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  1. #1
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    Default WHO SAID IT ? George Morris The American Jumping Style.

    With Thoroughbreds, one needs to compromise and often skirt the dressage issue; really intensive dressage is not usually necessary.

    On the other hand, seeing our riders back on their buttocks, with their upper bodies on (and even behind) the verticle, often body-riding and pumping away at their horses, is not my idea of style.

    I was reading through some old books, and always found this one to be my favorite. IMO more people should read it! If no one guesses it by 8pm I'll post the answer with book title! GL
    Last edited by OTTB_#1; Feb. 12, 2009 at 08:41 PM.



  2. #2
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    Gordon Wright?



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by OTTB_#1 View Post
    With Thoroughbreds, one needs to compromise and often skirt the dressage issue; really intensive dressage is not usually necessary.

    On the other hand, seeing our riders back on their buttocks, with their upper bodies on (and even behind) the verticle, often body-riding and pumping away at their horses, is not my idea of style.

    I was reading through some old books, and always found this one to be my favorite. IMO more people should read it! If no one guesses it by 8pm I'll post the answer with book title! GL
    No idea... but do have to say, if someone is driving with their seat and pumping to do "dressage" then no wonder they have to "skirt" the issue, especially with a TB.



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by OTTB_#1 View Post
    With Thoroughbreds, one needs to compromise and often skirt the dressage issue; really intensive dressage is not usually necessary.

    On the other hand, seeing our riders back on their buttocks, with their upper bodies on (and even behind) the verticle, often body-riding and pumping away at their horses, is not my idea of style.

    I was reading through some old books, and always found this one to be my favorite. IMO more people should read it! If no one guesses it by 8pm I'll post the answer with book title! GL

    Well, then, I guess Mr Morris ought to get himself more educated about dressage because dressage riders should not be behind the vertical nor pumping away at their horses. My guess is that he is referring to hunter riders who *think* they are "doing" dressage when all they are doing is a disservice to their horse.



  5. #5
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    Whoever said it never passed the info along to Hilda Gurney and Keen apparently



  6. #6
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    You need to read the entire book. Those were just two parts I found interesting. Here it is in more detail.

    The part on pumping is in reference to the imported warm bloods and how they have affected the American Jumping Style and not for the better.

    While not enthusiastic about what they have done to our style, I must say that this type of horse has taught us a lot about riding, especially on the flat. It is interesting to note that continental warmblood horse requires dressage, likes dressage, and flourishes on dressage. One can not succeed with this type of horse without understanding the rudiments of flat work. Thoroughbreds are different. With Thoroughbreds, one needs to compromise and often skirt the dressage issue; really intensive dressage is not usually necessary. North American riders never really understood or appreciated the art of dressage untill the warmblood horse forced us to do so.

    On the other hand, seeing our riders back on their buttocks, with their upper bodies on (and even behind) the vertical, often body-riding and pumping away at their horses, is not my idea of style. Hopefully the good we've learned from these horses, especially about the use of dressage, will outweigh the bad things they have done to our classical style: The tendency towards overriding and getting behind the motion. I do not want to see the American Style of riding jumpers change into something other than that what brought us our great success. And I am sure when the pendulum swigs back toward the thoroughbred horse, our horse of choice, this will not happen. It is up to the professionals in this country to have "blood" horses available for their students and to teach them how to ride such horses correctly. I will always equate "style" with "lightness." And to be able to ride "light" one must have a light-type horse. The thoroughbred or near thoroughbred is that type horse.

    All I can say is this book is amazing! I will try to get a few more quotes, but like I said anyone who rides should own this book. It is truly one of the best written books aside from "The De Nemethy Method" which I will also quote from later. These I would say are the 2 best books for aspiring riders trainers of today.



