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  1. #21
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    Equinelaw?? Any thoughts?



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post
    The one that says a person shall not "be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." I think there is a strong argument that dogs are property.
    They sure are considered property, and they're pretty much worthless. Just try to get some compensation if you lose your dog. I didn't sue when my dog was attacked, I could have but the owners paid the bill, probably to keep the claim from ever showing up with their insurance company. Even a legitimate malpractice claim would cost you far more than your dog would be worth, which is a few hundred dollars, at most.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pintopiaffe View Post
    Isn't the actuality that Black labs are the culprits in more dog bites a year than ANY other breed???
    I don't know if that's true, but right about the time my dog was attacked, my friend's greyhound was attacked, by a Lab, ripped his chest open and required about 20 staples. Oh, according to this, it's ten year old - pits and rotties lead the way:
    http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=2&gl=us



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkers On View Post
    3 dog attack fatalities in the last 43 years...??? So there are ample pits running rampant in Montana killing people? What is the basis for needing BSL in a state that really has next to 0 dog attack related deaths in the last 43 years?

    A constituent in the reps district was attacked recently. He was walking his dog and the pit crawled underneath the fence and attacked the guy and his dog. The dog almost died and the constituent is considering legal action against the owner.

    The bill will probably die; the rep was probably just trying to respond to a constituents complaint and will withdraw it or just let it die and then be able to at least tell the constituent that she tried.

    I don't like BSL either - it's the knee jerk reaction to the "I'm afraid of big black dogs" mentality. Still, this breed does do a helluva lot more damage when they attack than a pomeranian does. You've got to watch out for BSL and the "dangerous dog" registries. Some of these bills end up making any dog that chases a squirrel into a "dangerous dog".

    It gets awfully ridiculous.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkers On View Post
    Equinelaw?? Any thoughts?
    Yeah, out of all the discussions on this subject both from dog people legislators, nobody a has ever said something so simple and brilliant as just enforce the leash laws! Attacks on non-family members are almost always loose dogs. It would be a hell of a lot easier and cheaper to just enforce the laws we already have and fine the crap out of people the first time they are off leash.

    As of for being Governmental taking, if you look at the actual text, its not. They allow you to keep the dog you already have. They are just saying you cannot get any more. Nothing is being taken--its just being outlawed in the future.

    Its a valid point in places where the law was not properly constructed. However, it would actually have to be fought all the way to the Supreme Court to get a ruling that would get you the $100 or so the dog is worth, if they even took the case.

    If I had a few extra million and they took my dog I'd argue it, but being right doesn't get you the Law, being well funded is the only way to do that.

    I had a pair of Pit bulls years ago. I would never have them again because of all the crap I went through to own them. The last one was taken out of my yard, for no reason except she barked at a kid on the other side of the fence, and killed. As I have mentioned before, that pissed me off. It became the law school application essay that got me a honors scholarship. It has a lot to do with why I am a lawyer.

    I have paid attention for about 15 years now? I do not like the trend, but I do not see anyone fighting it. Those who can afford to fight can afford to move or afford to ignore the laws.

    I like Pit bulls and have never had a problem with one. Trying to convince a court about that is another story.

    I would actually attack this law based on some other right. I know it sounds stupid, but I'd have a better chance proving its based on the race of the owners then the breed of the dog. And those cases include attorneys fees if you win.



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by AiryFairy View Post
    I don't know if that's true, but right about the time my dog was attacked, my friend's greyhound was attacked, by a Lab, ripped his chest open and required about 20 staples. Oh, according to this, it's ten year old - pits and rotties lead the way:
    http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=2&gl=us

    The dog bite lists usually only include the dogs that do reportable damage. If they were accurate the Cocker Spaniel would top the list.

    Labs do not top the list. The breed responsible for 50% of all reported attacks is. . . drum roll. . . . . . mixed breed or unknown.
    The other 49% is broken down by the usual suspects. Usually 10 of them so the dogs at the top of the list could really only be responsible for less then 10% of attacks.



