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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by fivehorses View Post
    The NH state veterinarian closed a horse rescue down a few years ago due to mud.
    Mud is not good for horses, and standing it 24/7 without being able to get out of it is definitely not good for horses.
    The state vet felt mud constituted neglect, thus he threatened to close the rescue down, but they volunteered to close.

    I live in the northeast where mud has a season...actually a few.
    I feel people who think this is normal and do not clean their paddocks, where manure is produced, thus adding to the muddy, mucky mess are not practicing good animal husbandry.
    Scraping away manure and mud and putting down an inorganic base(fines or stonedust) is necessary to keep horses from standing in mud.

    Mud can cause all sorts of health problems from white line, scratches, abcesses, cellulitis/lymphangitis, etc

    I am no fan of mud, since it really isn't 'mud' but muck.

    If mud is bad, then people living in the Pacific North west are screwed!!!
    It rains there three times a year. Spring, fall and winter. Hard to avoid mud there.



  2. #42
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    Dec. 5, 2008
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    I believe the OP stated that where they are at they don't normally have mud due to the composition of the soil. If that's the case and she really feels like the horses are standing in manure, she should report it, as long as she is certain she isn't suspecting abuse because she doesn't like the neighbors. I live in a fairly urban suburb and if I hear loud music keeping me up at night, I am going to call the police. I am not knocking on the door of someone I don't know. I have a pleasant relationship with the neighbors on either side, but I don't know neighbors 4 or 5 houses down. You just never know what kind of situation you're getting yourself into. You can open yourself up to retaliation from a crazy with a gun.



  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by knitgirl View Post
    I believe the OP stated that where they are at they don't normally have mud due to the composition of the soil. If that's the case and she really feels like the horses are standing in manure, she should report it, as long as she is certain she isn't suspecting abuse because she doesn't like the neighbors. I live in a fairly urban suburb and if I hear loud music keeping me up at night, I am going to call the police. I am not knocking on the door of someone I don't know. I have a pleasant relationship with the neighbors on either side, but I don't know neighbors 4 or 5 houses down. You just never know what kind of situation you're getting yourself into. You can open yourself up to retaliation from a crazy with a gun.
    Yeah, but the "loud music" analogy would only apply here if you're deaf and you THINK the neighbors are blaring their music and you STILL insist on calling the cops, because well, they DO have a stereo and you THINK they're "deadbeats", so of course, they have to be doing something wrong...

    ETA: you get "mud" any time you have water entering the soil faster than it drains away. Even in sand, it's possible to have hardpan not far below that lets water stand around where the sand layer is thinner. The only difference in mud properties is whether it goes through a "sticky paste" phase between being wet and dry.



  4. #44
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    Dang, if neighbors were blaring music all night I wouldn't have to knock on their door. I'd pick up the phone and ask them to lower it not pick up the phone and call the cops... sheesh... With all that cops have to deal with that is legitimate crime or violence, people are calling because their neighbor who they don't know and are fearful that they might get hurt. I live in a good area, but there is gang activity, I know my neighbors. I live alone most of the year with two dogs, so knowing my neighbors is a good thing. You never know what good people lurk next door



  5. #45
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    Jul. 24, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkers On View Post
    One would assume that neighbors are amicable, and as such ought to be able to have casual conversation and the topic comes up.

    Maybe I live in a dream world where humans actually interact with their neighbors in a friendly fashion, And helped each other out.. imagine what a crazy world that would be!
    Actually, I don't make the assumption that neighbours are amicable and have casual conversations. I assume that unless the people are in extremely close proximity, they don't know each other.



  6. #46
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    Wow. I've lived in the city and in rural communities and I always know the people in my area no matter how many sections of land separate us. Maybe that's just my gregarious nature.. which is hilarious if you knew me...



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by saultgirl View Post
    Actually, I don't make the assumption that neighbours are amicable and have casual conversations. I assume that unless the people are in extremely close proximity, they don't know each other.
    Hmmm, interesting.

    I am new to where I live.

    I know I do not like my closest neighbor. I would not say I KNOW my other neighbor (who is not really very close). But I know them well enough to know they are not psycho and if I was even slightly good at remembering names I would know their names.

    And I am for sure not the type to go out meeting people.

    I think most people have a pretty darn good idea of what their neighbors are like.



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Hmmm, interesting.

    I am new to where I live.

