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  1. #1
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    Default Spinnoff - U.S. Sport Horse Breeders' Challenge Awards (VERY, VERY LONG)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alix;3758736 originally posted to Challenges Facing NA Sport Horse Breeders
    The registries are all beneficial and should be encouraged and we are there with that. But now that we have our ducks in a row with papers and pedigrees galore, we need to take it to the next level. There is a big disconnect between the breeding and the performance worlds and it needs to be bridged. Once you sell that lovely youngster you bred, to a serious competitor the credit of breeding it usually dissappears often along with its pedigree. Next time you see a really fantastic horse walk out of a show ring ,especially in the hunters, go up to the rider and ask what is its pedigree and nine times out of ten they will not have a clue. Sadly when that horse is no longer and they are looking for a replacement, wouldn't it be wonderful if they had that information and could contact the breeder directly. We need to inspire USEF to give American Breeders and thus the horse industry in general, a big shot in the arm and recognise the breeders and the horses pedigree in the show catalogues and when the horse is announced when they win a class. In the racing programs the pedigree is there and the breeder, so why not in the horse show programs. It takes up almost no room at all. Outrageous you say. Ok then, lets look at it finantially.
    The horse world is going to shrink in the future for many reasons and one way of pumping energy back into the industry is to keep American breeders going and producing good horses.There is actually a post now on the breeders forum that asks "should we breed horses in America". My gosh look how cowed American Breeders are!! We need to totally reverse this situation. How?? by educating the other side of the horse world that we exhist. It costs USEF nothing to the disseminate information but the payback is tremendous for them and us. Down the road it will make for bigger shows, more money for entry fees ,stabling, motels etc etc. Horse purchace money will stay here on this side of the pond, more people can afford a well bred horse, more people will continue to show and it goes on and on. This is what has to be done and it is up to the breeders to recognise it and take action. Does anybody hear me?
    I heard you (any many others) loud and clear, and have the following response. I apologize for the length of this post, but I don't know any way to have attachments, or to post a document file, so I am posting the entire presentation here. The following will be presented to the Awards Committee, at the American Hanoverian Society Annual Meeting this weekend in Reno, Nevada.

    INTRODUCTION

    I have been an Adult Amateur Dressage rider off and on for over 40 years, a sport horse breeder for over 30 years, and a Hanoverian breeder for over 10 years. During this time, I’ve noticed that many of the problems facing sport horse breeders in the U.S. today are the same as those that existed when I bred my first mare many years ago. And it appears we have made little progress toward solving these problems. I think this is because breeders have failed to look beyond registry differences and focus on the things we have in common; and we have failed to work together to solve common problems.


    A COMMON PROBLEM – No Sport Horse Performance Tracking System

    The idea that we need a performance tracking system is not new. At an ASHA convention in the 1980’s, Dr. Walter Hartwig, director of horse breeding in Germany, stated “either you start a national performance recording system with pedigrees or you keep on buying horses from us.” Performance tracking has been the subject of countless discussions since that time; but here we are twenty years later, and we still have no performance tracking system, and we still import hundreds, if not thousands, of sport horses from Europe every year.

    American sport horse marketing is in the stone age when compared to other countries. Most U.S. sport horse breeders agree that we must develop some method for tracking the performance of the horses we breed. Without a breed related performance tracking system, it is difficult, if not impossible, for U.S. breeders to demonstrate that they are breeding quality sport horses; and as a result U.S. sport horse $$$ continue to flow to Europe in increasingly large numbers. Note I did not say we do not breed quality sport horses, because I think we do. What I am saying is that we have a difficult time demonstrating to the buying public that we breed quality sport horses, and in turn, a difficult time marketing these horses in the U.S.

    And we are getting no help from the rest of the sport horse industry. Once a horse leaves the breeding farm the knowledge of that horse's pedigree usually disappears, and the breeder’s role in the success of that horse in competition tends to be forgotten. When a horse is entered into a recognized show in the U.S., the pedigree is not required on the entry blank. When a horse wins a class the announcer does not announces the horse’s sire, dam, and breeder. When a horse wins a big class and there is money awarded, there is no percentage that goes to the breeder. And when year end awards are announced and publicized, there is no mention of the sire, dam, or breeder. And who loses the most because of this, . . . the breeder!

