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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by elctrnc View Post
    Then I had better go get the vaccine!
    Not a bad idea, really. Chickenpox in adults is occasionally really serious, and it's very dangerous to the unborn, as well, if the mother is infected while pregnant. May not apply in your case, of course, but it's a grave danger and a huge source of birth defects.

    Now, let me ask this question.....do we continuely vaccinate ourselves as adults???? No, we don't....so why do we continue to vaccinate our adult animals annually.
    Well, animals are animals and people are people--we DO, in fact, vaccinate our children a whole bunch (if we're smart) but they grow up and stop being kids fairly quickly. And are thereby largely DONE with the nasty, childhood diseases which are the things that used to decimate the population on a fairly regular basis. Dogs, cats, and horses are dogs, cats and horses their whole lives. Childhood is temporary. Not to mention the fact that (unless their lives are spent indoors) animals are exposed to a much larger pool of disease-carrying vectors than we are, and are far more likely to succumb to diseases (such as tetanus) that they are not only at much higher risk for due to their living conditions, but very, very poorly able to tolerate.

    The big "anti-vaccine" hype in people is going to cause havoc in about 10 years, when all these unvaccinated kiddies who rode on the wave of herd immunity start getting pregnant and getting infected while they're carrying their children. THOSE babies are the ones that are going to really suffer. It's scary and so very sad. Their poor parents never got protected, because of the good but erroneous intentions of THEIR parents. Birth defects are going to absolutely go through the roof, almost all of them preventable. The smart kids who haven't been vaccinated today will get themselves vaccinated before they start having kids of their own.
    Click here before you buy.



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    The big "anti-vaccine" hype in people is going to cause havoc in about 10 years, when all these unvaccinated kiddies who rode on the wave of herd immunity start getting pregnant and getting infected while they're carrying their children. THOSE babies are the ones that are going to really suffer. It's scary and so very sad. Their poor parents never got protected, because of the good but erroneous intentions of THEIR parents. Birth defects are going to absolutely go through the roof, almost all of them preventable. The smart kids who haven't been vaccinated today will get themselves vaccinated before they start having kids of their own.
    Deltawave: This is the first I have heard of this. I am very interested! Can you point me to some literature on it? Is there a high incidence of birth defects before the onset of vaccines? If there isn't, could it be because people got sick from such illnesses and survived, and thus passed on antibodies to their children? Fascinating.



  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by elctrnc View Post
    Deltawave: This is the first I have heard of this. I am very interested! Can you point me to some literature on it? Is there a high incidence of birth defects before the onset of vaccines? If there isn't, could it be because people got sick from such illnesses and survived, and thus passed on antibodies to their children? Fascinating.
    Well, I can tell you that my mother was one of 19 kids and 13 made it to grown, the others died from childhood diseases.
    That is the way people lived at the start of the 1900's and still live in many parts of the world today.
    When a kid was born severely handicapped, they generally were not kept alive very long, medicine was not that advanced then and maybe it was considered more humane to let them go.
    People didn't talk about those very private things, so we really don't know.



  4. #44
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    Just a comment on vaccinating adult people. Being prior military, I was given all sorts of vaccines that most Americans will never get unless they travel to third world nations...ie Yellow Fever, Typhoid, Plague...and my husband a Gulf War Vet was one that got the experimental Anthrax vaccine. Before deployment we were given IG shots also and I've had to prophylactically take Anti Malaria pills while in Central America...(Quinine) and that stuff made me so nauseous...but I am healthy today because of the preventative medicine we were given. Mr DDB and I are both doing OK in our 40s and haven't keeled over yet nor do we have any health problems that could be attributed to overvaccination.

    Keep in mind that America, for the most part, is a clean nation with insect control, clean living conditions, sewage control, and clean water supplies. That is not true to much of the world and infant mortality is a major problem due to disease and unsanitary conditions children are raised around. I agree that your average American adult does not need such vaccines and if we were well immunized as children, we are probably OK for most of our life if we stay in the US. To this day, certain areas of the world do require certain vaccinations if you want to visit. I've been to some of these places and believe me...you'd get the shots if you go somewhere where just drinking the water puts you at major risk. You can't even get a drink with ice cubes in it in some places.

