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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep. 3, 2006
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    348

    Default Ok to not use Panacur Powerpacs in your rotation?

    We recently moved our horses home and have since taken over worming our guys every 8 weeks as per our vet's instructions. Vet has the 5 day Panacur PowerPac listed to use in April. Our guys are backyard horses, 2 big guys, 2 minis, and are not exposed to other horses on or off the property. Pastures are picked on a regular basis.

    Is is always a good idea to use the 5 day Panacur PowerPac once per year or would I be ok using the 1 dose Panacur instead?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 19, 2008
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    1,779

    Default

    We do the once a year powerpacs and I do like having that "flush" for them. I don't think it'll hurt to do the 5 day, although I know it's expensive.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2007
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    Illinois, USA
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    I've never used the Powerpac. Somehow my mare has survived.
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  4. #4
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    Jun. 6, 2000
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    Amherst, MA
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    Default

    The PowerPack targets encysted strongyles. These can live in a horse's gut for several years, and no other wormer (aside from moxidectin--Quest) will kill them. At some point, they will begin to break out of their cysts; they often do this all at once in response to some environmental trigger. If there's a substantial number of them, they can cause a horse to colic, bleed internally, etc.

    The Powerpack is a pretty minimal investment; one alternative is Quest. It doesn't target the full spectrum of encysted strongyles but it does a pretty good job. And it's only one dose.
    "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 3, 2006
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    348

    Default

    I do currently use Quest in our rotation - only for the big guys though, not for the minis...



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr. 7, 2007
    Location
    Tennessee
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sublimequine View Post
    I've never used the Powerpac. Somehow my mare has survived.
    None of my 6 have ever been Powerpacked. I've been considering it but like you, I have a closed herd that don't go anywhere. I've had them all since they were foals. I've never Powerpacked any horse I've ever owned. Never heard about it until I came here.

    I may do it but I've talked to two vets that deal with my horses and they say for mine they certainly don't 'look' like they need it (fat, shiny, healthy, great hooves, no skin problems, etc...knock on wood!). I still might do it this Spring though. Just for good measure. I'm interested to hear what others say in this thread though.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
    Location
    Minnesota
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    Default

    I generally do a powerpac about once a year, and if I forget, I notice my horse getting unthrify about 18 months post power pac--and this is WITH using Quest in rotation.

    I would not skip a power pac once a year.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2007
    Location
    Yonder
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    423

    Default

    I have 3 at home and just finished doing 5 day "purge" on them. Although I use Strongid C2x daily and Zimectrin Gold twice a year I always purge them to ensure no worms got "immune" and survived. I buy the cattle doses (big tubes) of Safeguard. I figure out there weight total and multiply times five to figure how many tubes I need. I think I got four or five tubes this year. It is the same as the Panacur Power Pak (results are the same) but the PPP is a more convenient method (failsafe) therefore the cost is greater. If this is new to you (BO administered before) I would probably go with the PPP just to be safe. However, I always add a little more to each of there doses just in case.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2007
    Location
    Illinois, USA
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    Default

    I do hear that Powerpacs are safer than Quest. Anyone know why?
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 23, 2006
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    OKC
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    Default

    It is much easier to "OD" a horse on moxidectin then fenbendazole.
    Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Minnesota
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bugsynskeeter View Post
    It is much easier to "OD" a horse on moxidectin then fenbendazole.
    It still takes quite a bit. The safety index for moxidectin is 5, IIRC. You'd really have to TRY to overdose your average horse.

    Sublime, I've heard a couple things with regard to Quest vs. Power Pac. I've heard that moxidectin paralyzes the worms and they're flushed out of the body with no inflammatory response, whereas a Power Pac kills the worms and that triggers inflammation in the gut. I've also read that a Power Pac is *easier* on gut because it kills the worms over several days vs all at once.

    In MY experience, I've never had a negative reaction to a power pac--and I've dosed horses with VERY questionable worming history. I've also never had a negative reaction to Qwest, but I've never dosed a horse with questionable history with it until they have a history with me.

    And I've absolutely, certainly seen my horses start to look poor about 18 months following a power pac if I forget to dose them at a year, even with using Quest. The horses have, without fail, improved following a power pac.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sublimequine View Post
    I do hear that Powerpacs are safer than Quest. Anyone know why?
    Depends what you mean by "safer"

    Mox has a lower safety margin, and should *not* be used on young, sick, old, OR underweight horses (as it needs enough body fat to properly metabolize and not be an "overdose" at even a normal dose).

