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  1. #1
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    Default BooHoo poor Dutrow

    Let's just say when you have history it tends to follow you.
    http://www.drf.com/news/article/101362.html



  2. #2
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    Beyer is an idiot. He also mentioned Marty Wolfsen, one of the best trainers in the game, who does nothing more than train his horses and take care of them better than anyone. If he's going to start dragging someone like Wolfsen into his mud, he'd better bring some better ammo than his bogus numbers, which he changes all the time to suit him. Did it ever occur to him that maybe his figures were wrong, since there were so many numbers that were high?



  3. #3
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    Keep in mind it was Andy Beyer (see this flashback to Oct 2005) who banged the gong (righfully at the time) with regards to juiced up horses who went from being mediocre to sensational overnight a-la A One Rocket.

    If you read that column and compare it to Andy's remarks over the Dutrow horse - This Ones for Phil - it sounds similar. Keep in mind I'm saying Andy's remarks are similar and I'm not suggesting Dutrow was doing anything like the since revoked trainer Martin who trained 'Rocket' for IEAH.

    Bettors at tracks across the country can cite horses whose performances defy handicapping logic. One such animal, A One Rocket, belongs in the Hall of Fame of training miracles. His overnight transformation was so outlandish that it set in motion a series of events altering the sport in New York. The legacy of A One Rocket will be felt Saturday at Belmont Park, when all of the entrants in the Breeders' Cup will be subjected to unprecedented scrutiny.



  4. #4
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    Cool second it

    Beyer is an idiot.....A very succesful high profile trainer said this to me once and it always stuck in my head..."when your winning everyone thinks you cheating........when your not winning everyone thinks your a moron....."
    Forward is good



  5. #5
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    I usually don't talk bad about people in the industry unless they have done something appalling (i.e. cobra venom...cough...cough), but the media members are fair game to me because they are not really what I call "in the industry".

    Beyer doesn't and shouldn't have an opinion that really matters because he is not a trainer, owner, steward, vet, breeder, or connected to any of these horses or these trainers' programs in any fashion whatsoever. Also, it seems to be a biased opinion and he uses the media to his advantage. Dutrow very well may have cheated in this instance, but Beyer certainly doesn't have the facts to prove it. Also, I would have questioned another horse's feat that raced recently more than this one....(uh-hmmm...Nownownow, but who am I to judge without facts really).

    His Beyer speed figures are pretty useless at times because of the inconsistencies and bias. Oh well, his Beyer speed figures are good for one thing. They are good for making the track money from degenerate gamblers who believe in BSFs when they don't really work



  6. #6
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    Default 3rd it

    Quote Originally Posted by summerly View Post
    Beyer is an idiot.....A very succesful high profile trainer said this to me once and it always stuck in my head..."when your winning everyone thinks you cheating........when your not winning everyone thinks your a moron....."
    Never heard it said any better then that...



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filly85' View Post
    ...but the media members are fair game to me because they are not really what I call "in the industry".

    Beyer doesn't and shouldn't have an opinion that really matters because he is not a trainer, owner, steward, vet, breeder, or connected to any of these horses or these trainers' programs in any fashion whatsoever.
    Fascinating.

    I'm not a fan of Dutrow, and indifferent towards Beyer, but I'd just love to see the expression on Steve Haskin's face upon being informed that he is not "in the industry".



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filly85' View Post
    I usually don't talk bad about people in the industry unless they have done something appalling (i.e. cobra venom...cough...cough), Dutrow very well may have cheated in this instance, but Beyer certainly doesn't have the facts to prove it. Also, I would have questioned another horse's feat that raced recently more than this one....(uh-hmmm...Nownownow, but who am I to judge without facts really).
    birds of a feather............

    But how will you ever prove anything definitively in an industry that gives it's highest accolade to a trainer who was given the longest suspension for rules violation EVER?
    "Everyone will start to cheer, when you put on your sailin shoes"-Lowell George



  9. #9
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    Default 8th, 9th, whatever-it

    I worked with Beyer for a number of years and while I wouldn't call him an idiot he is definitely one who made the most of his position to take shots at those he had grudges against. Also...keep in mind that he was and is a bigtime bettor who is not above unfair criticism of a trainer who beat him out of a winning pick six ticket.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toadie's mom View Post
    birds of a feather............

