, he himself is flying through the dressage levels and he too could be the sort of stallion to keep the good points of my mare and not detract from her trainability and soundness.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    In my opinion, a "non-stamping" stallion shouldn't be in the gene pool.
    www.DaventryEquestrian.com
    Home of Welsh, ISR/Oldenburg, Westphalian & RPSI approved pony stallions Daventry's Power Play & Goldhills Brandysnap LOM
    Also home to www.EquineAppraisers.com



  18. #18
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    ...then may all your children, and your daughters' children, be exactly like their fathers



  19. #19
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    Just because a stallion doesn't ordinarily show through in their offspring would not be the best way to get a foal most like your mare. Linebreeding would be your best bet.
    PennyG



  20. #20
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    As long as some things are improved over what the mare has to offer, the stallion can be considered to be a "stamping" stallion, especially if he consistently improves the same attributes.

    Stolensilver - your question to me was "Seigi if a stallion produced offspring with the mare's head and build but improved upon their athleticism and front leg movement would you think that was a stallion worth using? Is that what you mean by the "icing on the cake"?

    The answer is - yes, the stallion improved two major things - front leg movement and overall athleticism. That's pretty nice "icing on the cake" in my opinion.
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



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