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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2007
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    Default WWYD: Joint Supps... UPDATE Post 18

    So, I'm thinking about (if these stifle injections do absolutely nothing to help) taking Gus off his joint supps... or at least the SmartFlex Senior. He's currently on 1/2 dose daily plus additional MSM. Which means he's getting:

    Glucosamine HCL: 3500 mg
    Chondroitin:250 mg
    MSM: 6000 mg plus an additional 5000 mg from SmartMSM pellets, for a total of 11,000 mg

    There's other stuff in there, but that's the jist of it.

    Does anyone just feed MSM? Or plain, ol' glucosamine plus MSM? I just don't think the Smartflex is helping at all. He's been on a joint supplement (everything from Matrix 4 by UVE, to TriSport by Horsetech [which was awesome, but spendy] to most recently Smartflex Senior, supplemented with Animed's Glucosamine Pure) since '00, when he first injured his left stifle. Since then, things have gotten progressively worse until this last year. Now things are down right crappy. These stifle injections are my last attempt to get part of my old Gus back. If things don't work, well now I'll have two lovely pasture fluffs.

    Just wondering what people do. When you draw the line. I've talked about this before, but just curious. More curious to get opinions from people who have horses with chronic lameness issues...

    Background for those who need it: Gus has a weak left stifle already but torn the CCL in the right this spring. Rehabbing (with a lot of setbacks) since then. Getting another set of stifle injections on Thursday. Gringo, the other pasture fluff, has a fractured coffin bone (extensor process). He, too, has been on joint supps since diagnosis, back in 2007. No significiant change with his comfort level since being on the supps... even with corrective shoeing. He's okay but still, most definitely, lame.
    Last edited by appychik; Jan. 25, 2009 at 01:36 PM.
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 5, 2004
    Location
    Canada
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    1,108

    Default

    Use Recovery EQ if you haven't tried it already. My horse is on 10,000mg of pure gluco and 10,000mg MSM per day but the 1 scoop of Recovery gave him a good 50% more mobility then than he has now.

    Unfortunately for my guy I just can't afford to keep him on the Recovery but I'm trying other options (Legend injections, chiro, etc) but it's really a great product.
    A quick tutorial on interval training: Conditioning your horse for eventing



  3. #3
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    Nov. 13, 2008
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    Default

    I have been going through my own evaluation of my horse's joint supplements lately and have recently read in multiple instances that horses may need at least 10,000 mg of glucosamine to have an effective dose for their body weight, based on studies in humans and other animals - not sure if you've tried that level of supplement yet. Also, I've been reading that MSM has other benefits to horses besides combatting inflammation, which may be a consideration for you.

    ETA: You may also want to consider monthly IM Adequan injections to support the direct stifle injections. I have decided to do this for my beasty (for hocks, post IA injections) since I get way more bang for the buck with a monthly Adequan shot than with daily oral supplements alone.

    A friend has her horse's coffin joint injected (front, one or both I forget) and it has made a HUGE difference for him.
    Last edited by ZiggyStardust; Jan. 7, 2009 at 01:18 AM. Reason: add Adequan



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2007
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    Default

    I've seriously thought about Recovery EQ. Never have used it. Gus has been on 10,000mgs of glucosamine and MSM until just recently (as in until December) with no significant improvements. I've tried Adequan in the past, absolutely no help, whatsoever. Legend, however, did help prolong the time between injections. [FWIW, Gringo's also had his coffin bone injected. He was dead lame for about two days post injection, then made a 180-degree turnaround and was the soundest he'd been in months. Lasted, unfortunately, for just 2 weeks or so. He's been back to his usual 1-1.5 degree lameness since.]

    I suppose I'll read up more on Recovery EQ. And prehaps try it for a month. Won't hurt anything but my budget, right .
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 10, 2008
    Location
    Apex, NC
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    Default

    I took in a 24 year old ex show jumper this spring, she was off at the trot all the time on Smartflex Senior. When it came time to reorder, and I saw the cost, I asked my vet. He put her on MSM and Aspirin. She is now back in light work and is sound. Of course, she has no history of ulcers.



  6. #6
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    Jun. 11, 2007
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Im Natives Last View Post
    I took in a 24 year old ex show jumper this spring, she was off at the trot all the time on Smartflex Senior. When it came time to reorder, and I saw the cost, I asked my vet. He put her on MSM and Aspirin. She is now back in light work and is sound. Of course, she has no history of ulcers.
    Well, Gus has a history (recent) of stomach "issues"...