    My own view that we probably do overvaccinate our animals to a degree. I think with all things some balance has to be taken into account for risk factors, age of the animal and how much exposure they get.



  5. #45
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    electrnc, thanks for posting those articles -- interesting.

    At the time (this was 2000) the vets at VA Tech thought her infection was the result of lack of twice-annual vaccination. Perhaps this is now outdated thinking, or perhaps the strain she had was not the modern one that is so contagious (hers was definitely the old-fashioned, "sitting" type that occurs at the end of the spinal cord). None of our other horses got it (we had 14 at the time), and it seems like with the recent outbreaks many more horses have been symptomatic. Maybe the vaccine is more effective against that type than the new mutation referred to in that literature.

    She survived her initial bout after spending a week at VA Tech, but suffered decreased gut motility as a result of the continuing neurologic impact and coliced chronically afterwards. She had never coliced before the EHV-1. About 2 years later she coliced badly and her stomach ruptured. We put her down on the operating table.

    Also, my horse was not part a neurologic EHV-1 outbreak, to our knowledge -- we've never heard of any other horses affected around that time, and VA Tech did not know of any.



  6. #46
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    "we are probably OK for most of our life if we stay in the US."

    ummm, no. Once again the anti-vaccs believers strike.....

    last year, as in 2008:
    http://pediatrics.about.com/b/2008/0...s-outbreak.htm

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm

    an unvaccinated 7 year old went to Switzerland, brought measles back to the USA,



  7. #47
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    elctrnc, my above "gloom and doom" bit was merely a speculative vision of a future when we're going to have adults, who have never been vaccinated against the "typical childhood illnesses", having children of their own. We know excruciatingly well the risks from intrauterine exposure to rubella, chickenpox, and other nasty things: devastating birth defects. One of the seldom-objected-to indications for "therapeutic abortion", in fact, is a non-immune mother contracting rubella, because her fetus is so very likely to be affected in horrible ways. (Note, I'm not making ANY commentary on abortion as "right" or "wrong"--only pointing out how very serious the risk of birth defects is with congenital rubella and other PREVENTABLE DISEASES).

    My hope is that today's unvaccinated kids will be made aware of these risks by talking to their own doctors, and get vaccinated before they start reproducing, for the sake of their OWN children. My fear, however, is that they will have been inculcated that "vaccines are evil" and will reject this safety measure, and the next generation will pay the price.

    Of course I'm very well aware that not all of the diseases that cause birth defects are preventable and not all of them have vaccines. But why would you want to take ANY chances?

    Check out references to "TORCH complex" for discussion--WebMD and Medscape are good resources.
    Click here before you buy.



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    "we are probably OK for most of our life if we stay in the US."

    ummm, no. Once again the anti-vaccs believers strike.....

    last year, as in 2008:
    http://pediatrics.about.com/b/2008/0...s-outbreak.htm

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm

    an unvaccinated 7 year old went to Switzerland, brought measles back to the USA,
    Go back and reread what I wrote...I said IF we are well vaccinated as children we are probably OK if we stay in the US. There's no way to stop a world pandemic if the infection is virulent enough. Think Spanish Flu or Avian Flu...really bad stuff and we are overdue...

    Remember Stephen King's book The Stand... "The World Will Not End in a Bang, but in a Whimper...."

    Get your kids, puppies, kittens and foals vaccinated. Use common sense for revaccinating adults of all species.



  9. #49
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    oops, my bad, sorry! I didn't read closely enough and missed the "if"

    you are correct, then!