    I know I do not like my closest neighbor. I would not say I KNOW my other neighbor (who is not really very close). But I know them well enough to know they are not psycho and if I was even slightly good at remembering names I would know their names.

    And I am for sure not the type to go out meeting people.

    I think most people have a pretty darn good idea of what their neighbors are like.
    So if you had a reason to suspect child abuse/neglect, would you speak to the authorities, or would you approach your neighbours to have an amicable conversation about it?

    If you approached your neighbours directly about it, had an amicable discussion, and still felt it was necessary to contact the authorities, would you still report it?



  9. #49
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    OMG, we go from husbandry issues to child abuse? Seriously and no offense you need to get happy. Not everyone is evil.
    IF you KNOW your neighbors there likely isn't reason to "suspect" anything. Beaver Cleaver... the best of times!
    Seriously, I live in a gang infested area.. God bless Los Angeles, but I know I have good people in my neighborhood. I've made friends and it is a worthwhile thing to do. My neighbors have 2 dogs that bark all day. I am gone sometimes for 6 weeks. I ignore the dogs, the keep watch on the house. I let them use my router.. I am golden. Do unto others and all that jazz. It works! I know, it's shocking!



  10. #50
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    So if you had a reason to suspect child abuse/neglect, would you speak to the authorities, or would you approach your neighbours to have an amicable conversation about it?

    If you approached your neighbours directly about it, had an amicable discussion, and still felt it was necessary to contact the authorities, would you still report it?
    Child abuse? No...I would contact authorities if I had a strong suspicion of actual child abuse, not the contact the neighbors.
    But for livestock neglect suspicions, I would talk to the neighbor. Livestock and children are two totally, completely and unarguably different things.
    Now most people on an equine BB are going to be very attached to their horses...but many to most people in general may not be. So it's not the hot button issue to bring up a good natured conversation about livestock care that it would be to bring up child care.
    FWIW on the neighbor issues...neighbors are only strangers if you allow them to be. When you have a farm...it's key to get to know your neighbors. Not saying you have to like them all...but I rely on my neighbors to call 911 if they see me face down in the dirt in the paddock or to grab my horse if it trots up their driveway and I also return my neighbors horses (well, it's usually the mule getting loose) when they come visiting and go remove their nuisance wildlife for them and they watch out for my daughter while I watch out for their kids.
    I was here two weeks and knew all my neighbors. Made it my job to do that...didn;t want to live somewhere that I had to worry about the neighbors because that's no way to live. So went knocking on doors and introducing myself and chatting nonstop until they agreed to be on friendly terms with me, mwuahaha! And even the supposedly "bad" neighbors I was warned about by everyone else turned out to be fine...they seem to appreciate being treated nicely and didn;t even have a fit when I turned the hose on their teenaged sons when the boys tried to spin donuts on their ATVs in my manure pile. Heck, even those boys laugh about it now.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by saultgirl View Post
    I disagree. If an individual suspects a problem, it is absolutely not their responsibility to investigate on their own to be sure there is a problem before reporting it. If an individual suspects abuse, it is their responsibility to report it to the authorities. The authorities are the ones who make the judgement call as to whether conditions are acceptable.

    I am operating under the assumption that the priority is the well-being of the animals (i.e. not someone trying to cause trouble for people they don't like!).

    I don't believe any good would come from knocking on someone's door and talking to them about it directly. It will then immediately become personal, and possibly DANGEROUS if you are dealing with someone with, for example, a mental illness, severe stress, depression, etc.

    Yes they just L-O-V-E going out on calls that people assume abuse when it's just M-U-D


    The Authorities are people - just people. People who are busy and under staffed with real neglect to address. This would be lumped with the calls about "blind folded horses"(fly masks), and horses with "casts on in the pastures"(leg wraps), and "the electric fence shocks when someone was trying to feed carrots to the neighbors horses. So that means the fences are in humane" calls that come in all the time.

    And do not forget all the volunteers that do the inspections. Volunteers that have jobs and must take time off of work and family to inspect muddy "abused" horses.

    PATHETIC!



  12. #52
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    Jul. 31, 2008
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    Good god, people. She said it was MANURE! Not MUD!



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzaster View Post
    Good god, people. She said it was MANURE! Not MUD!
    They just do not understand that. We do not have mud here. In order for water to stand and create mud you have to either pay for expensive top soil or mix the sand with lots and lots and lots of organic matter.