    How much MSM is your mare on? 10,000 mgs? More? Less? Just curious.
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  7. #7
    Join Date
    May. 27, 2008
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    Default

    I recently went to straight MSM. My horse has ulcer issues, and I read where glucosamine is not good for ulcers. I'll see how this goes and post back. This horse has had injuries in the past, and is now on monthly chiro work too. MSM is certainly cost effective too.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov. 16, 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
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    470

    Default

    Mine has stifle and back issues and was just treated 3 mos for Lyme.
    He also had 3/4 of his large colon removed three years ago and probably has ulcers.
    So I minimize joint supps.
    He gets monthly Adequan.
    Just switched to Hyalun every other day. That really seems to help (see Janet's post from a couple years ago on Hyalun). I like it because it's supposed to be absorbed in the mouth.
    I've been giving him Glucasomine XL every other day. But thinking of switching that to Flex Free (just chondroitin), though I like the Yucca in the Gluc XL.
    Will give him MSM off and on, though not sure he tolerates it well.
    Have been giving him SmartDigest for a couple weeks, and that really seems to help his tummy.
    He also gets Accel Lifetime.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 29, 2007
    Location
    IL
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    Default

    FWIW, I recently attended a seminar with a respected university vet--topic was treating arthritis in horses.

    He referenced research that showed, essentially, that most (if not all) oral equine glucosamine supplements have way too small an amount of glucosamine to be even marginally effective. Apparently there isn't even any solid research that shows oral glucosamine is well-absorbed by the horse's body.

    After that I took my mare off of CortaFlex and am now giving injectable Acetyl-D-Glucosamine. We just finished the loading dose a week or two ago and I am really starting to see improvement (hock arthritis).



  10. #10
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    Jun. 11, 2007
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    Default

    Ya' know? I think I'm gonna send my vet another email about injectable glucosamine. For $60, I can get 10 doses (or ten weeks) of glucosamine for my horse. I know he'll just kill me, being injected weekly, but if it works and is more likely to work, it's worth it. Right? And, it's cheaper then the Smartpak Senior!

    Aghh. Off to shoot the vet another email (God, I swear she hates me!).
    Last edited by appychik; Jan. 7, 2009 at 03:32 PM.
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  11. #11
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    Jan. 31, 2007
    Location
    Iowa
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    Default

    Does your horse have any metabolic issues? If you're looking at EPSM or mild chronic laminitis then glucosamine is not something you want to give them in ANY dose. Try pure HA (like Hyalun, HylaMotion, etc.) and MSM. No yucca, either.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2003
    Location
    Wake Forest, NC
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    613

    Default MSM

    I have found that straight MSM is as effective for my arthritic gelding as glucosmine and the injectibles, at a fraction of the cost.



  13. #13
    mr. pony Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Druid Acres View Post
    Does your horse have any metabolic issues? If you're looking at EPSM or mild chronic laminitis then glucosamine is not something you want to give them in ANY dose. Try pure HA (like Hyalun, HylaMotion, etc.) and MSM. No yucca, either.
    not to hijack... just interested to know more about the connection between glucosamine (& yucca) and metabolic issues?



  14. #14
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    Jan. 31, 2007
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    Iowa
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. pony View Post
    not to hijack... just interested to know more about the connection between glucosamine (& yucca) and metabolic issues?
    If you join the Yahoo Cushings group, Dr. Kellon advises against glucosamine and yucca for IR and Cushings horses. On Rural Heritage, Dr. Valentine is less adamant but still urges caution for glucosamine use in EPSM horses. I think most of this is extrapolated from human medicine - diabetic people are told not use glucosamine as it seems to interfere with normal insulin metabolism.



  15. #15
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    Apr. 16, 2005
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    Default

    Okay, most people know my guys story and his injury so I won't go into all the details again but will do a quick timeline:

    Dec 05: Bought him and put him on an "all in one" (Gluc, Chon, MSM and HA) joint supplement and hoof supplement (crappy feet).
    Mar 06: Injured (big huge long story... did lots of diagnostic and treatment stuff... yada yada yada)
    Feb 07: Still NQR so moved to another barn, changed farriers, added MT.
    Mar 07 - Feb 08: Was getting better slowly. Chiro and MT every 4 weeks, light to medium work as he tolerated. Still on "all in one" joint and hoof. Did try Recovery EQ for a few months.
    Feb 08: Started Legend shots as I wanted to hold off on doing injections. Did the loading dose first (1x week for 3 weeks, then monthly).
    Mar 08: Already notice improvement so took him off the "all in one" and substituted for MSM only and BL Pellets for the Yucca/DC. Added a new hoof supplement that has MSM in it too.

