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  1. #61
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    bayhawk- please explain, I don't understand?



  2. #62
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    He's commenting on the amount of linebreeding in your foal. The pedigree is here (hope I've got the right mare) and by using Diarado you're concentrating lines that are already strongly represented in your mare, some of which are known for not doubling up successfully. Since she is already so linebred you may find you get even better foals if you use outcross stallions on her, such as Diamant de Semilly if he's still available, and hope that hybrid vigour kicks in as it did with Diarado.

    http://sporthorsedata.com/dbtestmati...damid=10559531

    Here would be the pedigree of a foal from your mare if you used Diamant. IMHO it looks good on paper but don't know enough about the horses themselves to say whether they are a good match in real life.

    http://sporthorsedata.com/dbtestmati...damid=10559531



  3. #63
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    well what do you suggest I do with the foal from this year?



  4. #64
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    If it looks like a nice one, love it and keep it safe. There was a thread recently about doubling up on some of the lines in your mare. Worth looking for and watching out for in your baby. You may have got lucky and bred a super one. I'm not knocking your choice BTW, just explaining what Bayhawk meant by his post.



  5. #65
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    I think Bayhawk’s comments are a reference to the fact that simply because the names in a pedigree are impressive, it doesn’t mean the breeding combination was a good thing. Doubling up can produce all sorts of undesirable outcomes. Here's hoping your foal is lovely... but I tend to agree with stolensilver that Diamant de Semilly might be a better choice.
    Last edited by Cartier; Jul. 26, 2010 at 10:36 PM.



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewels09 View Post
    well what do you suggest I do with the foal from this year?
    Send him to me! I'll hide him for you.
    Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

    http://www.halcyon-hill.com



  7. #67
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    okay, I admit I wasn't playing nice. After the arrogance of bayhawks post I decided it would be fun to play naive and stupid and see what the outrageous comments that everyone came up with. I was waiting for the comments on Contenders "being slaughtered in Holstein" and all the experts telling us how unless you "sit at a table and drink coffee with breeders in Holstein you don't know anything"

    I apologize for trying to add fuel to the fire, and it is probably good he hasn't taken the bait.

    For those of you who don't approve of the breeding we will just have to battle it out at the Hamptons YJC in 2015



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewels09 View Post
    okay, I admit I wasn't playing nice. After the arrogance of bayhawks post I decided it would be fun to play naive and stupid and see what the outrageous comments that everyone came up with. I was waiting for the comments on Contenders "being slaughtered in Holstein" and all the experts telling us how unless you "sit at a table and drink coffee with breeders in Holstein you don't know anything"

    I apologize for trying to add fuel to the fire, and it is probably good he hasn't taken the bait.

    For those of you who don't approve of the breeding we will just have to battle it out at the Hamptons YJC in 2015
    a fascinating admission. somewhat sad.

    i have two doing the yjc at the hamptons this year and possibly a third. all three of these individuals and their mothers have been successfully bred with bayhawk's assistance and input.

    y'all enjoy being indignant about the messenger. i hope you aren't missing the message.



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ne1 View Post
    a fascinating admission. somewhat sad.

    i have two doing the yjc at the hamptons this year and possibly a third. all three of these individuals and their mothers have been successfully bred with bayhawk's assistance and input.

    y'all enjoy being indignant about the messenger. i hope you aren't missing the message.
    I am sure your horses are fabulous, NE, as are Bayhawk's, but I have seen a number of the horses Jewels09 has and they are excellent as well. I don't think you guys have such terribly different ideals, or even experiences perhaps.

    One must admit that the post "Did anyone even look at the pedigree before doing the insemination" is a bit inflammatory, as opposed to maybe "I would be careful about how much xyz you use in the pedigree, but glad you got a nice foal this year". One is full or derision, the other intends to educate.

    Those of you with such strong sentiments as "messengers" might do well to phrase your messages as educational rather than accusatory, belittling and patronizing as they generally come across. Then maybe the message would be heard by more people.

    JMHO.
    Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

    http://www.halcyon-hill.com


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #70
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    Not sure if Bayhawk was harsh or just "on point" (possibly more of the former than the latter, but it's a matter of perspective). True, his comment was strong, given that the foal is already on the ground, but that is his way; he doesn’t mince words. Overall we value his input on this forum and finds his posts well worth reading. Unlike so many who post here, his contributions are not centered on constantly pimping his (or his friend’s) horses… but rather on a breeding strategy that he values.. that has proven to be successful. I can’t recall him ever posting simply to inflame a situation.



  11. #71
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    Thank you Cartier and Nick.