    Lately I have overhead numerous conversations at sport horse competitions, where trainers and/or riders give themselves total credit for the making of a successful show horse. They actually belittle the breeder's role in presenting them with a well bred, correct, naturally talented animal that carries a rich heritage of successful relatives in its family tree. So breeders need to take the bull by the horns and become proactive in turning things around.

    While the current efforts of the various equestrian organizations to track competition results are noteworthy, from a breeder’s perspective, significant pieces of the puzzle are missing. There is no 1# horse tracking system; a breed declaration statement is only required in a limited number of cases when competing a horse in the U.S; and breed registration numbers are not currently required nor are they automatically linked to Horse ID or life recording numbers issued by USEF, USDF, USHJA, or USEA.

    I'm aware that there are many who object to the establishment of a 1# life recording system for horses, and that is exactly why I am suggesting we approach this problem from a completely different direction. My proposal does not require a 1# recording system. My proposal is for the establishment of a new awards program.

    THE AWARDS PROGRAM – A Carrot That Leads to Performance Tracking

    I believe that IF we develop a U.S. breed based awards program that results in more horse registrations and more entries at competitions (which translates into more income for USEF, USDF, show managers, etc.), THEN a logical outgrowth of this program will be the development and implementation of a performance tracking system for U.S. bred sport horses. In my opinion, the major challenge to development of a performance tracking system is motivating stakeholders to participate in the program. Breeders need to answer the question "what's in it for me”, in order to gain the support of those impacted by such a system. For the past several months I have been working on the development of an awards program that I believe addresses these concerns.

    The purpose of the U.S. Sport Horse Breeders' Challenge Awards program would be:
    • To encourage performance tracking of U.S. bred sport horses;
    • To encourage U.S. sport horse breeders to register with their respective breed organization, and life record their foals with USEF;
    • To encourage horse owners to:
      • register their horses for competition with their respective equestrian organization (EO) (USEF, USDF, USHJA, USEA, etc.) AND
      • when registering with said EO to submit a Breed Declaration Form. The Breed Declaration Form would require the owner to provide:

      • the horse’s competition name,
      • the horse’s USEF, USDF, USHJA, and/or USEA number,
      • the owner’s name, address, phone number and email address,
      • the owner’s USEF, USDF, USHJA, and/or USEA number,
      • the horse’s participating breed registry or organization (PO),
      • the horse’s breed registration number, and
      • a copy of the appropriate breed registry papers
    • To encourage show managers and equestrian organizations to record results and track performance of horses for which a Breed Declaration Form has been submitted.
    • To encourage owners and riders of US bred sport horses to register, breed declare, and compete these horses;
    • To highlight and publicize the successes of US bred sport horses;
    • To encourage and promote breeding and sales of US bred sport horses;
    • To encourage the use of US based sport horse stallions.
    • To recognize and reward sport horse breeders in the US, their horse owners, trainers, and riders.


    If the awards program worked as I envision, it could motivate:
    • competitors by offering significant prize money
    • show managers by encouraging more entries by more competitors
    • equestrian organizations by encouraging more registrations/life recordings for horses and more owner/rider registrations by competitors
    • breeders by providing a means for advertizing successful offspring
    • sponsors by getting their name out in front of a wider audience


    Of course, the down side is that this program may also cause more work on the part of the show managers and equestrian organizations, but I'm trying to develop a program that utilizes the results reporting requirements and systems that already exist, and could use the breed registry/organizations to help share any additional administrative burdens. Hopefully we would devise a fair distribution of costs/benefits.

    By providing relatively significant prize money, I believe owners/riders of U.S. bred sport horses will be motivated to register/record their horses, file a breed declaration, and compete for these awards. If more owners/riders register and compete, this means increased revenue for USEF/USDF and show managers; i.e., the benefits of the program should outweigh the administrative costs. The key is offering significant prize money.

