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  1. #1
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    Default For those who are truly interested in learning about dog food/vaccines

    Here are some wonderful books on the subject..well worth the read, if you are interested. And yes, I'm one of those holistic people who does not believe in overvaccating either. If anyone can think of others to add to the list, please do.

    http://www.amazon.com/Food-Pets-Die-...624808&sr=1-11

    http://www.amazon.com/Consumers-Guid...625061&sr=1-49

    http://www.amazon.com/Shock-System-A...1625195&sr=1-3

    http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Shots-Vac...625195&sr=1-11



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalpal View Post
    Here are some wonderful books on the subject..well worth the read, if you are interested. And yes, I'm one of those holistic people who does not believe in overvaccating either. If anyone can think of others to add to the list, please do.

    http://www.amazon.com/Food-Pets-Die-...624808&sr=1-11

    http://www.amazon.com/Consumers-Guid...625061&sr=1-49

    http://www.amazon.com/Shock-System-A...1625195&sr=1-3

    http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Shots-Vac...625195&sr=1-11
    Dr. Pitcairn's Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats is full of good information, he is one who also believes that overvaccination is one of the biggest causes of illness in domestic pets.



  3. #3
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    No books to add but -- our vet has a practice of vaccinating adult pets, cats and dogs, every 3 years. With the exception of FIV vaccination for cats, I believe. Is that pretty much standard everywhere now?



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    No books to add but -- our vet has a practice of vaccinating adult pets, cats and dogs, every 3 years. With the exception of FIV vaccination for cats, I believe. Is that pretty much standard everywhere now?
    They still tried to push it on me at my vet's office (every year that is)..one recptionist and I got into two heated discussions over this. Finally my vet gave in and said..."You know, Fort Dodge is now showing that vaccines last at least three years, would you forgo the titers and do vaccines if we did them every three years?" Which I replied..No. However, that proved to me that many vets do know that these vaccines are not needed yearly, but still do them anyway.



  5. #5
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    Yes, I think, if I have heard correctly, that some states require rabies every year, some only require it every few years. That should tell you something. My dog had such a bad reaction as a puppy- and I'm told it only gets worse as they get older- that I am really scared as what it could do to her to vaccinate for everything, every year.
    From what research I have done- it seems it takes 3 years or so of vaccinating for them to really build up the resistance, so I'm going to wait until she's 3 and then do titers. For now, I do a homeopathic with the shots. That actually helped her have no reaction, where the first vet I went to gave her a steroid shot and benadryl- which only gave her diarrea and made her very lethargic.
    I was horrified when my friend told me they got her puppy vaccinated for rabies at 3 months. Ack! I waited until mine was 6 mo. But fortunately, hers seems to have that "hybrid vigor" despite being on antibiotics for 2 months for an infected nailbed.
    Last edited by murphyluv; Jan. 10, 2009 at 07:29 PM.



  6. #6
    iamincognito Guest

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    I had to register with an alias for this tidbit:

    The Rabies vaccine is a 3 year vaccine. Many veterinarians will list the vaccine as a 1 year if you are a "problem client" and do not come in for yearly vaccines. Also, if you do not have a current Rabies certificate most state require veterinarians to issue a 1 year certificate rather than a 3 year. I believe this is for licensing purposes more than anything. A way to keep better track of potential "system" abusers.

    The vaccine itself however, is a three year regardless.



  7. #7
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    Thank you so much for this post. I always had a gut feeling against vaccines (both for humans and dogs). I am not of the belief that one should use NO vaccines, but I am against over vaccinating.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "While girls schools are notoriously wild, the true party-hearty girl attends Hollins" ~The Preppy Handbook



  8. #8
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    the rabies vaccine is labeled as 1 vaccine given at 12 weeks of age and to be boostered in 9-12 months. Then it is good for 3 years. It is also a state regulation, for instance, in NH if you had a 1 yr rabies then the next shot is good for 3 years. In massachusetts, if you are 1 day over that 12 month vaccine labeled booster period, the vet has to give a 1 year certificate. I believe in Maine they can't do more than a 2 year cert (but i;m not 100% on that one). We certainly do not give a 1 year vaccine because we feel a person is a "system abuser", we are just trying to keep your dog or cat legal with your state. the state officials take reported bites and potential rabies exposures very seriously. There is no reason to wait until 6 months of age to vaccinate for rabies.