    But how will you ever prove anything definitively in an industry that gives it's highest accolade to a trainer who was given the longest suspension for rules violation EVER?
    Here is a letter that I sent to the President of the NTRA many times before, and never received a response back...(of course, I took a shot at him so that may have been why...I couldn't help it). It is very long, and it was the first one that I sent. It is all I can do right now, so I do the best that I can. I have talked with several vets about things such as the drugs, and have done extensive research on the effects of said drugs in this paragraph. These are just my opinion for what they are worth. They may not be the right opinions, but many share the same thoughts as I do.

    First, I would like to thank the NTRA for letting everyone share their thoughts about the horrific accidents in horse racing and their ideas about the changes that need to occur in this wonderful sport. I also apologize if I am being repetitious as I have not read the other posts. In addition, I regret to say that the changes that need to take place in horse racing would take years to accomplish and cannot be stated in a mere few paragraphs. Horse racing, at its finest, is a quintessential depiction of beauty; horses’ blood, muscle, and heart sewn into a picture of perfection. The glory, the prestige, the colors, the high, and the passion for the horses are what attract people like me to the sport of kings. I love horse racing for the moments of greatness: the exhilaration of Rags to Riches battling the superhorse Curlin in the Belmont Stakes, Lost in the Fog with his beautiful way of going and sheer speed, and the gallant, charismatic Barbaro. Because I love horses and horse racing so much, I am compelled to talk about Eight Belles death and horse racing in the US as they coincide with one another. In my opinion, Eight Belles death was caused by a myriad of factors including her fragile breeding, any drugs in her system (Lasix included), her fitness (going from 1 1/16 to 1 ΒΌ miles), her rough way of going, and having an 180 lb rider. Horse racing in the United States could be one of the greatest sports in the world. Unfortunately, the CEOs in the horse racing industry that generally do not know anything about the horses themselves do not seem to want to work together or with horsemen even when cooperation with one another is conducive to higher profits and the attraction of more people/bettors. Horse racing in the United States needs to follow the other horse disciplines such as show jumping and dressage, in which a national (USAE or USDF respectively) organization has ultimate authority, and are in charge of all of the rules and punishments so that there is consistency. Until this can happen, the changes that need to be made will not occur. I cannot emphasize enough that the lack of cooperation between the racetracks, CEOs, and horsemen is counter-productive to what needs to be and can be accomplished in the industry. Next, the weakening of the breed itself must be addressed. The longevity of the breed is contingent upon the elimination of all drugs from race horses. Lasix, steroids, and phenylbutazone should absolutely not be tolerated. Lasix is a performance-enhancing diuretic drug that is given to horses to inhibit EIPH, or bleeding, during a race. However, because it is a diuretic, it causes horses to take significantly longer to recover from their races, which makes them more susceptible to injuries or sickness. On the other hand, “bute” is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug that considerably increases the risk of breakdowns because the sensation of pain is drastically reduced or completely eliminated. These drugs are not allowed in Europe or Australia, yet their group I horses seem to race more frequently than the US horses without as many fatal breakdowns. In addition, if horses racing in the US were completely free of these performance enhancing drugs, the breeders in the industry would eventually select stallions which performed well without the use of drugs. Therefore, with time, the longevity of horses’ racing careers and soundness of the breed would increase making horse racing in this country a much more likeable and appealing sport to everyone. In addition, harsh penalties should be enforced for violating drug rules to protect the integrity and ethics of the sport. For example, if a trainer has been convicted of many drug violations, even if in different countries, either he/she should be stripped of their trainer’s license indefinitely or unable to obtain one here in the US. Again, a national organization that has ultimate authority in horse racing needs to be formed before this can occur. I do not think the answers to reducing breakdowns necessarily lie in synthetic surfaces for all tracks, increasing the racing age of horses, eliminating the use of the whip (it could actually be detrimental to the safety of horses and riders to do so) , or not allowing the fillies to race against the colts. Although the conditions of some tracks such as those within the California circuit dictated a change in the surface, other dirt surfaces appear to be just as safe as some of the synthetic surfaces. Thoroughbreds have been bred for decades to mature faster than most other breeds of horses. I think that it should be left to the discretion of the trainer to decide when a horse is mature or sound enough to run in a race whether it is as a two-year-old or a three-year-old. I will end with these last few thoughts even though I wish I had the time to go into further detail. I find it absolutely appalling and ridiculous that another tragedy of a star horse had to occur for some of the tracks, organizations, and possibly CEOs to start talking about the breakdowns in the sport when there are hundreds of fatal breakdowns that occur every year. Not only is this the time to talk, but to start taking action. Quite frankly, and I’m sure many would agree with me, I believe that many are tired of the lack of action. The longevity of the sport is in jeopardy. Horse racing needs to change, and needs to focus more on the stars of the sport...the horses. While I think that organizations like PETA are often too radical (blaming the jockey, owner, or use of the whip in Eight Belles death was absurd), I am glad that a prominent organization with some power has began to take a hard look at horse racing. However, again, I find it atrocious that another star horse had to be euthanized for so many to take notice. I really do hope that some good will come out of the beautiful filly’s untimely death. I am just very sorry that it had to come to that. Again, thank you so much for allowing everyone to participate and send in their suggestions. RIP Eight Belles.