  7. #27
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    Thanks Equinelaw.
    I say I'll never own another breed than pit. maybe that would change if someone took my girl from me. I've never met such loyalty and character. What she has endured in the last 9 weeks has not changed her personality. She has had 2 surgeries, serious confinement, and she is still happy go lucky, silly and fun and a cuddle bug. During that time she went on a road trip that was 30 hours one way, met new people, kids, lived in new living spaces, you name it she has done it all while in pain and ought to be grumpy from the pain and lack of activity. She has one more surgery left to remove the hardware in her leg, and she continues to impress me! She is a favorite everywhere she goes... and the common thing overheard is " ooh another vicious pitbull" dripping with sarcasm. Her wagging tail gives her away every time! Her tail wags her entire hind end!
    She never "sinks" and always swims when introduced to something new.
    I've been told she is an ambassador for the breed, should be a therapy dog. No one has anything bad to say once they meet her. I've done nothing special with her but educate and socialize. She blows me away! I would go more than half loopy if she was taken away and euthanized.
    I researched the pit before I brought her home. And there is too much evidence to the fact that they are on the recieving end of unbelievable abuse! Their loyalty makes them a mark.
    A girlfriend and I were talking recently. Her dog was a drug protecting dog till the day my friend adopted her at the age of 5. She was basically parked in front of a load of drugs and if she didn't protect it she was beaten.
    She is a mix breed. No pit. She is now 15 For 10 years she has been nothing but an incredible story!
    But we were talking about how our dogs are friendly but they are very aware of our comfort levels in situations. And how hackles go up. My old dog places himself between me and the person that is making me feel unsafe. Her's does the same.
    To me those are good behaviours. Both of my dogs are FAR from aggressive, but they can look big and mean, even if they aren't.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinelaw View Post
    The dog bite lists usually only include the dogs that do reportable damage. If they were accurate the Cocker Spaniel would top the list.

    Labs do not top the list. The breed responsible for 50% of all reported attacks is. . . drum roll. . . . . . mixed breed or unknown.
    The other 49% is broken down by the usual suspects. Usually 10 of them so the dogs at the top of the list could really only be responsible for less then 10% of attacks.
    Here's another take on the statistics (and I guess you'd have to consider the source):
    http://www.dogbitelaw.com/

    Dog attacks are associated with one or more of the following circumstances:

    * More than one dog in their own yard, and no master present. In 2008, 78% of the human fatalities were by dogs in their own yard.

    * Pit bull, Rottweiler, Akita or Chow. Most fatal dog attacks are by pit bulls. In 2008, 65% of the fatalities were by pit bulls.

    * The pack mentality. Three dogs are worse than 2, 4 are worse than 3, etc. Docile dogs often become uncharacteristically violent and vicious when they are in a pack. In 2008, 39% of the fatalities involved multiple dogs.



  9. #29
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    Um. . . . that website is a mish mash of numbers picked out of other people's works. I don't know the guy, but "dog homicide"

    I looked past the stats he picked out to the paper he sites. The guy collected reports from 1980 something until now. He collected them from newspapers articles and other sources.

    He has 1 Cocker Spaniel bite in all those years. I have been bitten by more Cockers than that in one year of dog grooming I did not, however, hold a press conference afterward. I just, like all other dog groomers, raised the price to groom Cockers and learned how to avoid being bit.

    Certain breeds are more likely to kill because they can. That doesn't mean lots of other breeds don't try

    Any dog large enough to kill might kill. When you have a pack of dogs they might kill.

    But check out the actual link. Its kind of funny. He has a JRT listed because it bit a sick persons lip and they later died of the infection? A poodle that was involved in some kind of drug death? A pack of 10 Airedales? Giant Terriers are bad enough, but a pack of 10?? WTF?

    He reported what he news reported and only reported identifiable breeds or mixes. He also explains that laws will not work and only a "certain class" of people have these dangerous dogs. Hmmm. What "class" would that be? Michael Vick's class perhaps?

    That Plaintiff's attorney is not linking to the CDC site? Did I miss that somewhere?

    78% were dogs off leash in the victims yard? Enforce the leash laws. That might weed out the asshats early on?


