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  1. #1
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    Default Black bred to black = bright chestnut???

    Hi everyone- we have a black mare (tested and is true black) who we bred to a black stallion (His Highness) and the resulting filly is bright chestnut, even has 3 high whites and a blaze and a belly spot! I had always read that black to black can only produce black or liver chestnut. I know that liver can be various shades, but this light? I've always wanted a liver chestnut- is there any chance she could go darker as she gets older? (She is almost 3 now...)Thanks in advance.*



  2. #2
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    I love color genetics!

    There is no guarantee of liver chestnut from that cross. Only a guarantee of not getting a bay. And she's not likely to get any darker...
    Not all who wander are lost.

    Ralando II



  3. #3
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    When you mean the mare's tested and 'true black' do you mean she tested negative for red factor (referred to as 'e/E' or Extension) or do you mean that she tested negative for Agouti, the gene that turns a black horse bay? (Fwiw, the filly is negative for agouti, since she has two black, not bay, parents)

    Black to black can very easily produce a chestnut (of any shade, not just liver); chestnut to chestnut will never produce a black horse though. Chestnut is a recessive color, so a horse must inherit two copies of it (ee). Black is dominant, so the horse only needs one copy (Ee) to look black to the eye. His Highness is heterozygous for Black (eE) and has chestnut offspring to show for it. It appears that your mare is as well! It is possible that whatever lab tested her screwed up. There is no other way for your filly to have come out chestnut otherwise

    Liver chestnut coloration is likely attributable to the presence of the 'sooty' factor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sooty_(gene) I very strongly doubt she'll darken.
    Last edited by sniplover; Jan. 6, 2009 at 11:24 PM. Reason: add info



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxesport View Post
    Hi everyone- we have a black mare (tested and is true black) who we bred to a black stallion (His Highness) and the resulting filly is bright chestnut, even has 3 high whites and a blaze and a belly spot! I had always read that black to black can only produce black or liver chestnut. I know that liver can be various shades, but this light? I've always wanted a liver chestnut- is there any chance she could go darker as she gets older? (She is almost 3 now...)Thanks in advance.*
    Don't ya hate when that happens <g>?

    No, as other posters have noted, since chestnut is recessive it can 'hide' for generations before suddenly popping out. Chances are just you filly is "just" a chestnut, as most of the livers I've seen were pretty dark almost from the get-go.

    The only way to be sure you are NOT going to get a chestnut if for one of the parents to be homozygous for black/black points -- which still means you can get a bay if somebody has the agouti gene.



  5. #5
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    it is not that chestnut can hide, but it is that there are more than one genes detecting the color... as another poster said. If a horse has been tested nothing can hide it just depends on what (which genes) the horse is tested. Just as the above poster wrote.
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
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  6. #6
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    Both parents are heterozygous black. When breeding two heterozygous black horses you have the chance for:

    25% chestnut/sorrel (whatever you prefer to call it) in any "shade" depending on what sort of "red" genes the parents have
    50% heterozygous black
    25% homozygous black

    At 3 years of age she is not going to darken up. What you see is what you get.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexandra View Post
    it is not that chestnut can hide, but it is that there are more than one genes detecting the color... as another poster said. If a horse has been tested nothing can hide it just depends on what (which genes) the horse is tested. Just as the above poster wrote.
    When I said "hide" I meant that because it is recessive it can go for many generations without "presenting". You know, it's just been fairly recently that we've been doing all this color testing.....



  8. #8
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    It's very easy, both parents were Ee which is heterozygous black. This breeding results in
    25% EE - homozygous black (cannot produce chestnut)
    25% ee - Chestnut
    50% Ee - heterozygous black

    It is the same when people are amazed that two heterozygous greys can have a solid non grey foal. This is the 25% that can happen.
    Gwendolyn
    http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
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  9. #9
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    Sorry, just saw JetdecksComet has already said that too.
    Gwendolyn
    http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
    Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxesport View Post
    Hi everyone- we have a black mare (tested and is true black) who we bred to a black stallion (His Highness) and the resulting filly is bright chestnut, even has 3 high whites and a blaze and a belly spot! I had always read that black to black can only produce black or liver chestnut. I know that liver can be various shades, but this light? I've always wanted a liver chestnut- is there any chance she could go darker as she gets older? (She is almost 3 now...)Thanks in advance.*
    HH carries the gene for chestnut. A lot of his foals look like Donnerhall. Also Feiner Stern carries the same gene, and that's his dam side. Lots of Chestnut in that pedigree! My 03 colt is a deep red chestnut, three HIGH whites and a big blaze out of a BLACK mare and by Feiner Stern. Furiosio II spreads a lot of chesnut babies around. STRONG genes! Furiosio II has all of the markings of your filly, even the belly spot!



  11. #11
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    [QUOTE=Kyzteke;3784194]Don't ya hate when that happens <g>?