    As explained below, to fund the pilot program would cost over $70,000 in prize money alone. And I'm not yet convinced that $1000 for Champion and $500 for Reserve in each Region is enough $ to make the program work as a performance tracking system. It has already been suggested to me that we would need to offer cash incentives down to at least 5th place in order to get the volume of entries needed; so that puts the costs even higher. Nonetheless, I think breeders may be willing to commit to this level of support IF they truly believed it would result in a viable performance tracking system for U.S. bred sport horses.


    COMMENTS AND CONCERNS:


    I’ve included herewith a draft description of the proposed awards program. As you can see, there are details still to be worked out but I believe it's a start. Ultimately I could see the program expanding to include all levels of dressage competition, and the additional disciplines of USHJA, USEA and perhaps others.

    Feasibility:
    I would especially appreciate input regarding the workability of this proposed program. How might this awards program augment or detract from existing awards programs designed to accomplish similar purposes? Would it place an undue burden on competitors, show managers, equestrian organizations, breed organizations, etc. If so, in what way, and what could we do to minimize those impacts?

    Qualifying Issues:
    What would be the best way to establish qualifying score criteria? It should be as broad as possible in order to encourage recording and breed declaration of the maximum number of U.S. bred sport horses. Ideally we would initially consider scores from all rides, Training – 4th Level at USEF licensed shows. But, if this is not feasible from a recording/administrative point of view, what would be feasible?

    Funding Issues:
    Funding such an awards program would be a concern. I estimate that prize money alone for such a program would be on the order of $70,000 (i.e., 5 levels x 9 Regions = 45 Regional Champions @ $1000 each = $45,000 PLUS 45 Regional Reserve Champions @ $500 each = $22,500, PLUS National Champion = $1,500 and National Reserve Champion = $1000). In addition to the prize money, there would be the cost of awards, money for advertising, etc. How could this money be raised?

    Assuming that initially breeders had to contribute ALL the prize money, that means we are looking at 70 breeders contributing $1000 each (probably not a realistic expectation), or 140 breeders contributing $500 each (also may not be realistic). But, what if 700 breeders contributed $100 each, or 1,400 breeders contributed $50 each? Are these combinations equally unrealistic?

    How many sport horse breeders are there in the U.S? The AHS roster alone lists about 2500 members; what % of those members are truly breeders, and of those, how many are active and would be willing to contribute? And what about other sport horse breeders? There are 23 other "warmblood breeds" listed on the eWarmbloods forum index. How many members are there in each of these organizations, and how many of them might be willing to contribute?

    Does this awards program have the potential to be of sufficient benefit that breeders and/or breed registries and organizations would be willing and able to contribute the funds needed to ensure the success of the program?

    Sponsorship Issues:
    What about sponsorship? Could other individuals/organizations be persuaded to contribute to this program? Why would someone choose to become a sponsor (i.e., what benefit would they receive for their sponsorship?

    OPPORTUNITY FOR INPUT
    If you would like to participate in a discussion of this matter, please join us at the AHS Open Awards Committee meeting on Saturday morning at 10:15a.m. All constructive comments/criticisms, suggestions and assistance will be welcome. IF enough people express interest and a willingness to participate, THEN perhaps the time has come for our contribution to the U.S. sport horse industry to be acknowledged!
    Hope to see you on Saturday.



    DRAFT
    US Sport Horse Breeders’ Challenge Awards
    Program Description

    Designed to recognize horses bred in the United States that achieved high scores throughout the competition year at Training through 4th Levels of dressage. Unlike other breed awards programs, this program would focus attention on all sport horses bred in the United States and competing in this discipline.