    Ewwwwww. If I ever make a web-site that that one, please somebody stop me. I tried clicking on the links to the CDC and they take me back to the home page. He sells so-it-your self litigation stuff? Is this one man driving the whole panic?
    Last edited by equinelaw; Jan. 13, 2009 at 11:46 PM. Reason: More horrified then before. . .



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by AiryFairy View Post
    Here's another take on the statistics (and I guess you'd have to consider the source):
    http://www.dogbitelaw.com/

    Dog attacks are associated with one or more of the following circumstances:

    * More than one dog in their own yard, and no master present. In 2008, 78% of the human fatalities were by dogs in their own yard.

    * The pack mentality. Three dogs are worse than 2, 4 are worse than 3, etc. Docile dogs often become uncharacteristically violent and vicious when they are in a pack. In 2008, 39% of the fatalities involved multiple dogs.
    Again, I bet the dogs in the yard were loose or chained. I do think chaining a dog makes them more agressive. They can't get away so you get a fear/aggression. If not chained then a person holding a leash should take care of it.

    A pack of any kind of dog will be a problem. Unless you are Cesar Milan. Have you ever been to the dog park...viscous stuff. Crazy hyper pack of dogs.

    Blinkers On: I love love love my dobermans too and am loyal to my breed, but I admit they have caused me stress. People cross the street when we are coming, even though they are at my side, in heel position and totally under control. I take obedience training seriously. I have to watch my male like a hawk because he does exhibit dog aggression in some group settings (no dogpark for him). He was a rescue and mistreated (don't get me started on the breed rescue itself...witholding some important info...like why the dog was surrendered). He has also given us an ER bill when my husband leaned over him when the dog was asleep and he snapped first and woke up second. Lots of pressure to put him down. I trust him 100 percent with us but not with kids or other dogs. Doesn't mind the cats though...

    My whole point is that you have to be a responsible dog owner and there are people that never will be. But in creating laws there should be a level of fairness (not BSL) and you have to punish everyone breaking the law (leash law) or have harsher standards protecting victims.

    Maybe I will just make sure my next doberman (helps if they are reds) has natural ears and a natural tail...What doberman? That's a redbone coon hound.
    Last edited by TrotTrotPumpkn; Jan. 13, 2009 at 11:51 PM. Reason: removed comment with wrong facts. Leola, SD did grandfather existing dogs.



  11. #31
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    Angry

    People are asshats. I have a mutt (most probably some pit) and a pure bred pit. Everyone that comes to my house wants to take "that white dog" home, meaning my pit bull. Many have a hard time believing she is a pit because she is sooooooo sweet. This lady deserves to loose her job and have her head checked. It makes me so mad. Oh look here is my pit now licking my hand to say "hi mom."
    "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." Mark Twain



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinelaw View Post
    Um. . . . that website is a mish mash of numbers picked out of other people's works. I don't know the guy, but "dog homicide"

    I looked past the stats he picked out to the paper he sites. The guy collected reports from 1980 something until now. He collected them from newspapers articles and other sources.

    He has 1 Cocker Spaniel bite in all those years. I have been bitten by more Cockers than that in one year of dog grooming I did not, however, hold a press conference afterward. I just, like all other dog groomers, raised the price to groom Cockers and learned how to avoid being bit.

    Certain breeds are more likely to kill because they can. That doesn't mean lots of other breeds don't try

    Any dog large enough to kill might kill. When you have a pack of dogs they might kill.

    But check out the actual link. Its kind of funny. He has a JRT listed because it bit a sick persons lip and they later died of the infection? A poodle that was involved in some kind of drug death? A pack of 10 Airedales? Giant Terriers are bad enough, but a pack of 10?? WTF?

    He reported what he news reported and only reported identifiable breeds or mixes. He also explains that laws will not work and only a "certain class" of people have these dangerous dogs. Hmmm. What "class" would that be? Michael Vick's class perhaps?

    That Plaintiff's attorney is not linking to the CDC site? Did I miss that somewhere?

    78% were dogs off leash in the victims yard? Enforce the leash laws. That might weed out the asshats early on?

