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  1. #1
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Default Shoulder-In Help..

    I have a 7 year old 17hh Irish Sport Horse gelding and he is ready to start shoulder ins. I want him to learn them in the best way possible. He is still pretty green.

    How did you teach your horse? That is all I want to know is how did you teach your horse.


    Any training tips will be greatly appreciated!!!



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pIU95l9zI
    Last edited by TheBrightSide06; Jan. 29, 2009 at 10:06 AM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov. 25, 2008
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    Start it at the walk. Always start anything like that at the walk: shoulder in, haunches in, half pass, renvers. That way he can figure out where to put his feet. Second level test one sets you up for your first shoulder in by coming off a 10m circle so you get the right amount of bend around your leg. The most important part is making sure he brings his shoulders off the track and doesn't scoot his butt off the track to the outside. Make sure you start it on a wall and that will help. I have to put my outside leg back and on a decent bit on my boy to keep his butt in place. If you can get it at the walk pretty consistently then the trot won't be so bad. If you just start it at the trot you'll probably be wiggling all over the place! The other best advice: patience is a virtue! Shoulder in was my nemesis for a while. It was hard for my horse going one way and we both were learning together. If you have a friend who has a horse that is confirmed in shoulder in see if you can hop on her horse. It's easier to teach your horse if you know what it should feel like. Good luck!



  3. #3
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Default thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by n2dressage View Post
    Start it at the walk. Always start anything like that at the walk: shoulder in, haunches in, half pass, renvers. That way he can figure out where to put his feet. Second level test one sets you up for your first shoulder in by coming off a 10m circle so you get the right amount of bend around your leg. The most important part is making sure he brings his shoulders off the track and doesn't scoot his butt off the track to the outside. Make sure you start it on a wall and that will help. I have to put my outside leg back and on a decent bit on my boy to keep his butt in place. If you can get it at the walk pretty consistently then the trot won't be so bad. If you just start it at the trot you'll probably be wiggling all over the place! The other best advice: patience is a virtue! Shoulder in was my nemesis for a while. It was hard for my horse going one way and we both were learning together. If you have a friend who has a horse that is confirmed in shoulder in see if you can hop on her horse. It's easier to teach your horse if you know what it should feel like. Good luck!

    My pony knows shoulder in, half pass, haunches in, and we even played a bit with piaffe and some pirouettes. I know what it feels like, I just need to learn how to teach a younger, less supple horse how to.



  4. #4
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    Jun. 13, 2001
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    usa
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    On this forum, and the dressage one, you are told how to do it (and you know how apparently). The question then is when to present it at all. It is not just being able to create the exercise, but what the exercise brings to better balance, more engagement, higher collection, opened bearing. It is simply inappropriate for a use on a very green horse, they must do all the work of first level well before it is presented (wtc, lengthen stride, be on to bit, not dropped behind, etc).

    A few other comments: this is a very talented horse, and you are generally well aligned in your seat. However, the hands must stay closer together, the elbows bended (esp in trot work) with the upper arms vertical). The timing of the aids must be explained and improved. But for usefullness (esp for sf/si) the walk work the horse must be allowed to bascule/telescope within the gait. If you attempted to do sf or si at this point in the horses training in it would be very problematic. Because of the lack of flexability in your shoulder socket and elbow in the walk the horse does not stay out/open to the bridle, instead it starts to lower/curl/'peck' within its neck. First job is to be able feed the reins out and take them up without changing the energy of the walk or causing the neck's telescoping action to be restricted. Only then will the trot be (more) relaxed in the lumbar back. Keep trying to get the feeling/energy that you get in a caveletti or to a fence. The second job is to be able to ride an effective hh (again, shades of how a horse approaches a fence in front of the leg), then the hindlegs will take longer strides and allow the energy to be formed (ie into a shoulder fore or in).
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  5. #5
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    Sep. 13, 2002
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    A few other comments: this is a very talented horse, and you are generally well aligned in your seat. However, the hands must stay closer together, the elbows bended (esp in trot work) with the upper arms vertical). The timing of the aids must be explained and improved. But for usefullness (esp for sf/si) the walk work the horse must be allowed to bascule/telescope within the gait. If you attempted to do sf or si at this point in the horses training in it would be very problematic. Because of the lack of flexibility in your shoulder socket and elbow in the walk the horse does not stay out/open to the bridle, instead it starts to lower/curl/'peck' within its neck. First job is to be able feed the reins out and take them up without changing the energy of the walk or causing the neck's telescoping action to be restricted. Only then will the trot be (more) relaxed in the lumbar back. Keep trying to get the feeling/energy that you get in a caveletti or to a fence. The second job is to be able to ride an effective half halt (again, shades of how a horse approaches a fence in front of the leg), then the hind legs will take longer strides and allow the energy to be formed (ie into a shoulder fore or in).
    I agree. There are some issues to sort out first.
    The bold phrases I agree with and will be your down fall at this point (when it comes to your goal of SI). Pretty much they mean that your feel and connection are not established at this point.
    There is no established half halt here.