  10. #50
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    The first year WNV came around here, we had over 200 horses confirmed dead from it.
    People all over vaccinated like mad, except that the rumor started that broodmares could abort, so some breeding farms didn't want to vaccinate then.
    Our vet told them that he could not confirm that, that there were not any abortions anyone could say it was from the vaccine, that WNV was definitely deadly and more worrysome than aborting.
    Still, some didn't want to take a chance, because all of us know how terrible vaccines are, right?

    The second year, we had some 165 horses confirmed dead from WNV, many in those broodmare farms.

    TX A+M did some studies that confirmed that there was NO risk to broodmares and now all vaccinate ALL their horses and we have very few cases any more, most on still unvaccinated horses, the rare case like my horse, that fell in the 5% that the vaccine doesn't protect.

    We need to realize that we live today in a world of instantaneous information, for good and bad.
    We have access to more information than most know how to handle.
    How many here can read some of those informercial sites and sort what is true science and what is bunk?
    People read something anywhere, even here and they assume if someone wrote it, it has to be accurate, just because it is in black and white.

    So much of what we know today requires a minimum of science to understand and how many people today have that basic education in the sciences?
    For what I see here, very, very few, sadly.
    We don't learn science like a blind person figuring what an elephant is by touch, we have to learn step by step and understand what we are learning.
    A fact here and there won't make people now experts.
    Aknowledging this, we even have today sites available like junkscience.com.

    The cost of the Information Age was, when it started some 50 years ago, already understood to be that so many people are so ignorant in these matters that they don't even know how little they know, have little ability to sort fact from fiction.
    There were several books written about this in the 1970's and much has come to pass as they predicted.
    Guess that we humans are very predictable.

    What I see will eventually maybe save us is if the younger kids will really take an interest in how the world really works and so become wise information costumers, won't fall for so much that passes for true information today.

    We are past the middle ages, where we didn't have enough information to say why something worked or not and you had to take your chances with guesses.
    Science today, while decidedly understood not being perfect, has reduced those guesses tremendously, to where we can assure cause and effect to be consistent to a very high degree over chance.



  11. #51
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    I apologize: I haven't read all the posts.

    Vaccines work partly because of the "herd effect." In other words, every individual who gets vaccinated may develop a different degree of immunity as a result. Some may develop little or no immunity, even after being vaccinated. Others will develop a strong immunity; some will be in between those two extremes (may be able to withstand exposure to some strains of a particular disease for example).

    But, the biggest safeguard is if virtually everyone receives the immunization. Then it makes it much less likely that someone who has not developed sufficient immunity (or someone who for example cannot for medical reasons have the vaccine because of a depressed immune system) will ever be exposed to another person with the disease in question.

    When a significant number of people or animals in the "herd" don't get vaccinated, it's not only those who are not vaccinated who are at risk, but potenially many others within the herd who actually have received the vaccine.
    "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post

    Remember Stephen King's book The Stand... "The World Will Not End in a Bang, but in a Whimper...."
    Just had to say -- that's a T.S. Eliot quote from a poem called The Hollow Men.



  13. #53
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    Titers are used to determine immunity in humans -- not really sure where the statements that titers are not a reliable indicator of immunity comes from.



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalpal View Post

    That poor dog was my sacrificial lamb in discovering that you are much better off, doing your own research and making your own decisions than just listening to one person......I cannot tell you how many small animal vets gave me horrific advice with that poor dog.

    I do my best to keep my current three out of the veterinarian's office with a good diet and lots of fresh air/exercise to boost their immune system.
    I can relate to this. I have had a terrible time finding a small animal vet that's worth a damn, quite frankly.

    4 years ago my JRT's back went out, and we took her to the VSH in Raleigh -- you know the one. Could I ever tell you stories about that place. If my husband hadn't been there I'm pretty sure I would have snapped on at least one occasion -- they would have earned it however, in spades.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordtraktor View Post
    Just had to say -- that's a T.S. Eliot quote from a poem called The Hollow Men.
    I didn't know that! Thanks! Stephen King uses it in that book as well as the poem, The Second Coming by...OMG..menopause and my brain...I can't remember who wrote that poem. Anyway, it goes really well with a doomsday story.