    General Rules
    • Horse must be declared with USEF for a participating U.S. sport horse breed registry/organization (PO) by September 30 of the award year in order to participate in the award program. Horses already declared will remain declared for that organization.
    • Horse and owner must meet all requirements of the PO
    • “Open” is the standard division and “1st through 4th Level” are the standard levels for Sport Horse Breeders’ Challenge Awards


    First, Second, Third, and Fourth Levels
    • Minimum of eight scores:
      • From four different judges
      • From four different competitions
    • Including two at 58 percent or higher from highest test of the level
    • Median score of 60 percent or higher to qualify


    Eligibility

    Horse must:
    • Have a USEF Lifetime Recording when scores are earned. Horses with only HID numbers are not eligible.
    • Have a Breed Awards Declaration Form on file with the USDF and be entered in qualifying and championship classes under their official breed recorded registration number and ownership. Transfers of ownership or lease registration for breed recorded horses must be recorded with the applicable PO, and must be completed prior to the competition in order for the horse to compete under the name of the new owner or lessee.
    • Be U.S. bred, owned, and registered which is defined as:

    • out of a mare owned by a resident of the United States at the time the mare was bred;
    • by a stallion approved for breeding by an American Sport Horse Registry or breed organization;
    • foaled in the United States; AND
    • registered with a recognized U.S. sport horse participating breed registry/organization (PO)


    Breeder must:
    • Be a current member of a recognized U.S. sport horse participating breed registry or organization (do we need to require current year membership??)
    • Be a resident of the U.S.


    Owner must:
    • Be an Senior Active, Junior Active or Life Member of USEF in good standing when scores are earned
    • Verify horse eligibility with PO
    • Verify that a Sport Horse Breeders’ Challenge Award declaration has been made by accessing the USEF data base or owner’s portfolio
    • If a horse does not have an existing Sport Horse Breeders’Challenge Awards declaration, the owner must make a declaration by September 30 of the award year. Once a Sport Horse Breeders’ Challenge Awards declaration has been made, it cannot be changed. Horses are eligible for awards based on the registry into which the foal is first registered. IF the horse is eligible for multiple registrations, and IF not previously recorded with USEF, the owner can make a choice of registry for the purpose of USEF Sport Horse Breeders’ Challenge Awards only. IF the horse is eligible for multiple registrations, and IF not previously recorded with USEF, and IF there is no PO for the registry into which the foal was first registered, the owner may declare for one that is participating before September 30 of the award year.


    Rider must be a Junior Active, Senior Active, or Life Member of USEF when scores are earned.

    Memberships and horse registrations begin when all application forms and fees are received by USEF. If joining USEF (including changing membership to participating status) or recording a horse at a competition, membership and registration begin the date of application. This date must be in accordance with USEF dressage division rules.

    All horses are eligible for National and Regional Awards, as long as all requirements of this Section are met.

    Recorded Scores
    • Scores must be from USEF/USDF qualifying and championship classes, or other classes specified in the general rules (need to more clearly identify which classes will count toward qualifying; any open, junior/young rider, adult amateur, only those specified as qualifying, or some other method???).
    • Score equivalents:

    • FEI Junior Preliminary Tests = Third Level Test 2
    • FEI Junior Team and Individual Tests, FEI Young Rider Preliminary and Consolation Tests = Fourth Level Test 1
    • FEI Young Rider Team Test = Fourth Level Test 3
    • FEI Pony and Individual Tests = Second Level Test 4
    • Qualifying classes may not be offered in breed-restricted classes.
    • Qualifying classes may be offered at Training through 4th Levels.
    • Eligible competitors must be given the option to enter the class as “US Sport Horse Breeders’ Challenge qualifying” for a maximum additional fee of $10, which must be paid prior to the start of the class. (Would this need to be in addition to other “qualifying” fees; e.g., HOY, or just one fee for both?)
    • Championships must be offered according to USDF Championship specifications.
    • Each USEF/USDF Qualifying and/or Championship class must be designated as such in the prize list and in the competition results. (Would this be required in order to administer the program, or is it only desirable?)
    • During each USEF/USDF Regional Championship, only one class per division and/or level may be held to determine USEF/USDF Regional Champions.
    • National Awards will be determined based on the highest scores received in the nation in all Regional Championships