    I plan on going to get my PhD/DVM after this college so that I can do something to possibly change horse racing for the better. I'm tired of not being able to do anything, so I am going to put myself in a more favorable position to possibly have a chance to do something for the horses.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filly85' View Post
    Here is a letter that I sent to the President of the NTRA many times before, and never received a response back...
    Your passion and ambition are commendable, so please don't take this personally; use paragraphs and keep it succinct.

    Editors and persons having to sort through vast amounts of mail will often throw letters such as the one you posted directly into the round file because they are literally hard to read.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnfairy View Post
    Your passion and ambition are commendable, so please don't take this personally; use paragraphs and keep it succinct.

    Editors and persons having to sort through vast amounts of mail will often throw letters such as the one you posted directly into the round file because they are literally hard to read.
    I couldn't use paragraphs because this was a post in response to an article. I copied and pasted from where I had saved it and didn't feel like breaking it up just to post it here. The NTRA said that the president was personally responding to many of the posts in response to the article.

    Some others' posts in response to that particular article were just as long as mine or longer. In fact, a lot of them were longer.

    So, are you saying that I should send in a whole lot of different short points? You cannot make these types of points without utilizing examples and additional information, and then it still doesn't get through to them. I mean, it took a horse to die for them to seriously "start talking" about safety concerns. So, in the end, it really doesn't matter what I think or say at the moment.

    As far as Steve Haskin goes, he is a writer who is good for the racing fans. He is a nice guy. I don't have anything against him. We both think that Spectacular Bid was the greatest horse of all time. That gets two thumbs up in my opinion because not many other people believe that. As far as him suffering the blood, sweat, and tears of hands on experience, I don't think he has done that too much.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filly85' View Post
    As far as Steve Haskin goes, he is a writer who is good for the racing fans. We both think that Spectacular Bid was the greatest horse of all time. That gets two thumbs up in my opinion because not many other people believe that.
    I think Steve, like me, only states that Spectacular Bid was the greatest race horse he's ever witnessed run - or maybe it's in his lifetime. He doesn't go so far as to say he's over say Citation or MOW. That's where I land as well

    Sadly Steve ranked 'Break Water Edison' as his #4 horse for the (2009) Derby trail and he bombed yesterday running more like Budwesier hitch horse!



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filly85' View Post
    So, are you saying that I should send in a whole lot of different short points?
    I'm saying state your point and leave it at that, especially if, as you say, it was a format which would not allow paragraphs. Long winded jumbles of words get ignored.

    Glad to see you agree not all members of "the media" deserve to be painted with a broad brush.



  15. #15
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    Halo is right about Beyer: he's an idiot when it comes to horses. He's a horseplayer, not a horseman. I cursed his name for 20 years, until I learned to just ignore his byline.

