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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 2005
    Location
    Strasburg, PA "Just west of Paradise"
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    Thumbs down Classic Case of Abuse - "Spurs" - Even a "professional" can mis-use them.

    Classic Case of abuse. Obviously this trainer believes in negative reinforcement.


    from: http://horsemanslibrary.com/kb/NEWSview.asp?key=123
    (link has some graphic shots)

    The owner of this horse, her father, and a trainer friend went to visit her horse, unannounced, at Big Name Trainer's barn. Big Name Trainer was away at a horse show at the time. The owner found her horse with swollen legs, swollen lacerated muzzle, broken jaw, and spur scars on his sides. The wound on one side was dripping a nasty pus.

    There was water and feed in the horse's stall, but the horse was tied so that he could not reach it.

    The owner's veterinarian removed a couple of bone shards from the horse's jaw.

    I haved posted photos that I received from the owner, including scans of a letter written by her trainer friend.

    I do not know what the Big Name Trainer's role in any of this was, and he is welcome to post his point of view here.

    The owner contacted the AQHA Professional Horsemen Association, but as of this date, has not yet gotten a response from them regarding this matter.
    In this case I believe this trainer was going to "train" this horse at any cost.
    Last edited by 7HL; Jan. 25, 2009 at 09:44 PM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2007
    Location
    In the South, ya'll.
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    782

    Default

    Saw that on FHOTD...pretty gross and despicable.
    Worry, doubt, fear and despair are the enemies which slowly bring us down to the ground and turn us to dust before we die.

    ~ Douglas MacArthur



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2005
    Location
    Kentucky
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    Default

    Cleve Wells sucks.

    Last summer I was at a big show at the KHP and saw a girl dismounting her horse which had enormous gouges out of his sides from her spurs. When she saw us looking, she hurriedly threw a cooler over him. (In July.) I understand small rubs may happen from time to time, but gouges? It looked so painful.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2008
    Location
    Florida
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    155

    Default

    Plus he had a broken jaw and was tied in his stall so that he could not reach food or water.

    Kind of makes you wish you could put the trainer through the same pain.
    www.hawkstracefarm.com
    Home of Peggy, Doodles, Maggie, and Lexi the wonder horse!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2004
    Location
    California
    Posts
    441

    Default horse abused

    Holy Sh*!

    THAT is AWFUL! Disgusting, Horrid, Inhumane..

    Who would abuse a horse that badly....

    I don't think I'd be able to not KILL someone
    who had inflected that much abuse to my horse!

    J
    ‎"Luck favors the prepared, darling." ~~ Edna Mode



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 1, 2005
    Location
    Sandy, Utah
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    6,007

    Default

    I would not say this case is about the spurs. I'd say it's about someone who shouldn't be anywhere near horses, period.



  7. #7
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    Dec. 13, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley View Post
    I would not say this case is about the spurs. I'd say it's about someone who shouldn't be anywhere near horses, period.
    Probably so, but this guy uses them in his everyday training.

    There is using spurs and there is abusing with spurs. A professional should know the difference.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep. 28, 2001
    Location
    Kentucky
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    4,264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley View Post
    I would not say this case is about the spurs. I'd say it's about someone who shouldn't be anywhere near horses, period.
    Amen....I sure hope this guy is prosecuted!!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2006
    Location
    Eastern WV Panhandle
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    Default

    Update at link:

    I heard from Detective Shaw of the Johnson Co TX Sherriff's Dept that there is a case concerning the trainer, that was prepared and is pending before the District Attorney.

    Detective Shaw was not at liberty to give details, so we do not know if this case is the same matter as Nicole and Wayne's horse.

    Because District Attorneys elsewhere sometimes think that animal abuse cases aren't worth their time, I think perhaps it would be a good idea for folks to contact the DA to let him know that nationwide, we are watching and are very interested.

    When I get the contact information of the District Attorney, I will post it here.
    ETA: Can we bring back public flogging as a punishment?



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct. 1, 2005
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    Sandy, Utah
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7HL View Post
    Probably so, but this guy uses them in his everyday training.

    There is using spurs and there is abusing with spurs. A professional should know the difference.
    An amateur should know the difference, too. The point remains, spurs are apparently not this trainer's only fault, or possibly even the worst.

    I WEAR spurs in my everyday training and riding, too. I USE them when need be. So do many, many other riders in many, many disciplines.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    706

    Default

    My lord in heaven...this goes so far beyond spurs. Poor creature.