    The distemper vaccine is likely ok for 3 years and in my practice, though off label, we offer it every 3rd year (to fall on different year as rabies) after 4 years or so of age and recommend titers on the off years.

    lyme , lepto and kennel cough just do not have a long duration of immunity and if you have ever seen a dog sick or die of lepto or have been unlucky enough to have to treat one of your own to the tune of 2000-7000 dollars, believe me, you would vaccinate.

    vets are VERY aware that vaccines are not without risk, but we use them as labeled and to the best of our ability within the "standard of care", and truly feel that they are beneficial.

    In my practice , each client and pet is treated as an individual and vaccine protocols are discussed and formulated to best serve that pet and sometimes the owner's comfort level. An owner can make any decision they want, as long as I feel they are properly educated.

    Vets receive many years of excellent education and recommend advice that makes the most sense medically, it is not a conspiracy to take your money...



  9. #9
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    just wondering, idtogo- if you have seen adverse reactions to lepto. seems like there are a considerable amount of dogs that just don't handle it well.



  10. #10
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    There ARE one year and 3 year rabies vaccines. (And as stated above, there are state regulations that guide the use of a 3 year vaccine as a 1 year in certain circumstances--here in NC if you moved from another state and your pets have been vaccinated within the last year, you are fine, but if they are on year 2 or 3 of their vaccine they are required to be revaccinated within 30 days of entering the state...). We use a standard 3 year rabies vaccine on dogs, but use a nonadjuvanted 1 year vaccine for cats. It doesn't last as long, but is safer for cats. We use intranasal distempers for cats and boost every 3 years, and standard injectable 3 year distemper on dogs.

    We do titers as well (a fair number, we are an integrative med practice). One must remember however, that no studies have ever been done to prove that a titer over a certain # is protective--it's just a guess. So your pet may or not be protected with a certain titer. If fewer and fewer people vaccinate their pets, we also loose "herd immunity"--the reason we are seeing lepto re-emerge as a issue.

    As for lepto, the vaccine has changed a lot in the last 10 years. We have it separate from the distemper so people can choose. I am against having people choose based on "risk", since I've seen it in "house dogs", not just "outside" dogs. Lepto can kill you. Not just your dog, but YOU. It is contagious to people, especially the elderly and kids. I think it's worth a potential allergic reaction (I've never had a fatal one, maybe a dozen allergic reactions in 10 years) to protect the pet, the client and their family.

    I think vaccinating isn't black and white. If you can use an approved (tested) 3 year product, I think that's best. Titers can be used to steer or guide decisions but aren't totally there yet in terms of "real knowledge". I don't vaccinate some pets for some things under certain circumstances at all. So I don't think you can make blanket statements other than to consult your vet and have a conversation about what is safe and prudent (risk:benefit) for your 4 legged family.

    My $.02
    From now on, ponyfixer, i'll include foot note references.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mammadoc View Post
    just wondering, idtogo- if you have seen adverse reactions to lepto. seems like there are a considerable amount of dogs that just don't handle it well.
    I will never give that vaccine.......the main reason being...it still doesn't protect your dog from ALL the Lepto strains and you have put your dog at risk by giving it.

    On another message board, another girl's dog got very sick. I had been reading up on Lepto as my vet was really encouraging me to give it to my dogs.

    Everything symptom she described...screamed LEPTO. I asked her if the dog had been tested......she felt sure it couldn't be because the dog had been vaccinated (no one had told her that the vaccine only covers a few strains)...the vet also poo poo'd it...saying no way..there wasn't any blood in the dog's urine. After about three days, she demanded a Lepto titer and sure enough, the dog tested positive. The poor girl wen through hell, almost lost her dog, and it costed her THOUSANDS trying to save the dog. Of course, if she had told the vet that the dog hadn't been vaccinated for Lepto, they might have been quicker to test for that disease.

    No thank you......there just isn't enough guarantee with that vaccine to warrant me taking a chance with it.



  12. #12
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    I respect your choice/decision.

    However, there is a newer vaccine for Lepto out that has the original 2 serovars, plus the 2 new most frequently seen serovars. It is made out of subunits of the bacteria and is therefore also less reactive (less adverse reactions).

    I do really think the whole "lepto reactions" thing was more in the past, and not as big a deal as made to be. Dogs have died from vaccines. People have died from vaccines, too. But it isn't the norm, and the benefit to the populace is real.