    I seriously doubt anyone paid lots of $$ to make mud. They are standing in their own manure and pee and somewhere way underneath that is sand and clay. Even if you have clay close to the surface it still wont make mud as people are familiar with in places that are not sand hills. It just makes a pond for awhile and then dries out again. Without a hell of a lot of manure it will not churn up into mud. If there is that much manure there are too many horses in too small a space.

    So those horses are basically standing in a large outdoor filthy stall that is never cleaned and they can never get away from.

    It may not be abuse, but it is neglect and can lead to very bad problems. We had a pretty long thread about whether it was OK to skip stall cleaning on Sunday. This is never. Is never OK with us now? Do we do never now?



  14. #54
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    Exactly, equinelaw. What is OK about 20 horses standing around in their own manure and urine? I say report them for neglect. She also mentioned they were on the thin side. I'm sure that hay doesn't taste very good laced with urine and poop!



  15. #55
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    It's speculation. Who is to say that the horses are eating off the ground? Are there hay racks in the run in?
    I've worked on big TB farms that you can pick a run in and a paddock in the winter, but come spring and melting + rain and forget it, unless you want to be face down in a sea of filth or get your tractor stuck.
    The world is not a perfect place and sometimes one has to improvise. Even if it means our horses have a load of poop in their run in.
    One of the horses in my care, lives to stand and lie in his own pooh. No matter how dilligent the groom is he is ALWAYS standing in a pile, or has had a pooh pillow. His feet are great! He smells rather like poop, but a bath always helps that
    Clearly, animal control was called and they didn't agree that the horses were in an abusive situation or living in a pig pen, or we likely wouldn't be having this thread.



  16. #56
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    So you are saying the horses you worked with had nowhere to go but the run-in sheds filled with manure or did they have other places to go? I am confused.

    My not overstocked sand paddocks have areas where all the horses poop. I do not force them to stand there, so they can or cannot walk in the poop.

    Not having anywhere dry and clean is poor management. I do not care where you live. It may or may not be abuse depending on local law, but its bad horsemanship and poor planning.

    OP--standing in filth, poor weight, blankets on in heat of the day, round bale in the muck. This is all fine and dandy?



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinelaw View Post

    My not overstocked sand paddocks have areas where all the horses poop. I do not force them to stand there, so they can or cannot walk in the poop.
    My not over stocked muddy wet clay paddocks have an area where one horse manures, he is neat. The other horse is a pig and seems to on purpose like to manure where she likes to stand and tromp it every where.
    And can you believe it, she stands in manure and filth all day long . How evil is that?

    This time of year I clean all accessible spots (so the majority of the sacrifice paddock is not cleaned but stalls and run in are cleaned) long before I am sure someone like the OP would be up in the morning (unless she too gets up before 4am) and after dark in the evening. So if my neighbors were busy body know-it-all types, no matter what time they drove by during the day they would see that darn piggy filly standing in manure and filth. It is her goal in life.

    I think the OP made it clear by her posts that she truly does not like these people.



  18. #58
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    So? What does that have to do with anything? It would be a lot sadder if she did like them and had to report them. But personal feelings to not cause muck to build up. Muck building up might cause one to dislike a person though.

    I do not know the people. I already do not like them



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    This time of year I clean all accessible spots (so the majority of the sacrifice paddock is not cleaned but stalls and run in are cleaned) long before I am sure someone like the OP would be up in the morning (unless she too gets up before 4am) and after dark in the evening. So if my neighbors were busy body know-it-all types, no matter what time they drove by during the day they would see that darn piggy filly standing in manure and filth.
    If one of your neighbours, or any passer-by, saw your horse standing in mud and was concerned for it's welfare, would you prefer that they come knocking on your door to ask you questions about it? Would you explain yourself to them?

    If someone was concerned about what I was doing with my horse, I would really feel that it was none of their business and invite them to contact the humane society if they had a problem. I don't feel that I need to explain anything to anyone!



  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by saultgirl View Post
    If one of your neighbours, or any passer-by, saw your horse standing in mud and was concerned for it's welfare, would you prefer that they come knocking on your door to ask you questions about it? Would you explain yourself to them?
    I'd hand the nosy bastard a shovel and tell 'em that if the situation bothers them all that much, they can apply themselves to the business end of the shovel and remedy the situation. I reckon they'd decide right quick that they weren't THAT bothered.



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