    Chances are just you filly is "just" a chestnut, as most of the livers I've seen were pretty dark almost from the get-go.

    QUOTE]

    We had a pony colt that was born a bright flame chestnut. He shed out to a dark liver chestnut a few months later, and his mane & tail grew in silvery from that point. Of course, he shed the red coat in patches, with the beautiful dark coat showing through, just in time for his first show!

    (yes I could have clipped him but I didn't have time. The judge just laughed and said he had one that looked like that at home)
    ~ A true friend knows all there is to know about you and still likes you. -E. Hubbard



  12. #12
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    Wow. Such good information. I have a Donnerhall mare who is gray. We bred her to my Blue Who, who has about 90% grays born. This filly is liver chestnut and is 9 months old. I see now sign of her changing color. I could not see how that was possible until reading this thread. It would be thrilling to have her stay this color.
    Sandy
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    hunter/jumper ponies



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarbrook View Post
    Wow. Such good information. I have a Donnerhall mare who is gray. We bred her to my Blue Who, who has about 90% grays born. This filly is liver chestnut and is 9 months old. I see now sign of her changing color. I could not see how that was possible until reading this thread. It would be thrilling to have her stay this color.
    That is correct. Breeding a grey to any other color will give you a 50% chance of getting a grey. Breeding a grey to a grey will give you a 75% chance of getting a grey. If you breed to a homozygous grey, then there is a 100% chance of the foal turning grey.

    The 90% grey average that your stallion has is actually just a crap shoot. Because he is only heterozygous for the grey gene, there is only a 50% chance he will pass it on to his offspring. It's just by chance that 90% of them have happened to turn grey as the grey gene is no more dominant over any other color. That being said, the grey gene is called a Dominant gene, but all that refers to is that one parent must be grey in order for a foal to be grey...you cannot breed a non-grey to a non-grey and get grey! The term dominant gene actually has nothing to do with it being a more dominant color, so to speak, over any other color.

    Here is a really great online Foal Color Calculator:
    www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp
    www.DaventryEquestrian.com
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  14. #14
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    I just wanted to say I feel your pain- I bred my black mare to a black stallion and got a bright chestnut filly with a flaxen mane and tail and lots of white.

    I was so shocked when little red legs came out of my mare, I was sure it would be black. I knew the stallion had produced chestnuts, but I couldn't find anything in my mare's pedigree but blacks and bays back 4 generations.

    Oh well, I love my little red-head.



  15. #15
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    Thanks for all the great responses- all very interesting! I guess what I had read is quite dated now. We have been breeding for over 20 years, had black stallions and never produced anything but a black out of a black mare. The dam of this filly is by Weltmeyer so I guess that's where our filly got her color from. The foal the following year by De Luxe was a black. Have to say though- we were certainly amazed to see those chestnut legs appear!



  16. #16
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    On my response I see it looks like I said that i now see signs...... It should read it looks like i see NO signs. I think everyone figured that out.
    Sandy
    www.sugarbrook.com
    hunter/jumper ponies



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxesport View Post
    Thanks for all the great responses- all very interesting! I guess what I had read is quite dated now. We have been breeding for over 20 years, had black stallions and never produced anything but a black out of a black mare. The dam of this filly is by Weltmeyer so I guess that's where our filly got her color from. The foal the following year by De Luxe was a black. Have to say though- we were certainly amazed to see those chestnut legs appear!
    Some of those black horses could have been homozygous for black... that would explain why you never got a red foal. Or you could have just had incredible "luck" with the black. lol

    Just to clarify... the filly didn't get her color from her dam... she got it from both the dam and sire. Red is recessive and can only show up when both parents pass it on. If one had passed a black gene, and the other a red gene, she would be heterozygous black... if both had passed black genes, she would be homozygous for black. So, due to this filly's birth you now know that both the mare and the stallion are heterozyous black. Meaning that they carry both a red gene and a black gene.



  18. #18
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    Don't want to hijack here, but does anyone have any predictions on black stallion/bay mare when both have produced chestnuts in the past?



  19. #19
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    Without knowing if the mare is homozygous for agouti (aka has two copies of the 'bay' modifier; AA) or heterozygous (Aa) your general genetic-crap shoot stats are:
    56.25% - Bay
    25.00% - Chestnut
    18.75% - Black

    If she's homozygous for agouti (AA), you'll get 75% bay and 25% chestnut.

    If she's produced black foals before, then she's heterozygous for agouti (Aa) and will produce;
    46.88% - Black
    46.88% - Bay
    6.25% -Chestnut

    You can drop $25 on a color genetics test and get the answer to her agouti status if you want.



  20. #20
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    We had a purebred Arabian mare who was a chestnut from two blacks. She, when bred to another black Arabian, produced a flaxen chestnut. We breed these mares to our homozygous black stallion and ALWAYS get black.



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