    Jewels......why would you try and bait me into a situation to make yourself look even more uneducated ? I am very educated about the Holsteiner and this breeding. These horses are right in my wheelhouse. Like Nick said , your admission is sad.

    You don't have to know about inbred horses going to the butcher or sit at the coffee tables of famous breeders to know that you shouldn't breed a stallion by Diamant / Corrado / Contender to a mare by Cassini / Corrado / Contender. Why would you do this ?

    We do agree on one thing , the only hope for this animal is the show ring. This is the only place the terrible pedigree (yes, it's terrible) won't matter. Maybe I should retract that seeing as it may matter yet , as we don't know if this horse will even be sane or not under the rider or what crazy physical or mental quirks it may have due to the very heavy, close inbreeding.

    In my opinion , this breeding is absolutely ridiculous. Harsh words ? Yep ! I think they are well deserved. There.......I took the bait.
    Last edited by Bayhawk; Jul. 27, 2010 at 03:19 PM.



  12. #72
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    I'm always willing to learn and would love to know why you chose to do that cross Jewels when you knew how much close linebreeding it would produce. I know linebreeding can be very successful, a modern example is the Trakehner stallion Irdenkreis
    http://sporthorsedata.com/d?z=7v-Uyo...nkreis&x=0&y=0

    but the big difference between his pedigree and that of your foal is that he is linebred to as many mares as he is stallions and most of those mares are true greats of the breed. Your foal is only linebred to stallions some of whom are known for producing problems when doubled up.

    I don't understand your rationale but you sound as if you have one. Please can you explain why you chose Diarado for that mare in particular? I'd really like to understand.



  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartier View Post
    Not sure if Bayhawk was harsh or just "on point" (possibly more of the former than the latter, but it's a matter of perspective). True, his comment was strong, given that the foal is already on the ground, but that is his way; he doesn’t mince words. Overall we value his input on this forum and finds his posts well worth reading. Unlike so many who post here, his contributions are not centered on constantly pimping his (or his friend’s) horses… but rather on a breeding strategy that he values.. that has proven to be successful. I can’t recall him ever posting simply to inflame a situation.
    I totally agree that Bayhawk has excellent information to add, as does ne1, but that sometimes the information can be lost in the delivery. Not everyone is as educated or experienced so sometimes the posts, to my eyes, can come across as patronizing or inconsiderate. If it were my foal, I am not sure what I would have learned so far, other than to have my feelings hurt about a baby I have. That is my only point. There are a lot of people who are trying to breed good horses and who WANT to learn, and that is why we are on here.

    I agree it is a lot of doubling up in the pedigree, but who knows, maybe it will work for this individual horse.
    Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

    http://www.halcyon-hill.com



  14. #74
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    From Jewel's posts it sounds as if they are an educated breeder and that's why I'd love them to post why they made that stallion choice for their mare. It is unusual and it does double up on a lot of horses in the mare's pedigree and I'd really genuinely like to learn why the decision was made.



  15. #75
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    Jewels -by chance are you involved with Cubito?

    For some reason I thought you were involved with that farm--if so --what a lovely contender son-- his latest jump pictures are WOW.

    (My apologizes if I got that wrong....I think I remember you mentioning a nice Last News mare - not many of those around--hence the confusion on my part.)



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by buschkn View Post
    I totally agree that Bayhawk has excellent information to add, as does ne1, but that sometimes the information can be lost in the delivery. Not everyone is as educated or experienced so sometimes the posts, to my eyes, can come across as patronizing or inconsiderate. If it were my foal, I am not sure what I would have learned so far, other than to have my feelings hurt about a baby I have. That is my only point. There are a lot of people who are trying to breed good horses and who WANT to learn, and that is why we are on here.

    I agree it is a lot of doubling up in the pedigree, but who knows, maybe it will work for this individual horse.
    You know , you may be right. It's never my intent to patronize or belittle , nor is it my intent to sugar coat, so naturally there may be issues with the delivery.

    I posed what I thought was a good question. "Did anybody even look at the pedigree " ? It's the same as me coming on here saying I bred my Cassini II / Lavaletto / Acord II mare to a stallion by Corrado / Lavaletto / Acord II. This is lunacy.

    Her foal is not only triple Capitol , double Contender and double Corrado in the first 4 generations , it also has 10 million crosses to Ramzes and 5 to Corde la bryere a little ways back . This baby is severely inbred and I feel sorry for it.



  17. #77
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    there is the difference being the sire of the foal is 1/2 total outcross (or half bred so to speak).