    That book scared the crap out of me. Probably because it's so believable that a pandemic of some superbug will do us in someday...and this one of our own making.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post

    Get your kids, puppies, kittens and foals vaccinated. Use common sense for revaccinating adults of all species.
    Worth reiterating !



  17. #57
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    The Second Coming is by W.B. Yeats.

    http://www.thebeckoning.com/poetry/yeats/yeats5.html
    "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Titers are used to determine immunity in humans -- not really sure where the statements that titers are not a reliable indicator of immunity comes from.
    Yes, to measure some parameters of responses to infection, not to determine how protected the individual may be if infected.
    Only in very rare special situations are they used, as here, as otherwise they are not reliable:

    http://www.nature.com/mt/journal/v10...20041284a.html



  19. #59
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    Wow, I step away from the computer for a while and look what happens!

    Dalpal, I see you are in NC, and you use holistic vets. That's great. I work in NC for a holistic vet. I do not hold any holistic accreditations, but we all work together and I for sure wouldn't/couldn't work there if I didn't believe in its worth. But we still vaccinate. We have regular meetings where we discuss different options (when we decided to stick with the 1 year cat rabies, for instance, rather than go with the 3 year that is more prone to the sarcoma formation). We mostly do 3 year vaccines where they are available. In fact, the AAHA and AVMA both have recommended 3 year protocols. There may be some vets that blanket vaccinate for everything ever year, but that is not the "norm" anymore IMO.

    The bottom line is that every pet is case by case. Every situation is case by case. Vaccination is key to keeping diseases at low levels in the population at large. Vis a vis lepto, there has been a resurgence in disease in the last 5-10 years BECAUSE many people stopped vaccinating for it. Coincidence? No. It has a stable wildlife vector, and will jump via urine to dogs. I recommend it to all my clients, NOT because their dog could get very ill or die (although that is valid and I am a vet, afterall) but because it it very transmissible to humans. I would prefer that people not die over the very very very small risk of a reaction in their pet. Still, some of my clients decline, for $ or other reasons. Fine with me--I don't get smug--I inform them of all the risks and then note as much in the computer....

    And, FWIW, I vaccinate my pets every 3 years (even the cat, she's beastly for vaccines, so for me I have a different risk:benefit ratio for her individual case!).

    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Titers are used to determine immunity in humans -- not really sure where the statements that titers are not a reliable indicator of immunity comes from.
    Please read what has been written. No one said they aren't reliable. I said there have been no studies to determine the cut off of what is protective--the labs use a pretty low titer, IME. So while they may well be protective at high titers (and probably are), there is no proof of that protection. For humans, that research has been done, so there is proof. And pets:humans are applesranges so you can't just assume what works for one works for another with any vaccine, drug, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    I can relate to this. I have had a terrible time finding a small animal vet that's worth a damn, quite frankly.

    4 years ago my JRT's back went out, and we took her to the VSH in Raleigh -- you know the one. Could I ever tell you stories about that place. If my husband hadn't been there I'm pretty sure I would have snapped on at least one occasion -- they would have earned it however, in spades.
    Why am I not surprised? Please never come to me with your pets, because likely I will be one of a long string of competent vets that could not make you happy.

    Oh, and the VSH, they're treating my dog for cancer. I trust them completely. Again, I think this assessment of them says more about you than it does about them...
    From now on, ponyfixer, i'll include foot note references.



  20. #60
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    To PonyFixer:

    What a tool. You don't know anything about my situation and you're passing judgement? Let me rephrase -- what an A$$.

    Why don't you post where you work so I'll be sure not to go to that office.

    I hope your dog recovers from cancer and you're not just prolonging his suffering. I saw a lot of that at VSH.

    Shrug -- I'm sure this post will prompt a lot of harpy screaming. So what. It's usually "professionals" who get very defensive who aren't worth a rat's a$$. So please, let us know who you are so we can avoid you.



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