    I wear spurs, and use them as a training aid when they are necessary. Mine are sad, blunt little nubbies that, when I employ them, remind the horses I ride, "Hello! I AM up here, you can feel a fly land on your side, do you really expect me to buy that you don't feel my leg? Riiiiiiight." But you don't HAVE to use them, even a minimally educated leg can take a spur off and apply it again if necessary.

    But even those little blunt nubbies, used over and over or used hard, would hurt after a bit, esp. if use to punish a horse for what my own leg couldn't do (alas, so common!).

    Anyway...how terribly sad. That poor animal. Sometimes we miss, or rub (esp w/a winter coat) and I know I feel very bad when I do. This individual shouldn't even be allowed on a horse, if THAT is how he feels spurs should be applied.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar. 13, 2007
    Location
    California
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    334

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    This is less about spurs and more about an overall attitude of 'anything to win' on the trainer's part. Take away the spur wounds and you've still got a horse with a broken jaw. If WP horses weren't trained to do a spur stop it'd be whip welts or something else.

    Not sure what the negative reinforcement comment is all about, unless you've confused -R with + punishment. Pretty much the entire horse world believes in -R, I don't think that means we're on on Cleve's level.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 12, 2008
    Location
    Middleburg, VA
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    557

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    I sure hope for the horses sake that was inflicted all on one day. Don't get me wrong but I would not have wanted that type of riding to have been going on for long. If it was spread out over time then I do have to say shame on the owner for not checking in more often.
    Proud Mama of a BOY rider



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2007
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    4,227

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    That is horrible!!!! However the big gaping wound is clearly a girth gaul not from spurs. There are plenty of spur tracks on this horse as well. Not answers to the questions or an update as to how this animal is doing. Or even WHO did it! Mr. Wells or a flunky. BNT's do not ride every horse in their stables - their underlings do, and then the BNT "tunes it" and shows it. The BNT's only ride the ones they will show at the BIG level.

    DISGUSTING!!!!!



  15. #15
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    Sep. 25, 2005
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    Default

    They look like girth galls to me too. Spur wounds would be much farther back, and higher up.



  16. #16
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    Nov. 13, 2005
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    Kentucky
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodland View Post
    That is horrible!!!! However the big gaping wound is clearly a girth gaul not from spurs. There are plenty of spur tracks on this horse as well. Not answers to the questions or an update as to how this animal is doing. Or even WHO did it! Mr. Wells or a flunky. BNT's do not ride every horse in their stables - their underlings do, and then the BNT "tunes it" and shows it. The BNT's only ride the ones they will show at the BIG level.

    DISGUSTING!!!!!
    That is a good point, that it may have been one of his assistant trainers. I still think that Cleve Wells sucks as a human and horse trainer and he is clearly passing his "skills" on to others. I hope that the AQHA grows a set and does something about this, like kicking him out for life.



  17. #17
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    Jul. 21, 2006
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    South Carolina
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    If any good comes out of this at all, maybe this situation will encourage owners to monitor the condition of their horses while at the trainer's barn.



  18. #18
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    Sep. 6, 2000
    Location
    Decatur, GA
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    I don't think that the owner knew exactly what was going on. But i don't for one second think that the owner did not know that this trainer uses abusive techniques for training. I am quite sure that all of the horses are tied in their stalls for long periods of time and that they are tied with their heads to the side of their saddles and run around a round pen with their heads tied between their legs for an hour. I don't believe for a second that that is not routine in this barn. Abusive abusive abusive. This trainer just turned it up a notch. I have boarded with QH people who do this crap (and those that don't) and I believe the owner knew about most of it. I don't mean to say that the owner wanted their horses sides gouged up or his jaw broken but they should avoid trainers that use some of the worst QH training techniques.
    "What's so funny 'bout Peace Love and Understanding?" Elvis Costello



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec. 20, 2007
    Posts
    814

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    Not to stir the pot, but I have seen this practice on numerous western horses from BNT barns. Horses run for hours into exhaustion, whipped and spurred into bleeding lathered messes, horses heads tied to their stirrups and left in the pen for hours wandering in circles as they can't go straight due to being tied, horses tied from a rope hanging from the ceiling in the centre of the ring and left to stand with no food or water for a whole day. It really makes me wonder why this is so common in western circles? I do realise there are good and bad in every discipline, and I have a fabulous farrier who is an old school cowboy and is so kind to the horses, but why so extreme with the western crowd??



  20. #20
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    Jan. 12, 2007
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