    The biggest problem I get is from breeders, some for whom I would use the term loosely, who sell a puppy with directions NEVER to give lepto. The puppy will die! Panic, mayhem, the world will end. And then they come to see us and think we're the antichrist for recommending it. We make people sign a waiver that says the vaccine's been recommended, the disease is zoonotic, and is potentially fatal to the pet. Cause sure as shit if one of their pets gets it--it will be our fault for not REALLY explaining how serious it could be, etc. etc.
    From now on, ponyfixer, i'll include foot note references.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pony Fixer View Post
    I respect your choice/decision.

    However, there is a newer vaccine for Lepto out that has the original 2 serovars, plus the 2 new most frequently seen serovars. It is made out of subunits of the bacteria and is therefore also less reactive (less adverse reactions).

    I do really think the whole "lepto reactions" thing was more in the past, and not as big a deal as made to be. Dogs have died from vaccines. People have died from vaccines, too. But it isn't the norm, and the benefit to the populace is real.

    The biggest problem I get is from breeders, some for whom I would use the term loosely, who sell a puppy with directions NEVER to give lepto. The puppy will die! Panic, mayhem, the world will end. And then they come to see us and think we're the antichrist for recommending it. We make people sign a waiver that says the vaccine's been recommended, the disease is zoonotic, and is potentially fatal to the pet. Cause sure as shit if one of their pets gets it--it will be our fault for not REALLY explaining how serious it could be, etc. etc.
    Yes, but then again, I just gave you an example of why I think the vaccine is basically worthless....and this just happened last summer.

    If the 4 way just came out, how many dogs has it been given to, do we really know it won't cause new reactions in the the dog? I always think back to the Heartworm Prevention shot a few years back (and now it's back on the market)....it was all about convience.....here was a lady on TV with a pack of dogs and she pulls out her drawer to only realize she doesn't know when she gave the last heartworm pill......so she goes to the vet and gets them the vaccine....last scene is her and the many dogs running carefree down a beach. Suddenly that commercial disappeared...turns out, the shot was killing too many dogs and it was pulled.

    A great tip that I once got and it is my motive.....You'd better be sure because once you put it into your dog, you cannot take it back out.

    I had a dog who died in 2003, I followed every vet protocal....whatever they told me, I did it....that dog was so sickly, I bet I spent over 25,000.00 on his beautiful sweet soul in the 5 years that I owned him. I had one senior veterinarian who gave him a shot of Reglan for stomach ache.....He went into shock, when I took him back to the clinic (I had no idea what was going on), she said he was drunk and would sleep it off...and when I asked..Is it life threatening, she said.."NO".....3000.00 later and a week at NC State ICU, he finally managed to recover....he was never quite the same.

    That poor dog was my sacrificial lamb in discovering that you are much better off, doing your own research and making your own decisions than just listening to one person......I cannot tell you how many small animal vets gave me horrific advice with that poor dog.

    I do my best to keep my current three out of the veterinarian's office with a good diet and lots of fresh air/exercise to boost their immune system.

    I wish Charles Loop (Holisitic DVM) was closer to me because I would switch over to him in a heartbeat, but I just don't have time to drive to Pittsboro right now.

    There is treatment for Lepto IF caught early....and as I pointed out in the above post....this owner would have probaby gotten help quicker if she had NOT given her dog the vaccine, they probably would have searched there first....and the dog WAS vaccinated and still had to be treated for the disease....so why give it in the first place?????

    Any vaccine can cause a bad reaction....the ONLY thing mine get are the three years Rabies....I will not give them anything else. Titers, yes...vaccines absolutely not.

    I'm not a favorite with the vet techs/receptionists at my clinic because I won't blindly say.."Okay"....I will usually say..No thank you.....I have one who gets absolutely irrate with me. Instead of just assuming I'm a bad owner who just doesn't want to spend money.....perhaps, she should realize that I've spent a great deal of time reading and making my own decisions for my dogs and cats without just blindly following one person's opinion.

    I don't think there is anything wrong with a breeder explaining the risks of vaccines with a potential new owner...I know some "REPUTABLE" breeders who have the same stand as I do. The veterinarians do not always take time to tell you the pros AND THE CONS of giving these vaccines. The owner with the dog who contracted Lepto wasn't told.....This doesn't protect your dog from every strain......she vaccinated her dog and thought her dog was at that point protected.....no one told her, except two people on an internet message board....and it turns out the two of us who informed her, were the two that were correct.

    Every owner should do their research and make their own decisions as to what they are comfortable with.....no one at at a veterinarian's office (I'm speaking of my own experiences) should make one feel like a bad owner because they aren't jumping up and down for lots of drugs and needles for their pet. I'm also NOT a big fan of NSAIDS...would never, ever use those things long term again....EVER.

