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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post
    No, it oogs me out because I think people go WAY overboard with deworming. We've never done a power pak and our horses have always looked and done just fine. I just can't see any reason to give a horse 10 doses of wormer over 5 days. Sorry, I can't. If you want to, go for it, but I can't imagine ever doing it.
    But this isn't about "way overboard" with deworming. This is about getting parasites that nothing but this, and moxidectin, get. If mox is part of your routine, you're covered - no need to do the 5 day double dose.

    If you have immaculate parasite control procedures in place, and have for years and years, and can guarantee that new horses coming in have as well, then likely no need.

    But the encysted stages can live for YEARS in the horse. If something triggers there emergence, then if the load is big enough, it CAN cause a very serious problem. That is a VERY valid reason to use one of those 2 rotations - mox of 5-day fen.

    Otherwise, if a horse has a large enough encysted population, which doesn't emerge all at once (more or less), then you are looking at years of cyclic, lighter emergence and nutrient-stealing.

    It's your choice Really, it IS your choice But there are extremely valid reasons to do ot
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  2. #22
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    Sep. 8, 2007
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    A Powerpac is certainly not going overboard when it is the only way to kill all stages of a terrible encysted strongyle. I have got to find the article that was in Equus about two years ago about a girl who's horse died from them. Her horse was a perfect weight, in work, healthy, young animal who died almost immediatly when thousands of these strongyles hatched and caused him to internally bleed to death. You may think that avoiding such a fate in your horses is overboard, but not I.



  3. #23
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    Oct. 11, 2000
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    NC
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    It still takes quite a bit. The safety index for moxidectin is 5, IIRC. You'd really have to TRY to overdose your average horse.
    Actually, the lethal dose is 3 unless it has changed to 5, which is why it's not recommended for the young or the small.

    Because moxidectin is very good at what it does, I will not use it on a horse unless it has been powerpaked recently and will not use it on anything I suspect might have a heavy worm load.



  4. #24
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    Mar. 4, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by webmistress32 View Post
    I wonder about the recent rise in worms that are resistant to certain chemicals and the human need to purify and cleanse through chemicals.

    coincidence?
    Actually this is probably due to not rotating classes of wormers and/or underdosing when worming. What are you suggesting? Not using chemical wormer?

    Caitlin
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



  5. #25
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    Dec. 19, 2007
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    I Power Pack my horse early Spring. The vets around here recommend it as part of the worming rotation even though we use Quest in Nov/Dec.



  6. #26
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponyjumper4 View Post
    Actually, the lethal dose is 3 unless it has changed to 5, which is why it's not recommended for the young or the small.

    Because moxidectin is very good at what it does, I will not use it on a horse unless it has been powerpaked recently and will not use it on anything I suspect might have a heavy worm load.
    No, the lethal dose is quite a bit higher.

    Here's an article citing 5 equines that over dosed from 2 to 10 times the normal dose. Four foals under 4 months and one adult horse. All survived. Quest is not labeled for use in foals under four months.

    Here is a presentation stating 5 times standard dose for several days did not kill any horses and only foals got sick.

    There is no LD50 for moxidectin for horses but the MSDS states the LD50 for rats is 1166 mg/kg.



  7. #27
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    Jan. 23, 2007
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    Hampshire, IL
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    Actually this is probably due to not rotating classes of wormers and/or underdosing when worming.
    interesting. have a link to support your theory?

    What are you suggesting? Not using chemical wormer?
    nope.



  8. #28
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    Jul. 27, 2005
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    Lack of rotation can lead to drug resistant parasites! Lots to learn on that webinar I keep linking to!

    http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=18

    Q: I have a Friend where i board, who's vet told her it was ok to use Ivermectin all year long as long as once a year she double doses (gives two doses at one time instead of one). She said this was the same as rotating which i don't believe. Doesn't this create resistant worms?

    A: There are increasing numbers of reports of drug resistant parasites in all parts of the country as well as from around the world. There are numerous reports of round worms becoming resistant to ivermectin and moxidectin. Many of these reports come from farms that have used nothing but ivermectin every 60 days for many years. More recently there are reports of small strongyles becoming resistant to ivermectin. No one dewormer should be used exclusively for a prolonged period of time.

    And one more

    Q: We are in our last month of winter right now. We almost lost a 2 y.o pony to Larval cyathosominosis (sp) recently. An unknown event triggered the encysted larvae to all burrow their way out at once, it was touch & go for the little guy. This colt grazes in an 8 acre paddock with 3 other 2 y.o colts and a 20 y.o stallion. I have 20 other horses on the property and none of them have ever suffered from this life threatening issue. Would he have a genetic predisposition to allowing a worm burden to accumulate? I have owned him for 12 months, he is drenched regularly, they are all drenched at the same time with the dose appropriate to their weight. In your experience is the problem likely to recur? It is relatively rare in New Zealand.

    A: You are very perceptive when you suggest that the pony may have had a genetic predisposition. We know that genetics plays a role in how resistant or susceptible some horses are to parasites. I would plan on deworming this individual on an annual basis with a dewormer effective against encysted small strongyles..(i.e. larvicidal fenbendazole or moxidectin).
    No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill



  9. #29
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    Jan. 23, 2007
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    more interested in this assertion:

    underdosing when worming.
    as a cause of chemical resistance.



  10. #30
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    http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=18

    On the video at around 14:17 min. it list reasons for resistance.