    Ewwwwww. If I ever make a web-site that that one, please somebody stop me. I tried clicking on the links to the CDC and they take me back to the home page. He sells so-it-your self litigation stuff? Is this one man driving the whole panic?
    Well, like I said, consider the source, he might not be driving the whole panic, but he certainly seems to be trying to make a living from it, and has instructions on how to find the "deep pocket". You can even download his book! Nuff said. I think there's a big difference between dog bites, and dog attacks, the snappy little foofoo dogs who don't like their bums groomed vs. the stealth attack of three loose pit bulls, should be different stats if you ask me.



  13. #33
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    I think the CDC site has some good stats. They have bites and deaths and breed. But his link would not take me there and I was too lazy

    But thanks for pointing out that site. I can just see that guy with his fake tan and capped teeth and perfect hair shaking hands at some state house and making a big impact.

    I have seen that site before, but my how it has grown!!!!

    And do Pits have their tails docked? His source said one of the reasons they are hard to read is because of their docked tails. I have seen them with ears docked, but tails? Is that common?

    And yeah, have a Dobe with long ears and tail and its suddenly a big Labx

    I think there has been a recent explosion in the number of Pits and Pitx's so I would expect the stats to go up. Have they? Or is it just because I live in SC that I see soooo many of them?



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post
    A pack of any kind of dog will be a problem. Unless you are Cesar Milan. Have you ever been to the dog park...viscous stuff. Crazy hyper pack of dogs.

    My whole point is that you have to be a responsible dog owner and there are people that never will be. But in creating laws there should be a level of fairness (not BSL) and you have to punish everyone breaking the law (leash law) or have harsher standards protecting victims.
    Interestingly, one of Cesar's show last year showed him dealing with some vicious pits he was trying to rehab with his pack, suddenly one dog attacked another and it was an all out brawl, every dog in his pack was in the fight. That was shocking to me. Then precious Daddy was attacked by the female, and his response was to do nothing. I love that dog, I'd take him in a second.

    Responsible dog owners, IMO count for about half. I was responsible, I was on public land, far away from anyone, my dog was on a six foot leash, and she still got mauled and nearly done in. I can't go to the beach EVER without some asshat's unleashed dog charging over with his teeth bared and his hackles up, spoiling for a fight. And the idiot yells "he's friendly!". Tell that to the Animal Control Officer, buddy.



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinelaw View Post
    I think the CDC site has some good stats. They have bites and deaths and breed. But his link would not take me there and I was too lazy

    But thanks for pointing out that site. I can just see that guy with his fake tan and capped teeth and perfect hair shaking hands at some state house and making a big impact.

    I have seen that site before, but my how it has grown!!!!

    And do Pits have their tails docked? His source said one of the reasons they are hard to read is because of their docked tails. I have seen them with ears docked, but tails? Is that common?

    And yeah, have a Dobe with long ears and tail and its suddenly a big Labx

    I think there has been a recent explosion in the number of Pits and Pitx's so I would expect the stats to go up. Have they? Or is it just because I live in SC that I see soooo many of them?

    Nope, Pit Bulls should not have their tails docked. There are some Mastiff breeds that are often involved in attacks and dubbed "Pit Bulls" that have their tails docked.

    BSL really disgusts me. I have had dogs (labs, chihuahuas, dobies, rotties, mutts, OES, and pit bulls) my entire life, and the most intelligent, sweetest dogs ever were the Pit Bulls. I would trust my Pit Bulls any day over the chihuahuas and the Old English Sheepdog who is VERY aggressive.

    Currently I have 3 (two are mine, one a foster puppy), my parents have one I rescued as a pup, and my boyfriend's parents have 2 mixes that are rescues. My boyfriend and I volunteer for a Pit rescue and the horrendous things we have seen done to these dogs is unimaginable...and yet they still love humans. Dog aggression is more common in Pits than other dogs, but ANY dog can be dog aggressive, and it doesn't make it a bad dog, it just needs a GOOD home, which unfortunately are hard to come by.

    I do believe that the Pit Bull is a powerful, intelligent, impressive dog that is not for everyone, but they really are great, and in the right hands make the BEST pets.