    Awards (Total prize money $70,000)
    • Both National and Regional Awards will be presented.
    • Certificates and prizes are awarded to the owner and the breeder of the horse.
    • All award winners will receive personalized certificates sponsored by _______
      • Ten at each level for Training, First, Second, Third, and Fourth
    • Regional Champion and Reserve at each level in each of 9 Regions (presented at regional championship) receive:
      • a commemorative plaque sponsored by ___________
      • Champion receives a wool cooler sponsored by _______________, and $1000 in prize money to be split 80% to owner; 20% to breeder
      • Reserve Champion receives $500 in prize money to be split 80% to owner; 20% to breeder
    • National Champion and Reserve receive:
      • National Champion receives an additional $1500 in prize money; split 80% to owner and 20% to breeder (Do we also want to offer a trophy, plaque, jacket, cooler or something in additional to prize for National Champion & Reserve?)
      • National Reserve Champion receives an additional $1000 in prize money; split 80% to owner; 20% to breeder.
      • National Champion and Reserve Champion will be presented for each level at the USEF Annual Convention


    All constructive comments, criticisms, suggestions and assistance will be appreciated.
    SherryM
    WildSwan Hanoverians



  2. #2
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    Well thought out post! Thank you! But affiliating any any awards program with a specific registry even for discussion purposes will turn away many people who are interested in solving the greater problem..
    The American Horse Council may have more effect dictating the UELN. Using it may be coming closer to tracking even if to monitor methane production and meat/disease travel.
    Personally it is shocking that a large powerful organization such as USDF which offers numerous breed awards has not lobbied successfully on this serious matter.
    Last edited by not again; Feb. 5, 2009 at 08:56 AM.
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  3. #3
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    It sounds like it is dressage only so you have drastically decreased your numbers - dressage is the smallest component of the sporthorse world and only further enforces the notion among many U.S. wb breeders that the wb registries are really only interested in dressage horses - Belgian Warmblood, Selle Francias and Holsteiner horse people need not apply!

    The AHS may have 2500 "members" in their database, but I'd take a guess that the number of "active" members is much much lower. Then add the other registries of which there is significant overlap - do a mail merge, delete the duplicates and see that many will fall out. Then further decrease it to the ones only doing dressage....

    Raising the money would be hard. As I've posted many times before, with what little money that is generated by wb breeders, it is split between all those numerous registries - a good amount that goes out of the country - and all those registries spend that money on each individual one's staff, offices, inspection tours, judges, paperwork, phones, etc etc etc, instead of one organization with ONE expense for all those - geez, the wb registries almost trip over each other as they run over the same ground as each other, euro judges waving at each other from neighboring inspection sites as they go from place to place. It is a stupid redundant waste of the U.S. sporthorse breeders money.

    If that problem was solved, and all that money pooled, you might have a shot at having the money to do what you are proposing.

    You say that we aren't getting any help from the rest of the sporthorse industry - well, why should they? They are humming along just fine. It is the wb breeders that need to get their collective sh%* together.



  4. #4
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    Personally I can't imagine a foreign registry having any interest in lobbying for a USA UELN. The USDF is mentioned only as an example of a large (25,000 plus members) organization which could effect change. What about the USHJA? Where do they stand? What about the AHC? All these groups already exist.
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  5. #5
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    The only way I can see tracking getting done in the U.S. for wb breeders is if there was one main registry that everyone supported and that registry tattooed the lip like the TB industry does and the breeders were the ones who did it when they presented the horse. Then offer info to perspective buyers - sort of like a CarFax.



  6. #6
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    Tri, I think transponders are a better solution than tatoos.
    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
    Rudyard Kipling
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Quartz...26013000796803



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by not again View Post
    Personally I can't imagine a foreign registry having any interest in lobbying for a USA UELN. The USDF is mentioned only as an example of a large (25,000 plus members) organization which could effect change. What about the USHJA? Where do they stand? What about the AHC? All these groups already exist.
    The AHC has been the representative of many equine groups through the
    Equine Species Working Group.
    If you look here: http://www.equinespeciesworkinggroup...wgmembers.html
    You''ll see which groups have participated in discussions.

    Over a period of several years (2004-2006 I think) several lists of reccomendations were created and sent to USDA. Some of the concerns centered on the original requirements to report ALL equine movements. Even off the property to go on a trail ride or to the vet. Other concerns involved the expense of the equipment and the technology required. There were disagreements over the type of chip to be used.