    1) the continued use of only one class of anthelmintic

    2)high frequency of deworming

    3) the under dosing of the anthelmintic - by underestimation of the animals weight and by losing product during the administration.
    No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill



  11. #31
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    Jul. 10, 2002
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    Vienna, VA USA
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    Default Do it now.

    My older horse was staring to colic on Saturday when it was caught and treated. The Vet recommended doing the PowerPac for 5 days to get the larval stage strongels. I have only had the horse for 2 years and he was not wormed on a regular basis before I bought him so the 2 tubes every other time was not enough to get the larvae. He is a big long horse so it is hard to gage his weight using a weight tape so we were told to give him 3 tubes of Safeguard for 5 days. We are hoping for good results from this.

    Needless to say we will be doing this again next year and our other horse will too.



  12. #32
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by webmistress32 View Post
    more interested in this assertion:

    Quote: :underdosing when deworming"Quote

    as a cause of chemical resistance.
    You should be , it is an accurate staement. I have known people who I have considered knowlegable horse owners, underdose with multiple horses.

    BTW I am a moxidectin user. I am also old enough to remember when ivermectin first came on the market, how it reduced the number of colics an equine practitioner saw in a year.
    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by x-rab View Post
    My older horse was staring to colic on Saturday when it was caught and treated. The Vet recommended doing the PowerPac for 5 days to get the larval stage strongels. I have only had the horse for 2 years and he was not wormed on a regular basis before I bought him so the 2 tubes every other time was not enough to get the larvae. He is a big long horse so it is hard to gage his weight using a weight tape so we were told to give him 3 tubes of Safeguard for 5 days. We are hoping for good results from this.

    Needless to say we will be doing this again next year and our other horse will too.
    Do a web search for "calculating horse weight" and you'll find a few formulas to help you get more accurate information than the tape. Don't use anything that doesn't minimally use the girth measurement AND the length measurement

    Quote Originally Posted by webmistress32 View Post
    more interested in this assertion:

    as a cause of chemical resistance.
    It's super easy, actually, to search the web for scientific articles on the underdosing issue and resistance The same articles often also refer to the use of the wrong chemicals at the wrong times, particularly in conjuction with the "deworm every 8 weeks" mentality. Only ivermectin has an effectiveness of 8 weeks in the body. Moxidectin is 12, praziquantel is around 26, fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate are in the 5-6 week range.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  14. #34
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Minnesota
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Do a web search for "calculating horse weight" and you'll find a few formulas to help you get more accurate information than the tape. Don't use anything that doesn't minimally use the girth measurement AND the length measurement
    http://ojas.ucok.edu/02/papers/hapgood02.htm




    It's super easy, actually, to search the web for scientific articles on the underdosing issue and resistance The same articles often also refer to the use of the wrong chemicals at the wrong times, particularly in conjuction with the "deworm every 8 weeks" mentality. Only ivermectin has an effectiveness of 8 weeks in the body. Moxidectin is 12, praziquantel is around 26, fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate are in the 5-6 week range.
    26 for praziquantel?! WOW.



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    That is actually one I have never been able to find in my searches! I SWEAR it's bookmarked now! I wanted to compare it to the one that just does girth and length

    26 for praziquantel?! WOW.
    Ya! That's why you really only need to dose for tapes, using prazi, only about twice a year
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  16. #36
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    Aug. 25, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simkie View Post
    Just keep in mind that it is specfic for tapes---only!
    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.



  17. #37
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    Mar. 4, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by webmistress32 View Post
    interesting. have a link to support your theory?
    I don't have a specific link, but others seem to have covered that well.

    FWIW, I Power Pac'd my mare for the first time last year. I've owned her since she was 4 (she is now 14) and she has always been on a consistent deworming schedule, but never had a Power Pac or Quest. I did hers last October and she did just fine with it. No problems at all. Except that she started avoiding me in her stall by the third or fourth day .

    Caitlin
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



  18. #38
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by merrygoround View Post
    Just keep in mind that it is specfic for tapes---only!
    Good point - so no using Equimax only, and just twice a year!
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  19. #39
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    Apr. 24, 2003
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    Tehachapi, Ca
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    Default Issues with the powerpac

    Several years ago, I was on day three of the process with my two horses when my older gelding started showing colic symtoms. This horse had two colic surgeries as a youngster (twists both times) but had been in great health ever since then -thankfully.

    We had the vet out, and with some meds, we were able to avert disaster. This was very frightening for all of us and not a whole lot of fun for Andy. I've avoided the powerpac process ever since. It just seemed to me that three days in a row of that much wormer (out of a potential 5 days) was just too hard on his systom.

    He turns twenty in a couple of months and is in great shape now!



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda View Post
    Several years ago, I was on day three of the process with my two horses when my older gelding started showing colic symtoms. This horse had two colic surgeries as a youngster (twists both times) but had been in great health ever since then -thankfully.

    We had the vet out, and with some meds, we were able to avert disaster. This was very frightening for all of us and not a whole lot of fun for Andy. I've avoided the powerpac process ever since. It just seemed to me that three days in a row of that much wormer (out of a potential 5 days) was just too hard on his systom.

    He turns twenty in a couple of months and is in great shape now!
    If you read what I wrote on this thread, and read any of the protocol for the Power Pack, it says that this particular protocol (5 days of double dose fenbendazole) can cause symptoms similar to those of the encysted larve emerging on their own. It does not cause the larve to emerge - it's killing them - but the *symptoms* can look just like it. What is one of those symptoms? Colic type This issue can peak up to about day 14.

    So, for horses like that, or if that bothers you even on a horse who's never exhibited that issue, then your ONLY other option is to use moxidectin.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



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