    DH, who is a cabinet-maker, did Beyer's kitchen and says his wife is very astute. DH used to come home with the Washington Post and say "Andy's got a column today," and I'd say "That's nice, dear. Too bad we don't have a fireplace."
    Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.



  16. #16
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    From the Lowell Mass "Lowell Sun" (Feb 1, 2009) remarks from 'This Ones For Phil' original owner:

    In an effort to lend some balance to the issue, The Sun conducted an exclusive interview on Friday with Campbell, who bred This Ones For Phil at his Stonehedge Farm in Williston, Fla., and owned him for his first eight career starts.

    "We bred our stallion, Untuttable, to our mare Heaven's Gate, making him a half-brother to Tap Dancer, who ran sixth for us in the mile-and-a-half Belmont Stakes of 2004," said Campbell. "We always thought he had good potential and he made $90,000 for us as a 2-year-old. We gelded him because we didn't think he'd be that attractive as a stallion. That's not unusual for us.

    "Because of his distance breeding and the way he was training," continued Campbell, "Kathleen O'Connell decided to run him long on the grass, and he did well. But we also saw the tactical speed and, had we kept him, I was going to point him for the Sunshine Millions Dash myself.

    "Then we got a call from a guy in Ocala, asking if we were interested in selling This Ones For Phil," continued Campbell, who has bred and raced such good horses as Blazing Sword and Ivanvinalot and annually ranks in the top 20 breeders in the country.

    "He offered me twice what I thought he was worth, but I didn't accept on the spot. I didn't want to seem too anxious. But I did call him back the next day and the deal was done.

    "I'll give the Dutrow operation credit," emphasized Campbell, who made the decision strictly from a business perspective. "They did their homework and knew how hard the Calder track can be on horses. But when someone makes you an offer you can't refuse you have to listen."



  17. #17
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    Default Ummm....Filly85

    [Filly85 - Horse racing in the United States needs to follow the other horse disciplines such as show jumping and dressage, in which a national (USAE or USDF respectively) organization has ultimate authority, and are in charge of all of the rules and punishments so that there is consistency.]

    Correction - I feel I must point out that the National Governing Body (NGB) for Show Jumping in America is the USEF (U.S. Equestrian Federation) - it has been the USEF for many years. Originally, it was called the American Horse Shows Association (AHSA), then switched to U.S. Equestrian Association (USEA), and now is the USEF.

    The NGB for Eventing is USAE (U.S.A. Eventing). It used to be the USCTA.

    The NGB for Dressage is indeed the USDF.

    As far as the media comment....are you going to tell me that the late Joe Hirsch's opinion didn't matter? Joe was brilliant and cared deeply for this sport. The media is a part of horse racing - a racing journalist depends on horse racing to pay the bills just like everyone else in the biz - trainers, owners, grooms, exercise riders, hotwalkers, vets, the feed man, photographers, straw suppliers, etc.

    Yeah, maybe I'm a little sensitive because I write about horses and a lot of my friends also do....but, in my case, I'm lucky enough to be also involved in racing as an owner and breeder, along with doing what I can to rehab and rescue TBs when required.

    Okay, everyone, carry on!

    Hallie I. McEvoy
    Racing Dreams, LLC



  18. #18
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    Hallie, it is because of people like you that I wrote what I did about Haskin and not painting the media with such a broad brush.

    The media plays a very important role, connecting fans to the game, helping attract new blood. The ability to craft a well-written article or book, or to communicate on camera -- these are respectable skills not to be scoffed at. It is also not lost on me that the very forum we are participating on here is provided to us courtesy of a fine publication.

    Sure, there are some blowholes out there, but by the same token, there also exist dirtbag trainers not deserving of the term "horseman."

    That said....last I checked the NGB for eventing is the USEA (United States Eventing Association), unless they've gone and changed the darn name yet again....I can't keep up with it either!
    Last edited by Barnfairy; Feb. 2, 2009 at 07:47 PM. Reason: spelling...see? It's not so easy to write well!



  19. #19
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    I apologize to those of you that I offended, and I hope my PMs cleared things up! Sorry to turn this thread into a controversial topic not dealing with the OP. Carry on.



  20. #20
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    PM back at ya



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