    Lots of info here:
    http://www.equinespeciesworkinggroup.com/info.html

    Keep in mind that NAIS has nothing to do with UELN. It is simply a livestock tracking system with a stated purpose of tracking movements to mitigate disease in the livestock system.

    The last set of data specs that I saw ( and it's been a few years so may have changed ) had several choices for an ID number. One was a UELN, another was a random number made up in part from the premises number.
    Data in the system was NOT going to be accessible to the general public.

    I haven't heard much about this for a few years and with the economy I suspect this is a low priority thing espcially as it would require $ from each participant.

    If anybody has more up to date info I'd welcome some links to newer stuff.



  8. #8
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    Andy are transponders the same as microchip? I am not familar with your term.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by not again View Post
    Well thought out post! Thank you! But affiliating any any awards program with a specific registry even for discussion purposes will turn away many people who are interested in solving the greater problem..
    The American Horse Council may have more effect dictating the UELN. Using it may be coming closer to tracking even if to monitor methane production and meat/disease travel.
    Personally it is shocking that a large powerful organization such as USDF which offers numerous breed awards has not lobbied successfully on this serious matter.
    Not again -

    It would not be my intent to affilate this program with any particular registry. We need to unite, not fragment sport horse breeders in this country. I only mention that I am presenting the idea to the AHS this weekend because I hope to get feedback from a lot of breeders at one gathering. This program would be for ALL U.S. Bred sport horses, regardless of registry. And I hope to have the opportunity to present the idea to all breeders and all registries.

    With regard to USDF, from talking to them, they are feeling the economic effects of too many awards programs already. They view more performance tracking requirements as just another drain on their finances and staff time, with little or no benefit to them. That is why it is critical that breeders take the initiative on this program, both in terms of development, marketing, funding, and assistance with implementation. The only way I see that we can enlist the support of show managers and USDF (or any other equestrian organization for that matter), is if we develop a program that generates more revenue for them in order to offset the additional costs of performance tracking. Performance tracking costs money, it takes staff time for show managers to collect and report results to equestrian organizations (EOs) like USEF, USDF, etc; and then it takes more staff time for the EOs to input results into a national data base and evaluate the data to determine regional and national rankings. And we need the show managers, and the EOs to do this work for us. So, again, I can't stress enough that if we want them to collect and report results, and input and rank competitors; it's important that we demonstrate to them what's in it for them. And what gets their attention most is more show entries, more horse registrations, and more owner/rider memberships. All methods for generating revenue for their respective organizations.

    Hope this explains a little better why I believe we need to quit focusing on a 1 number registration system, and start focusing on how to motivate owners/riders, show managers, EOs, etc to help us track the performance of our horses
    SherryM
    WildSwan Hanoverians



  10. #10
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    So what you are saying is that since the registries won't get off their ass to do it -because, after all, a lot of the money goes back to europe anyways and THEIR home base members are already irritated with spending what they perceive as THEIR registry's money being spent in the U.S. That, in addition to having to belong to multiple registries, paying a stupid amount of money hauling across the country to get to far spaced out inspection sites, spending a incredible amount of money to 100 day test/30 day test/whatever test a stallion which is similar to extortion (pay us or you won't have an approved stallion and do it now, or he becomes ineligible forever) and getting little to NO marketing of the home based product while the foreign membership's product is marketed in the great german marketing machine, then we have to pony up another arm & leg, you know, so that the revenue going into the registries from U.S. breeders continues to go overseas to fund THEIR effort...all in an effort to CONTINUE to market OUR product as a foreign product further sending more buyers to europe - a hanoverian by any other name is still based in GERMANY and off the buyers go to germany.

    Do you think we are stupid?



  11. #11
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    Do you think we are stupid?
    I think that was a completely rude and obnoxious sentence. Back on Ignore you go. You can't even have civilized conversation for more than two posts.

    Sherry, I'm off to Reno. See you there.
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin



  12. #12
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    I think something like this needs to be done within the organization of <drum roll> ... North American Warmblood & Sporthorse Breeders Association. SOME organization has to be set up to do this, and why waste time/resourses setting up a partial organization, when a complete one could bring all breeders on board - Hunters, Jumpers, Eventers, Driving, and Dressage.