  7. #7
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    It would help if you would use quotes around the parts excerpted from the book to make your thoughts more readily distinguishable from GHM's.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  8. #8
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    George Morris obviously does not understand dressage if he thinks he needs to skirt the dressage issue with thoroughbreds. Dressage helps every horse when done correctly. However, all too often, I have seen hunter trainers who think they know what they are talking about and they don't. It's sad because the Europeans know that dressage is good for every horse. It's too bad Americans haven't learned that yet. Dressage is not putting your horse in a frame. Dressage is learning to control your horse's engine and that starts from behind the leg.....not in the front in the mouth.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by chancellor2 View Post
    George Morris obviously does not understand dressage if he thinks he needs to skirt the dressage issue with thoroughbreds. Dressage helps every horse when done correctly. However, all too often, I have seen hunter trainers who think they know what they are talking about and they don't. It's sad because the Europeans know that dressage is good for every horse. It's too bad Americans haven't learned that yet. Dressage is not putting your horse in a frame. Dressage is learning to control your horse's engine and that starts from behind the leg.....not in the front in the mouth.
    Haha... I had to laugh... I agree with you on the comment about "Americans" (using quotes because this is a general statement.... There are hunter/jumper people out there that know... but they are few and far between when compared to the rest) not understanding the basic concept of dressage... I own a thoroughbred and ride with a GP dressage instructor once a week.... Not planning on showing dressage... just doing it to improve our performance jumping... Interestingly enough, can't find anyone, trainer wise- to train for the jumpers... The lady I train with for dressage did the jumpers before and has been tremendous help... I wasn't able to switch methods of riding between 2 different trainers especially since my mare does so much better with the "dressage training"... So, to make a long story short, the issue lays with "trainers" "knowing" dressage... and really being clueless... wich goes back to the whole question... of having to get licensed to be a trainer... since it's that way in Europe and they don't seem to be having so many problems!!! So if you know any high level trainer in Tampa, Florida area.... that trains with that in mind... PLEASE let me know



  10. #10
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    Read the whole thing to get the context...and he does say Really INTENSIVE dressage.

    I take that to mean upper level movements, not the dressage basics we all need and use, even on the TBs. No need to drill one trying to teach it something that is not going to add anything to a round around the fences.

    More H/J trainers are familair with correct dressage then you would think by what is posted on here.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Read the whole thing to get the context...and he does say Really INTENSIVE dressage.

    I take that to mean upper level movements, not the dressage basics we all need and use, even on the TBs. No need to drill one trying to teach it something that is not going to add anything to a round around the fences.

    More H/J trainers are familair with correct dressage then you would think by what is posted on here.

    Unfortunately, that has not been my experience. I seen hunter trainers who think it is all about headset and nothing about the engine. *shakes head sadly* It's very very sad.



  12. #12
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    ohhhhhboooyyyyyy.

    "It is interesting to note that continental warmblood horse requires dressage, likes dressage, and flourishes on dressage. One can not succeed with this type of horse without understanding the rudiments of flat work. Thoroughbreds are different. With Thoroughbreds, one needs to compromise and often skirt the dressage issue; really intensive dressage is not usually necessary."

    I have to say, coming from GM, I find this paragraph really ignorant and disappointing. At best, I think he's done a piss-poor job of conveying what he means. At worse, it makes him sounds like he still doesn't get the idea of dressage for ALL horses... even TBs.

    He implies that while you can't succeed on a warmblood without understanding the rudiments of dressage, that thoroughbreds are "different" i.e., that you CAN succeed on them without knowing dick about dressage. And while that may be true to some extent, I think it ignores the fact that all of these horses would be BETTER if their riders knew a thing or two about dressage. GM implies that the TBs are better off not knowing about dressage, and that really sticks in my craw.

    And the concept that you need to "compromise and often skirt the dressage issue"... what horse-shit. This is the same man who lectures about the need for better horsemanship?

    It is as if he is equating "dressage" with a 4th level frame and some cranked up contact. Dressage shouldn't be any different from flatwork. Whether you're doing hunters, eventers, or dressage. GM implies that dressage is a dirty word, and that it shouldn't be used on TBs.

    Findeight, I'm not sure I read that paragraph in the same way that you do. Would you agree that all horses, even TBs, need "Intensive" flatwork? I do. I think 90% of your schooling should be on the flat... even if you're doing h/j. What is that if not "intensive"? And while I agree that a hunter will never need to know how to piaffe (and even that you might make a particular TB crazy trying to teach him collected movements), good flatwork should still be equated with dressage. If what he meant was merely that TB hunters don't need to know how to piaffe, he could certainly have said that. To me, "intensive" is a different word than "advanced"

    I think this sums up GM's perspective: "I do not want to see the American Style of riding jumpers change into something other than that what brought us our great success." I'm sure he doesn't, because then it might mean that, horrors, there are other ways to ride a horse well beyond the patented GHM approach?