    Yes, lovely horse and he trots around all pretty like but in reality, there is nothing going on.
    Not much connection and a total lack of butt usage. And the more forward he goes the more behind him his hind legs become. It's great to have a horse with natural talent. Their every day is better then most horses good days. So now you have to make your good day better then your everyday, which you have not addressed yet. Does that make sense? Everyday greatness is only the topping. Go down there and find the rest of the volcano. Time to put some pressure on.

    That being said, SF and then some SI will help you bring his hind end under him.


    He is still pretty green, knows turn on the forehand/haunches, leg yielding, collections, and extensions.

    From the video presented I'm thinking there is less understanding from the horse's standpoint then what you feel.
    You cannot extend without collection and SI comes well before a true established connection.

    Hence the reason you see SI and trot LENGTHEN in a Prelim test but NO Collection until Intermediate.
    And then Intermediate has Medium trots and collected trots.
    Advanced has extensions, mediums, and collect.

    Remember, lengthen comes from a working trot.
    Medium and Extension comes from a collected trot.
    From the video you're horse clearly has working and some beginnings of lengthen.


    Now, as you've gotten more then you asked for, to answer your real question:
    For shoulder in, yes, walk is good first.
    half halt in the corner, get him up and under a little more
    put on your inside leg AT THE GIRTH because he is to bend around your leg like a 10m circle, support with the outside leg behind the girth and hold on to that outside rein. You must also lift your hands and carry them in the correct position from now on. The rein is what keeps him from going to the center of the arena and keeps him on the rail.
    If you can do it with a schooled horse you can do it with a green horse.
    It's a very simple move to say the least. Easier then leg yield I think because the horse wants to bend. Most get a little miffed when they have to stay so straight with LY.
    http://kaboomeventing.com/
    http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
    Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!



  6. #6
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    Apr. 13, 2008
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    For teaching green horses to develop a good shouldar-in. Will work them from the ground, having the them learn to pivot around me in both directions and stepping across and in front of their supporting legs. While mounted, I work on shouldar-fore at the walk and trot. As the horse develops strength and balance the angle can be increased developing a solid, forward, and resistant-free shouldar-in. Best of luck in your training.



  7. #7
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    Sep. 21, 2007
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    Default

    Your horse a bit unbalanced in that video, but that thing can move. What breed is he? How old? I really quite like him. He looks a bit of a baby in how he wiggles a bit. I don't have time to do the shoulder in thing for you right now



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jagged View Post
    Your horse a bit unbalanced in that video, but that thing can move. What breed is he? How old? I really quite like him. He looks a bit of a baby in how he wiggles a bit. I don't have time to do the shoulder in thing for you right now
    Yea, we are teaching him to balance and he is really improving.
    Ha! Thank you so much! He is an Irish Sport Horse and he just turned 7.



  9. #9
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    Nov. 9, 2005
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    uk
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    Default

    look here http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=178116
    you need to learn the half halts before the si and leg yeilds
    look at the fourth link before janes then read janes to



  10. #10
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    Dec. 27, 1999
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    Midland, NC, USA
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    Default

    I don't think this horse is doing extensions and collections as in the video he's not even really using his butt and there's not a lot of half-halt going on.... he is just trotting faster and trotting slower with his hind legs strung out behind him.... if you cannot feel that you probably are not going to be able to get correct shoulder in, and incorrect shoulder in causes significant problems.... Shoulder in is a COLLECTED movement, and is used to improve collection and use of the hindquarters..... he needs to be really solid in working gaits and half-halting and carrying himself first.