    As for the money, I think to get interest, it needs to be a pretty big payoff.

    The Dressage people are almost all ALREADY on board. THEY are the ones that like their designer labels, and their registration, bragging rights for bloodlines, and European papers. It is the rest of the competitiors that need to be encouraged to register/record their horses.
    Last edited by Fairview Horse Center; Feb. 5, 2009 at 11:51 PM.



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    I've had an idea that might help. If all breeders would co-register their horses with the PHR (or get a lifetime USEF number before any sale) and put a provision in their sales contracts that any horse that comes from them will show under their PHR number or their USEF number, even if it is sold to someone else, and make it clear in the sales contract that they will be a third party beneficiary to any later sales contract down the line between any buyer and seller, which must include that provision, you would at least have the option of enforcing the third party beneficiary provision. You'd have to spell out the benefits to the breeder from the use of the USEF/PHR number, but it ought to fly legally.

    Whether you choose to enforce it would be up to you, of course.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I've had an idea that might help. If all breeders would co-register their horses with the PHR (or get a lifetime USEF number before any sale) and put a provision in their sales contracts that any horse that comes from them will show under their PHR number or their USEF number, even if it is sold to someone else, and make it clear in the sales contract that they will be a third party beneficiary to any later sales contract down the line between any buyer and seller, which must include that provision, you would at least have the option of enforcing the third party beneficiary provision. You'd have to spell out the benefits to the breeder from the use of the USEF/PHR number, but it ought to fly legally.

    Whether you choose to enforce it would be up to you, of course.
    Ok but as the buyer further down the line if I don't like the arrangement I simply record the horse again with no pedigree info and a new name. I'm afraid it's too much of an 'honor system' deal to suceed.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    So what you are saying is that since the registries won't get off their ass to do it -because, after all, a lot of the money goes back to europe anyways and THEIR home base members are already irritated with spending what they perceive as THEIR registry's money being spent in the U.S. That, in addition to having to belong to multiple registries, paying a stupid amount of money hauling across the country to get to far spaced out inspection sites, spending a incredible amount of money to 100 day test/30 day test/whatever test a stallion which is similar to extortion (pay us or you won't have an approved stallion and do it now, or he becomes ineligible forever) and getting little to NO marketing of the home based product while the foreign membership's product is marketed in the great german marketing machine, then we have to pony up another arm & leg, you know, so that the revenue going into the registries from U.S. breeders continues to go overseas to fund THEIR effort...all in an effort to CONTINUE to market OUR product as a foreign product further sending more buyers to europe - a hanoverian by any other name is still based in GERMANY and off the buyers go to germany.

    Do you think we are stupid?
    Apparently I am the one that is stupid, because the above made absolutely no sense to me. How are your comments relevant to the proposed awards program I am suggesting? The awards are for U.S. Bred sport horses. The awards are to benefit US breeders regardless of what registry they belong to. And why shouldn't we be expected to pay for a program that is primarily for our benefit?
    SherryM
    WildSwan Hanoverians



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    I think something like this needs to be done within the organization of <drum roll> ... North American Warmblood & Sporthorse Breeders Association. SOME organization has to be set up to do this, and why waste time/resourses setting up a partial organization, when a complete one could bring all breeders on board - Hunters, Jumpers, Eventers, Driving, and Dressage.
    Darlyn - Could you please explain why you feel we need another organization to do this. To me it seems like we have too many organizations already.

    What I'm trying to determine at this point is whether the program has merit, AND how many breeders would be willing to work on establishment of such a program. Given enough interest, we can work together to accomplish this regardless of whether we form an official organization or not. I'm not saying a breeders organization might not be formed if breeders joined together to establish this program, I just think the program CAN be accomplished without FIRST forming such a organization. It just takes the will to do it!

    As for the money, I think to get interest, it needs to be a pretty big payoff.
    NO ARGUMENT HERE!