    There was a vet's office here in Raleigh that is right up the street from me, I left them a few years back (for many reasons....one being a veterinarian diagonsing my puppy with nose mites when he had a cold....correctly diagnosed by another vet/another practice...nothing like spending 150.00 for nothing)...the tech also got very angry with me for passing on Lepto.....she gave me the waiver to sign, which I happily did for her.....she thought I was the worst person ever....basically threw the waiver at me with the attitude of "I TOLD YOU SO".

    Off my soapbox.......I just highly recommend that everyone research all the drugs/vaccines and decide if they are for you....go in with questions for your veterinarian and do not be afraid to talk to them and make sure that you are okay with their thoughts.



  14. #14
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    Thank you, Idtogo and Pony Fixer, real information is so scarce on forums and sorely needed, as you can see.

    There seem to be many laymen out there that, without a veterinary or any other kind of science degree, consider themselves more informed than the ones that spent years learning how things really work.

    Titers have not been shown to work when we want to depend on them to tell us if someone would be protected if exposed.
    When they are, then we can say it is so, but we can't yet.

    I would say that it will take another real scare, like when Parvo first started in the early 1970's and then all those that didn't want to vaccinate, yes, there were such people already then, seeing whole kennels wiped out, then decided that vaccines after all did do some good, even if they are not perfect.

    I expect most people that don't want their dogs vaccinated regularly are just lucky that they live in a world where so many are and so their animals are somewhat protected.
    They forget the others they put at risk with their behavior.

    I lost a properly vaccinated horse to WNV, it is only 95% effective.
    Guess what, I still keep all my other horses properly vaccinated, you bet.
    My little dog had a very bad reaction to the first series of puppy shots, so her vet started her on a different than regular program.
    To go without vaccines, with the many dogs I have seen dying from distemper, parvo and lepto and wild life around here with rabies, that come right up to my yard fence, it would be foolish not to vaccinate her, if at all possible.
    Guess what, the protocol worked and now, as an adult, she does fine with regular vaccination protocols, doesn't has a reaction any more.
    So, you see, there are other than terrible stories out there, sometimes, veterinarians do know what they are doing.

    All the stories of a vet missing a diagnosis or a vaccine killing a dog, are just that, stories, that sad as it is for the ones involved, should not detract from the millions of dogs that don't get sick and are protected with vaccines and the many dogs veterinarians help and yes, even save.

    We as laymen can learn all we want, but in the end, I would listen to my vet when it comes to what my dog needs in my area and why.
    Vets are the ones that are seeing and treating the local dog population and really, do know best.
    Our vet loves for the clients to be involved and informed.
    Sometimes I bring something I read and he thanks me and goes to check more on it.
    Vets are not infallible and all knowing gods, but they sure know more than any of us and have a way to understand what we question in ways we don't and put it in perspective.

    If you really have one of those very few incompetent veterinarians out there, just as there are incompetents in all in life, then change vets, because your problems there is larger than you being smarter than your vet, it is truly dangerous to your animals.

    Some people may feel very good putting one over their vet, but in the end, it is their animals that will suffer if they don't let the vet do what they feel is necessary in the care of their animals.



  15. #15
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    Thanks, Bluey. It's not really a thread for those "interested in learning" unless both sides of the argument are present. A personal bad experience, while regrettable, shouldn't turn into a crusade at the expense of heaps and piles of good experiences and data.

    Having indeed lost almost our whole breeding program of Siberians when parvovirus first made the rounds, I've always been rather eager to get my dogs vaccinated. Call that a "personal bad experience". I don't believe my views should be swallowed whole by anyone, but if one IS interested, one should study BOTH sides of the argument and make up one's own mind.
    Click here before you buy.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Thanks, Bluey. It's not really a thread for those "interested in learning" unless both sides of the argument are present. A personal bad experience, while regrettable, shouldn't turn into a crusade at the expense of heaps and piles of good experiences and data.

    Having indeed lost almost our whole breeding program of Siberians when parvovirus first made the rounds, I've always been rather eager to get my dogs vaccinated. Call that a "personal bad experience". I don't believe my views should be swallowed whole by anyone, but if one IS interested, one should study BOTH sides of the argument and make up one's own mind.
    That's fine present both sides....that's why this is an OPEN forum. I'm presenting MY side and why I feel the way that I do....if you feel differently, that's your right.....however...I'm not on a crusade....no one should read an internet thread and jump on any bandwagon...the point is......DO RESEARCH and make your OWN decision. I think I said that SEVERAL times in my last post.