    I love TBs. They are my horse of choice. They're light and forward, and many of them do require a certain type of ride. But I have NEVER EVER meet a single one that didn't respond positively to dressage (when done right). While they might always enjoy a good gallop, good dressage requires lightness and tact. That seems to be the part GM doesn't quite get. He thinks if you're sitting upright, or have your horse on the bit, you must be riding "heavy". I think its a shame he perpetuates this straw man argument.

    I have seen more times than I can count, hunter, jumper, and event riders bring their jazzed up unhappy TBs to my current dressage instructor's farm. They are the quintessential "hot TB" who is unhappy and crunched into a frame. (I'm not knocking h/j/or event riders generally, by the way, but usually by the time they make it to this lady, its because they've been doing it wrong for a long time, and their horses have had it). And time after time after time, I see this woman get on these horses, and work them so compassionately, and so skillfully, that you can almost see the horse going, "ahhhhhhh... this doesn't hurt/frighten me so much...". And yes, she sits upright on them.

    For shame George.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Read the whole thing to get the context...and he does say Really INTENSIVE dressage.

    I take that to mean upper level movements, not the dressage basics we all need and use, even on the TBs. No need to drill one trying to teach it something that is not going to add anything to a round around the fences.

    More H/J trainers are familair with correct dressage then you would think by what is posted on here.
    GM started out as a dressage rider Little known fact. He is not anti-dressage.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinelaw View Post
    GM started out as a dressage rider Little known fact. He is not anti-dressage.

    If that is really true, and he understands it even a little bit, I do not know how he could've written that dreck.



  15. #15
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    O.k I said read the whole book!! He is brilliant and conveys what he means. You need to read the whole book to understand the concept.

    If you read the book from start to finish I think many of you would do a 360 on there negative opinions.

    You know what they say "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".



  16. #16
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    That's what I was thinking... that the quote by itself could sound out of "context"...
    Either way, love GM and most of the time, his opinion... :-)



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rileyt View Post
    If that is really true, and he understands it even a little bit, I do not know how he could've written that dreck.
    Well said.



  18. #18
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    Wink Digging out my copy right now....

    from page 7, chapter 1, The Eveolution of the American Jumping Style....

    "The French invented classical riding. Their genius, coupled with the greatest sense of style and beauty in the world, along with access to all kinds of equestrian sport- racing , hunting, dressage, show jumping, eventing-provided the world with a system of riding, an ideology and methodology, that can't be bettered. The French School, be it manege, jumping, or cross country, solves every problem one can ever come across with a horse, and in the simplest way."

    A wonderful book, it really explains the history and evolution of forward seat riding. God bless George Morris for writing this book.

    Okay, here's another great quote from page 9,
    "....The American School is a complex conglomeration of histories, peoples, countries, ideas, and horsemen. One must first understand the roots, background, and evolution of American horsemanship even to begin to study or understand, let alone learn to do, what we do."

    It's too bad more people don't spend to study "the greats" who came before George. Ohh.. I'm getting old! (smile).
    What's the scoop?



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinelaw View Post
    GM started out as a dressage rider Little known fact. He is not anti-dressage.

    Linda Parelli used to ride Dressage too. Doesn't mean she totally gets it anymore.



  20. #20
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    Red face Sorry to maybe get off subject....

    Quote Originally Posted by chancellor2 View Post
    George Morris obviously does not understand dressage if he thinks he needs to skirt the dressage issue with thoroughbreds. Dressage helps every horse when done correctly. However, all too often, I have seen hunter trainers who think they know what they are talking about and they don't. It's sad because the Europeans know that dressage is good for every horse. It's too bad Americans haven't learned that yet. Dressage is not putting your horse in a frame. Dressage is learning to control your horse's engine and that starts from behind the leg.....not in the front in the mouth.
    Excuse me....

    But have you ever been to a George clinic, or one with Anne Kursinski? You'd see "engines engaged"...... and no talk about headset.
    Maybe if those hunter trainers you are talking about could be convinced of the importance of studying the foundation of the discipline that they promote and teach, things would be better.....
    What's the scoop?



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