    But, all else equal, there are 2 differences between the 5 day double dose fenbendazole, and a 1 time moxidectin.

    1. 5 day double dose - gets the third stage encysted larva that mox *does not* get
    2. Moxidectin does not cause the mucus inflammation that occurs around Day 14 (from the first dose) when using the fenbendazole protocol. That inflammation mimics the emergence of the encysted strongyles (not CAUSING it, the symptoms mimic it) and can make some horses colicky.

    I personally have not had #2 happen, so will continue to use a power pack unless I end up with a horse who shows that is not for him. I have no wish to use moxidectin for anything, so won't unless forced to.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  13. #13
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    Sep. 25, 2005
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    The Land of the Frozen
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sublimequine View Post
    I've never used the Powerpac. Somehow my mare has survived.
    Ditto. Never heard of it until I came to COTH. The idea of giving double doses of wormer every day for 5 days just oogs me out. No thanks.



  14. #14
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post
    Ditto. Never heard of it until I came to COTH. The idea of giving double doses of wormer every day for 5 days just oogs me out. No thanks.
    Does it oog you out because you've never heard of it?

    It's a well-researched and documented protocol.

    Having never heard of it goes to show you that not all vets are up to par on some good deworming protocols. This has been around for a long time, and it highly recommended for many areas of the country.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  15. #15
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    Jan. 28, 2003
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    Hollywood, but not the one where they have the Oscars!
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    Default

    I love the way my horses look after a powerpac.
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul. 27, 2005
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    Mississippi
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    Default

    The horse.com has two webinars about worming available for viewing. I watched one and they gave two recommended worming schedules. One was 6 way and the other a 4 way. Both included the Lavicidal dose of Fenbendazole, AKA Panacur power Pac!



    http://www.thehorse.com/Videos.aspx?tab=webinar

    I saw this one...

    Strategic Deworming - Heidi A. Brady, PhD, is an associate professor at Texas Tech University


    yet to see...

    Deworming Your Horse - Craig Reinemeyer, DVM, PhD (East Tennessee Clinical Research) Wendy Vaala, DVM, Dipl. ACVIM, is an Intervet/Schering-Plough Animal Health equine technical services specialist and a former private practitioner.
    No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan. 23, 2007
    Location
    Hampshire, IL
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    778

    Default

    I wonder about the recent rise in worms that are resistant to certain chemicals and the human need to purify and cleanse through chemicals.

    coincidence?



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun. 6, 2000
    Location
    Amherst, MA
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    Default

    Of course it's not a coincidence. But it's also not a coincidence that fewer horses die from parasites.

    Costs and benefits. Every single medical intervention (including herbals and non-intervention) includes costs and benefits.

    It's silly not to do a Powerpack because "my horse has never needed one" or because "it oogs me out."

    Educate yourself and make an informed decision. You may decide not to do a powerpack as a result of that education, but at least you'll know what the risks are (and what the risks are of doing the powerpack as well.)

    Personally, I've used Powerpacks and moxidectin (Quest) and never had any problems. Does that mean that no one will ever have any problems? No.

    Costs and benefits. Educate yourself.

    JMHO.
    "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 2007
    Location
    Mirabel, QC
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    Default

    I had never heard of Powerpacs until I came to COTH too but reading about it makes sense.

    I never had any use for it but I do have a broodmare right now who scores clean fecal tests but still has this little NQR thing about her. We are most likely going to try a PP, I am at bit at my wits end!
    www.EquusMagnificus.ca
    Breeding & Sales - Currently: Eventing & Derby prospects
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  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 27, 2005
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    Mississippi
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    From thehorse.com webinar http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=18

    Q: Can you overdo deworming?