    Today: We have been able to push out his Chiro and MT appts (Chiro every 12 weeks, MT every 6-8 weeks). Same w/ the Legend shots (around every 10-12 weeks). Have dropped the BL Pellets so straight MSM and Hoof supplement only (which BTW, is a total of 15,000mg of MSM: 10,000mg SmartMSM and then another 5,000mg in the hoof supplement ~ Grand Meadows Grand Hoof pellets).

    And he's sound as a tick. He has a bad day here and there on occasion. But those are pretty few and far between. He doesn't do as well in the cold weather, but so far, is doing okay.

    The key thing was... I was able to break the cycle. Once he felt a little bit more comfortable (after the loading dose of Legend), I was able to work him a little bit more. It's been a very slow process (almost a year now). I slowly started adding new things (terrain/hill work, XC schoolings, etc. etc.) and see how he would handle it. And each thing has made him stronger and stronger. He just needed to break out of the cycle.

    The new farrier has done wonders as his previous one was crappy and a few barn management changes have made a difference for him too.

    So now he can "maintain" himself much better w/o as much outside help as before. But he is more fit too.... LOL So that means more work for me!!!!

    I've had him 3 years this past X-mas... and we never knew after the injury, if he'd ever be completely sound again. And look at us now!

    I've heard that Glu/Chon is good for more of a preventative... where MSM/HA is better for when issues arise.
    Last edited by LSM1212; Jan. 8, 2009 at 01:45 PM.



  16. #16
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    Jun. 4, 2006
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    Default

    I heard that IRAP may work well on stiffles.



  17. #17
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    Thanks LSM1212. I'm waiting to hear back again from the vet post-injections (stifle) to see how things look and what she thinks about the other injections. I am going to up the MSM, for sure.

    As far as IRAP goes, it was an option, but I don't have that kind of money. He's no longer insured (over the age anyways) and there isn't a guarantee that the IRAP will work. I just don't have that to waste. Wish I did, cause I would have done IRAP on both horses months/years ago.
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  18. #18
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    Default

    Little update.

    Started Gus on the Recovery Eq last week. Haven't been out to the barn since, so unsure of his progress, if any. Will note that today when I get out there after work.

    He's on 2 scoops a day for a month. My budget is screaming... but, if it'll help then I'll do it. I do plan on dropping back to 1 scoop daily within thirty days.

    Talked to my vet about the injectable glucosamine. She's nevered used it nor has she used Recovery Eq. Her technician/receptionist has used both, together on one horse and just the injections on the other. She noticed pretty remarkable improvement in the one that was on both. So, we'll see. Taking things one day at a time and going from there.

    So, right now Gus is on Recovery Eq (double strength per the instructions) plus an additional 5000mg of MSM... that equals 25,000mgs of MSM. Perhaps a bit overkill but he was already on 5000mg of MSM in his Smartpak. Other then that, he's also on his 56.7mg of Previcox daily too. I did notice last week (after being back on Previcox) that he seemed a bit less stiff... hoping the Recovery Eq makes things even better. He's otherwise on no other joint supplements.

    Those that have used Recovery Eq with success... did you do the double dose at the beginning and then taper back to the normal dosage? Did you even do the "loading dose"? Did your horse improve to what they were prior to the injury/lameness?

    Thanks!
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



  19. #19
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    Dec. 16, 2003
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    Default HA is the key ingredient

    I have found with my large collection of older horses, all working at various levels.
    HA is the key ingredient. look to see who gives you the most HA for your money and go with that one.

    I have also had good results from KeraFlex, PM me is you want to get some to try.
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
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  20. #20
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Melyni View Post
    I have found with my large collection of older horses, all working at various levels.
    HA is the key ingredient. look to see who gives you the most HA for your money and go with that one.

    I have also had good results from KeraFlex, PM me is you want to get some to try.
    MW
    Thanks. I've got to use up the Recovery Eq first. If still no improvement I may get a hold of you about that KeraFlex. Sounds like a good product to try.
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos



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