  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by buschkn View Post
    I totally agree that Bayhawk has excellent information to add, as does ne1, but that sometimes the information can be lost in the delivery. Not everyone is as educated or experienced so sometimes the posts, to my eyes, can come across as patronizing or inconsiderate. If it were my foal, I am not sure what I would have learned so far, other than to have my feelings hurt about a baby I have. That is my only point. There are a lot of people who are trying to breed good horses and who WANT to learn, and that is why we are on here.

    I agree it is a lot of doubling up in the pedigree, but who knows, maybe it will work for this individual horse.
    I am up with a puppy... who is in the process of being housebroken... and when she says she "has to go" ... I get going. just saw this. I guess we come from different perspectives on this topic. To back up, if I am asking my husband if a pair of jeans makes me look fat, I may want things sugar-coated a bit … but in the context of making breeding decisions, sugar-coating has no place. Whether it be the Dobermans or the horses, as breeders we (universal we), are making choices that impact living creatures and those who own them, for years into the future. Ultimately we are talking about future owners time and money… and the quality of life for the horse being produced. Breeders need to be 100% objective, they need to be cautious about breeding choices, especially when the pedigrees start to get close, and they need to be responsible for the decisions they make for the life of the animal. I am not suggesting that breeders be swayed by every opinion whizzing past, but objective comments from knowledgeable breeders (like Bayhawk) should not be crippling.

    Breeders need more than a deep pocket book and balls of brass… they need a bit of well-reasoned caution, if only for the sake of the quality of life of the animal they produce. Just my thoughts...



  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartier View Post
    I am up with a puppy... who is in the process of being housebroken... and when she says she "has to go" ... I get going. just saw this. I guess we come from different perspectives on this topic. To back up, if I am asking my husband if a pair of jeans makes me look fat, I may want things sugar-coated a bit … but in the context of making breeding decisions, sugar-coating has no place. Whether it be the Dobermans or the horses, as breeders we (universal we), are making choices that impact living creatures and those who own them, for years into the future. Ultimately we are talking about future owners time and money… and the quality of life for the horse being produced. Breeders need to be 100% objective, they need to be cautious about breeding choices, especially when the pedigrees start to get close, and they need to be responsible for the decisions they make for the life of the animal. I am not suggesting that breeders be swayed by every opinion whizzing past, but objective comments from knowledgeable breeders (like Bayhawk) should not be crippling.

    Breeders need more than a deep pocket book and balls of brass… they need a bit of well-reasoned caution, if only for the sake of the quality of life of the animal they produce. Just my thoughts...
    Also good points/thoughts. I am not suggesting that it be sugar coated AT ALL, which perhaps is not coming across. I agree that objectivity is very important when making these decisions about creating new life.

    There are a thousand ways to say the same thing. Heck, you can say the exact same sentence five different ways with five different intonations and five different meanings. I didn't mean to start a debate on semantics, just that sometimes the message may be lost in the delivery, as Bayhawk so nicely put it.

    For example, I do not breed Holsteiners, but since I own and am now also breeding jumpers, naturally I have plenty of Holsteiner blood floating around here. Rather than having posts that say "Are you crazy?" is essence, it would be more helpful for me to hear WHY it is a bad idea to double up on certain lines, etc. Perhpas the assumption is that EVERYONE knows not to double Capitol, or Corrado, or Contender, or Accord II, or ... but I am one who does not necessarily know all these "facts", and more importantly the WHYS of them.

    I hear a lot of absolutes thrown around but I often don't get solid answers about WHY that is the case. That is what is important to me, and I am more inclined to learn and remember that, than just a series of arbitrary rules of do's and don'ts, if that makes sense.

    So I apologize if you thought I want people to always be spreading sunshine and roses, that was certainly not my intention. Just that for me there is more to educating than "don't do that".
    Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

    http://www.halcyon-hill.com



  20. #80
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    I don’t think good breeding strategies give you the absolutes you are looking for. Rather, there are guidelines based upon experience and a proven formula for producing performance success, which is what Bayhawk speaks of. Along those lines, as a general rule of thumb (and not related to ANY foal or breeder on this thread), it would be better to have a breeding strategy that says, “before doubling up too much on any given pedigree, the breeder should have some rock solid data on why it is a good idea,” rather than an approach that reflects something like, “hey, no one told me not to do it.”

    My only other comment is, what the heck are we doing up at this time? I am sitting here trying to decide if I should just start the coffee... or try to fall back to sleep. The puppy fell back sound asleep about 20 minutes ago.
    Last edited by Cartier; Jul. 28, 2010 at 06:10 AM.



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