    There is a difference between 'tricks' and 'dressage movements'. There is a 'trainer' near here who quit taking lessons with me because she wanted to work on "half pass" and I wanted her to be able to trot with her horse on the bit first! Yes, her 'dressage horse' would go sideways at the trot and canter, very flashy, he looked very spirited with his ears up her nose too! Another 'trainer' called me for lessons b/c she wanted to show 2nd level, she executed canter/walk transitions with no contact by grinding her butt into her horse's back until he broke with his head in the air and thought she was good to go. Don't fall into that trap!

    Jennifer



  11. #11
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Default

    Guys, I am just wanting to know how YOU taught YOUR horse how to shoulder-in, not how I should teach MY horse how to shoulder-in.
    I just wanted to know different techniques you have used to teach them.
    I know what I need to work on, that lesson was getting him lower, not about shoulder-in. We have both improved since then and it is kind of hurting when people are telling me "No way you could improve in a few weeks."
    Kobie is very smart and he learns very fast. That is why I say we have gotten better since last lesson...



  12. #12
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    Jan. 8, 2008
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    Amherst, MA
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    Default A method to Shoulder In

    SillyKobe

    Very nice horse, 3 good gaits and you sit well and seem to have a good relationship with your horse. I agree it is time to ask more, here is my training path to shoulder in, take what you may, I hope an additional insight helps.

    First always consider the German training scale when working. The first four levels of Rhythm, Relaxation, Connection and then Imuplsion need to be kept in succession for good development.

    First a responsive gait, rhythmic and in front of the leg is essential. Start with the slowest gait and work up.

    Second when the horse is responsive then be specific, will you move away from my leg? Again start slow. At the Halt, turn on the forehand must be precise and controled and in both directions equally. Next will you move the hind quarters at the walk - leg yield. Again both directions equally and able to control the haunches VERY IMPORTANT because the most frequent mistake of the SI is the haunches go out so they must be controlled with the leg behind the girth. LY should also be done at the trot with a fairly straight horse.

    Third. Starting SI. Remember the focus is to move the outside shoulder to the inside of the track in either a shoulder fore (inside hind leg between the prints of the fore legs) or shoulder in. The horse must also wait for the outside rein, this means you ask when there is bend, this is not yet a Half Halt but the horse must know how to wait and keep stepping (don't stop the hindlegs). This can be quickly taught but riding deep corners and making down transitions going into the corners. Now you have an aid for the horse to wait and thus the opportunity to change the direction of the shoulders.

    Fourth. Making SI. Good advise in this thread before. Start at the walk. In the walk I don't use the circle so much as turn the horse in, push a couple of strides with the insidel leg at the girth to direct the inside hindleg toward the outside diagonal shoulder. Go 3 or 4 steps and straighten, reward with a softer rein or maybe a pat on the neck. Repeat. Get to where you can do this 3 times on a long side in each direction. You can make circles to rebalance and prepare. This is where I think the circle is best, not to start the SI, but finish your circle go straight and ask again. If you do it off the circle, say on the left hand, you are circling left and then telling the horse to go right - can be confusing. I prefer to bend and turn the horse from the straight line all the while telling the horse to continue to the right with my inside leg and always being on guard with the outside leg to steady the haunches.

    Going Ahead. Do this 3 times one direction, 3 times the other. Take a break with some trot and surpentines or even canter work. Come back and do it again, 3 left, 3 right. As the horse gets the idea and if the balance is not compormised or the relaxation or quality of connection, I will try in the trot as well.

    Personally I find if the horse is taught in this manner and has a good idea about moving from the leg, waiting from the "steady aids" (hand, shoulder, back and seat) that shoulder in can be done quite early with a horse, 3 months under saddle, a few strides at a time is good.

    I hope this helps, I know it is long but the communication must be clear, sequential and should not interfere with the training scale. The hore must be more relaxed after the exercise than when it was introduced.



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