    There are "heaps and piles" of good data that support both sides....it's up to each individual to make their OWN choice.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalpal View Post
    That's fine present both sides....that's why this is an OPEN forum. I'm presenting MY side and why I feel the way that I do....if you feel differently, that's your right.....however...I'm not on a crusade....no one should read an internet thread and jump on any bandwagon...the point is......DO RESEARCH and make your OWN decision. I think I said that SEVERAL times in my last post.

    There are "heaps and piles" of good data that support both sides....it's up to each individual to make their OWN choice.
    Well stated.

    Thanks, Deltawave, that virulent Parvo strain that became so deadly sure scared everyone in dogs.
    Too bad that it hit your dogs so hard.
    For a little, we quit dog classes and shows, until it was somewhat under control.
    Our friend with the border collie herding kennel also lost some top dogs to that.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Titers have not been shown to work when we want to depend on them to tell us if someone would be protected if exposed.
    When they are, then we can say it is so, but we can't yet.
    It was my understanding that titers measure virus antibodies and don't tell us if someone would be "protected if exposed." Some people and vets use a high antibody count to conclude that the animal would be protected, but this isn't necessarily true. Of course, this is the same with a vaccine (take your WNV example)...even with the vaccine (and you'd probably get a high antibody count if you did a titer after giving the vaccine), you may not be protected. Ultimately, it is the animal's owner who makes the decision.

    Can someone please elaborate on how unvaccinated animals/people put the whole population at risk? If you yourself are vaccinated, then why should it matter if 50% of the population is not? Is it because the disease could come back, but in a new strain that is no longer covered by the vaccine? Couldn't that happen even with a 100% vaccination protocol?



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by elctrnc View Post
    Can someone please elaborate on how unvaccinated animals/people put the whole population at risk? If you yourself are vaccinated, then why should it matter if 50% of the population is not? Is it because the disease could come back, but in a new strain that is no longer covered by the vaccine? Couldn't that happen even with a 100% vaccination protocol?
    Vaccines sometimes fail.

    The ones most at risk, of course, are the unvaccinated individuals. If a large portion of 50% of the population gets sick, I'd say that's a problem for someone.
    Last edited by grayarabpony; Jan. 14, 2009 at 04:07 PM.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by elctrnc View Post
    It was my understanding that titers measure virus antibodies and don't tell us if someone would be "protected if exposed." Some people and vets use a high antibody count to conclude that the animal would be protected, but this isn't necessarily true. Of course, this is the same with a vaccine (take your WNV example)...even with the vaccine (and you'd probably get a high antibody count if you did a titer after giving the vaccine), you may not be protected. Ultimately, it is the animal's owner who makes the decision.

    Can someone please elaborate on how unvaccinated animals/people put the whole population at risk? If you yourself are vaccinated, then why should it matter if 50% of the population is not? Is it because the disease could come back, but in a new strain that is no longer covered by the vaccine? Couldn't that happen even with a 100% vaccination protocol?
    Vaccines are really not 100% because sometimes the individual's immune system they are given to was not competent to mount the right kind of reaction to the vaccine.
    That reaction consists of several steps and diverse cell types, it is not just a simple single one of cause and effect.

    So, we hope most vaccinated individuals are protected, but we can't know who the few are that are not.

    As for what titers mean, all they tell us is that the immune system was exposed to that organism and mounted a defense and now x number of certain fighting cells are still running around.
    There has not been any direct correlation with titer numbers and how protected that individual may be when reexposed.
    Sometimes they are, others not.
    Immunology science is rather young and much is still to be discovered.

    Vaccine companies measure titers when testing vaccines, but are aware that they are only one of several possible markers, not a definitive one of the efficacy of the vaccine when exposed to the organism.

    As for those that don't vaccinate, if you were around when polio was still running rampant, you would not have to ask why someone not vaccinating puts the rest at risk, much more risk than the rare reaction to a vaccine.
    I went to school with polio handicapped kids, some in crutches and braces and those were the lucky ones.

    As someone already mentioned, herd immunity thru vaccines is why people are so much healthier and live longer today in many parts of the world, as anyone looking at third world countries can see for themselves.

    Vaccines are definitely not perfect or without risk, but the risks of NOT vaccinating, of the diseases themselves, are much greater.
    Vaccines are not right for everyone or every place.
    We are still learning much about them, but in my opinion, you may disagree, overvaccinating is a lesser sin than under vaccinating and diseases to flourish as they once were.



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