    A: Yes, the concept that "more is better" is not a sound decision when it comes to deworming. As a matter of fact, many of the studies documenting resistance on a farm have been where there has been a history of very frequent deworming, especially with the same class of dewormer. Deworming programs, including decisions on frequency of use, types and schedules of dewormers, should be based on a complex number of factors such a geographic location, weather, density of horses, age of horses, exposure of those horses to outside untreated horses (for example performance horses on the road), management practices (pasture rotation, etc) and fecal egg counts of animals. It is also important to know if there is a problem of resistance on the farm, which can be determined with pre and post fecal egg count testing (Fecal Egg Count Reduction Tests (FECRT). Based on our studies at Texas Tech, we recommend a 4-way rotation for many farms and ranches. Some conditions may warrant a six way rotation only if needed. The quarterly rotation includes dewormers targeting adult parasites, larval parasites, tapeworms and bots. We believe it is important to consider the range of parasites including ascarids, and not be based only on small strongyle control. Several very recent studies have documented resistance of equine ascarids to the ivermectin class of parasites. This is very alarming due to the serious consequences ascarids can pose to foals. In high numbers, blockage of the gut can occur with fatal results. Because there is no new class of dewormer on the horizon, we believe it is very important to preserve all of the current classes of dewormers, which have different applications in parasite control in the horse. Other researchers suggest even a less frequent schedule of anthelmintic administration based on a targeted approach, where only the heavy egg shedders are given the dewormers. In the targeted approach, the high shedding horses as identified by fecal egg count (FEC) testing are selectively dewormed where as the low shedding horses are not. Further scientific trials and farm testing need to be performed in the immediate future to investigate all approaches to parasite control. The bottom line is that many types of deworming regimens are being proposed. There needs to be further research studies on the effectiveness of these programs throughout the US as well as around the globe.In addition, remember that each farm needs to be considered individually and decisions need to be made based on testing and management information.
    Q: Some say that rotational de-worming specialist is an outdated practice, what is the current recommendation based on recent study?

    A: I do not believe that rotation is an outdated practice. We showed at Texas Tech that rotation was very efficacious after a resistance problem was verified in a herd of production horses. After resistance to fenbendazole was documented (after experimental use of only FBZ for 18 months without rotation) by extremely poor FECRT and a larval assay, we found that fenbendazole was not effective in this herd, particularly in the young horses where the incidence of small stronglyes (cyathostomes) was very high. We implemented a quarterly rotation of pyrantel pamoate (Strongid, Pfizer) (June) , Ivermectin+Praziquantel (Equimax, Pfizer) (September), fenbendazole larvicidal dose 50 mg/kg BW (Power-Pac, Intervet) (December), and Moxidectin (Quest, Fort Dodge) (March) and had all efficicacies above 95.9%. We are now in the 4th year of monitoring this herd and the control of all types of parasites is excellent. I believe any parasite control program should include frequent monitoring of the herd via FEC and FECR. It is not always evident to the eye of the beholder if there is a parasite problem there.
    Q: What are the best drugs/worming regimes to deal with encysted worms.

    A: There are two products available that have a label claim to kill encysted small strongyles: Moxidectin and the larvicidal dose of fenbendazole: double dose once-a-day for 5 days (e.g., Panacur Power Pac or Safe Guard Power Dose). Encysted cyathostome larvae hibernate in the mucosa of the horse's large intestines for a variable period of time. Cyathostomes are ingested by the horse from the pasture as infective free-living third stage larvae (L3). These L3 larvae invade and penetrate the mucosa of the horse's large intestines (i.e., the large colon and cecum) where they become "encysted" within a fibrous capsule. Within the cyst the larvae pass through several developmental stages: Early third-stage larvae (EL3) followed by Late third stage larvae (LL3) which then molt to early fourth stage larvae (EL4) and then complete their development to become late fourth stage larvae (LL4). The LL4 emerges from the cyst and re-enters the lumen of intestines and develops into an adult cyathostome capable of laying eggs that then pass back onto the pasture in the manure. Approximately 75% of the encysted Cyathostomes are believed to be present as EL3s. Only larvicidal fenbendazole is labeled to killed ALL 3 stages (EL3, LL3, and LL4) of the hibernating or encysted small strongyles. Moxidectin kills the later stages of encysted cyathosotmes. Ivermectin is effective against the larval forms only after they leave the cyst. Drugs such as pyrantel pamoate (Strongid) are effective against the adult Cyathostomes but not the encysted forms. You are correct when you say that encysted cyathostomes are difficult to diagnose. While the larvae are encysted they are NOT producing eggs. So a fecal egg count may not detect how many hibernating Cyathostomes are present within an individual horse. Most deworming regimens recommend administering a drug effective against encysted Cyathostomes while most of the larvae are hibernating. This is because most of the damage occurs when large numbers of larvae excyst and penetrate back through the intestinal wall. Affected horses may develop colic, diarrhea, weight loss and edema. It is believed that large numbers of Cyathostomes are hibernating in the horse's intestines when conditions are unfavorable for their survival on pasture. In the South this would correspond to hot, dry summers and in the North during the winters. A rule-of-thumb that helps remember when to use a larvicidal treatment is when the grass turns brown (either from high hot temperatures or drought conditions or after freezing temperatures). Climate and weather conditions dictate how and when to deworm rather than simply where you live in the country!
    Last edited by MSP; Feb. 2, 2009 at 12:52 PM.
    No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill



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