    The Dressage people are almost all ALREADY on board. THEY are the ones that like their designer labels, and their registration, bragging rights for bloodlines, and European papers. It is the rest of the competitiors that need to be encouraged to register/record their horses.
    Not true from my perspective. Dressage people may like their designer labels, and their registration papers, and bragging rights, and they may, in fact, register and record a larger percentage of their horses. However, this does not mean that dressage people are already on board with regard to breed related performance tracking. Dressage horse owners/riders/trainers do not care any more about breed related performance tracking than your average hunter, jumper or eventing person. Currently, only breeders care about breed related performance tracking. Maybe the rest of the sport horse community should care, but the fact remains, at the present time, they don't.

    But you do bring up a good point. The reason I have proposed that we BEGIN the program with Training - 4th Level Dressage IS because dressage people probably DO already register and record a larger percentage of their horses, and because they already have some experience with breed related awards programs, and the breed declaration requirement. This allows us to build upon what has already gone before. Later, if we can demonstrate the benefits of the program in dressage, we may have a much better chance of implementing a similar program in the other disciplines (especially H/J where the opposition to any type of horse tracking system is much greater).
    SherryM
    WildSwan Hanoverians



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I've had an idea that might help. If all breeders would co-register their horses with the PHR (or get a lifetime USEF number before any sale) and put a provision in their sales contracts that any horse that comes from them will show under their PHR number or their USEF number, even if it is sold to someone else, and make it clear in the sales contract that they will be a third party beneficiary to any later sales contract down the line between any buyer and seller, which must include that provision, you would at least have the option of enforcing the third party beneficiary provision. You'd have to spell out the benefits to the breeder from the use of the USEF/PHR number, but it ought to fly legally.

    Whether you choose to enforce it would be up to you, of course.
    While I think your idea might work, I think it might be too cumbersome. I like the carrot approach better, where we provide the owners/riders/trainers with a reason to WANT to register/life record AND file the breed declaration. Perhaps I'm wrong, but in the long run I think the carrot approach has a better chance of success.
    SherryM
    WildSwan Hanoverians



  18. #18
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    Sherry,

    I think you have an excellent and well-thought out suggestion there. Let me know how the AHS receives it and then maybe I could help present it to the KWPN-NA....

    Thanks for putting so much work into something that should be near and dear to every breeder's heart.

    Best,
    Siegi
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  19. #19
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    I think the PHR is a carrot, but that aside, everyone who breeds horses should join the USEF and then as a group could lobby in great numbers with the very organization entrusted with keeping the records, names and points. As long as the entities interested in muddy history on horses stays in the majority, the minority interested in accuracy will lose.
    More groups throwing money at the problem is, in my opinion, is a lateral move and inherently weak.
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by not again View Post
    I think the PHR is a carrot, but that aside, everyone who breeds horses should join the USEF and then as a group could lobby in great numbers with the very organization entrusted with keeping the records, names and points. As long as the entities interested in muddy history on horses stays in the majority, the minority interested in accuracy will lose.
    More groups throwing money at the problem is, in my opinion, is a lateral move and inherently weak.
    The number of trainers who are USEF members will for sure, be much, much larger than the number of WB breeders even if you got every last breeder to join up. WB Breeders in the majority? Nope.

    Many of the trainers are on USEF/USHJA/USEA/USDF/LOCAL committees or hold appointed positions in those organizations.

    Owners/riders will agree with their trainers so there's another huge bunch that won't be on your side.

    There are some breeders that do not support WB registries. Several of them are very successful in IJF and IHF. They are tied closely to trainers. They may feel that things are great the way they are.

    The WB registries can't agree on well, anything, so how do you suppose they will come togther to fight those evil trainers?

    The IHF and IJF already have young horse programs established and doing well so I'm not aure another program would get much interest in H/J world. Especially if it means the breeder/owner has to lay out more $.

    You need something else other than a breeder vs the evil trainer thing.
    Still think the number of horses that get intentional new ID's is much less than is thought by this forum. And when they do get new ID's it's likely to be because the new owner can't stand the critter's name.( reference all the threads asking 'help me name my new horse')



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