    They tried proposing BSL here in Boston which got shot down luckily. We do have an ordinance that only the good pit owners follow so it's really stupid, because the people it SHOULD target are still walking around with their aggressive, un-fixed Pit Bulls on a chain....so sad.



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvercrown90 View Post
    I just wrote a respectful e-mail to Ms. Driscoll. But now that I think about it, I think we need to ban Female Democrats. It is obvious they can't be trusted, and are a hazard to society.
    AMEN!!!!!



  17. #37
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    You liberal leftists might want to examine you collective consciences....BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR because you just might GET it... More erosion of freedoms and growth of the power of the STATE. Get govt OUT of my life. Please. This is disgraceful. I know...let's TAX it!
    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.



  18. #38
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    Please keep the general political commentary out of the discussion and focus on the dog-related issues themselves.

    Thanks!
    Mod 1



  19. #39
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    A friend pointed me to this article:

    http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200.../060206fa_fact

    Troublemakers: What Pit Bulls Can Teach Us About Profiling
    by Malcolm Gladwell

    The article is quite long, so if you don't have time to read the whole thing, here are some interesting quotes from it:

    "A Georgia-based group called the American Temperament Test Society has put twenty-five thousand dogs through a ten-part standardized drill designed to assess a dog’s stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness in the company of people. A handler takes a dog on a six-foot lead and judges its reaction to stimuli such as gunshots, an umbrella opening, and a weirdly dressed stranger approaching in a threatening way. Eighty-four per cent of the pit bulls that have been given the test have passed, which ranks pit bulls ahead of beagles, Airedales, bearded collies, and all but one variety of dachshund."

    "A pit bull is dangerous to people, then, not to the extent that it expresses its essential pit bullness but to the extent that it deviates from it. A pit-bull ban is a generalization about a generalization about a trait that is not, in fact, general. That’s a category problem."

    “I’ve seen virtually every breed involved in fatalities, including Pomeranians and everything else, except a beagle or a basset hound,” Randall Lockwood, a senior vice-president of the A.S.P.C.A. and one of the country’s leading dogbite experts, told me. “And there’s always one or two deaths attributable to malamutes or huskies, although you never hear people clamoring for a ban on those breeds. When I first started looking at fatal dog attacks, they largely involved dogs like German shepherds and shepherd mixes and St. Bernards—which is probably why Stephen King chose to make Cujo a St. Bernard, not a pit bull. I haven’t seen a fatality involving a Doberman for decades, whereas in the nineteen-seventies they were quite common. If you wanted a mean dog, back then, you got a Doberman. I don’t think I even saw my first pit-bull case until the middle to late nineteen-eighties, and I didn’t start seeing Rottweilers until I’d already looked at a few hundred fatal dog attacks. Now those dogs make up the preponderance of fatalities. The point is that it changes over time. It’s a reflection of what the dog of choice is among people who want to own an aggressive dog.” (my emphasis)

    "The dogs that bite people are, in many cases, socially isolated because their owners are socially isolated, and they are vicious because they have owners who want a vicious dog. The junk-yard German shepherd—which looks as if it would rip your throat out—and the German-shepherd guide dog are the same breed. But they are not the same dog, because they have owners with different intentions."
    RIP Victor... I'll miss you, you big galumph.



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkers On View Post
    If my dog were subject to this trype of BS, I'd be living somewhere else in a heartbeat! Ignorrance is bliss for whom? The pit? The people who love them? And care for them and make the useful members in society?
    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10...s/DSCF0104.jpg
    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10...s/DSCF0298.jpg

    She comes very high on my list of priorities!
    http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...ageID=21686257

    Your girl looks like my new boy! Not the best pic, but all I can get right now. He belonged to a " friend" and has been passed around for a couple of months (through no fault of his own) He is so unbelievably skinny, looks nothing like the dog I knew several months ago. Long story short we took him home last night. He is already settling in and snoozing on the couch when I let this morning. Somehow I think my Keisha-dog had a little to do with this...
    "Farriers are the hairdressers of the horse world. They know everything about everybody..."-Lildunhorse



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