[buschkn]

it would be better to have a breeding strategy that says, “before doubling up too much on any given pedigree, the breeder should have some rock solid data on why it is a good idea,” rather than an approach that reflects something like, “hey, no one told me not to do it.”

Good point I can accept that.

As for why be up at this ridiculous hour, sadly I am at work. But at least I'm getting paid! Go back to sleep!

[Bayhawk]

Also good points/thoughts. I am not suggesting that it be sugar coated AT ALL, which perhaps is not coming across. I agree that objectivity is very important when making these decisions about creating new life.

There are a thousand ways to say the same thing. Heck, you can say the exact same sentence five different ways with five different intonations and five different meanings. I didn't mean to start a debate on semantics, just that sometimes the message may be lost in the delivery, as Bayhawk so nicely put it.

For example, I do not breed Holsteiners, but since I own and am now also breeding jumpers, naturally I have plenty of Holsteiner blood floating around here. Rather than having posts that say "Are you crazy?" is essence, it would be more helpful for me to hear WHY it is a bad idea to double up on certain lines, etc. Perhpas the assumption is that EVERYONE knows not to double Capitol, or Corrado, or Contender, or Accord II, or ... but I am one who does not necessarily know all these "facts", and more importantly the WHYS of them.

I hear a lot of absolutes thrown around but I often don't get solid answers about WHY that is the case. That is what is important to me, and I am more inclined to learn and remember that, than just a series of arbitrary rules of do's and don'ts, if that makes sense.

So I apologize if you thought I want people to always be spreading sunshine and roses, that was certainly not my intention. Just that for me there is more to educating than "don't do that".

This brings up a very good point. People need to know and most times they will ask. Remember the "doubling up on Contender" thread a little while ago ? That was very informative as to why one probably should not try this. If a breeder did it anyway , it wouldn't have solicited such a harsch response.

This breeding however , is very arrogant in my opinion and has no regard for the welfare of the foal.

Capitol is known to throw very heavy and cold , with short croups and inbred foals to him are now proving to have a very high rate of OCD. He is represented 3 times. Contender has issues with the hind legs and throws it . He is represented twice. Corrado has major issues with topline production and he is represented twice. All this outside of the fact that all 3 sires whice are respresented 7 times , are old type with old blood.

And no Omare........One outcross stallion does not help this. The inbreeding is too concentrated , too close.

[goodmorning]

Capitol is known to throw very heavy and cold , with short croups and inbred foals to him are now proving to have a very high rate of OCD. He is represented 3 times.

I"m curious, is doubling up on Capitol's dam Fiola as problematic? Or just not something ever done?

[ne1]

I"m curious, is doubling up on Capitol's dam Fiola as problematic? Or just not something ever done?

no, not a problem, especially when from different children.

i have a slightly different view about linebreeding two of the earlier mentioned stallions. the warnings and failures around linebreeding to contender and acord ii are clear. however, it is getting harder and harder not to linebreed to capitol and there are not many downsides coming from that when the rest of the genotype and phenotypes are fully taken into account. with the right mare it can work fine.

also, corrado can be linebred but only where toplines are strong and again, better when he's further back in the resulting pedigree.

[Bayhawk]

Double Capitol has been working just fine for the production of horses for the sport. Triple Capitol ? Not for me , but I could see it if done properly thru sex balance , just not coupled with double Contender and double Corrado.

I have often considered and may in fact breed one of my Cassini II / Lavaletto / Acord II mares to Campesino. This would line breed the two Capitol sons , thus concentrating his genetics. If you look at the rest of the pedigree also , you will see that Capitol would be the only common horse in that pedigree other than a couple crosses to Corde la bryere far back. Campesino / Cassini II / Lavaletto / Acord II / Sable Skinflint xx........this is a good example of proper linebreeding to Capitol and my mare should be able to accomodate this due to her proper physical construction and she has enough blood.

[Sacha]

to go back to the question of Diarado and his foals. i have to say under saddle he is charming to watch work, very easy and compliant, with lovely looseness and a real athletic ease about him. I didnt get to see all his foals at the recent oldenburg foal inspection held here but the ones I did see had a real quality, and to my eye where very elegant, with good toplines and a real ease of movement like their sire. Of course there were one or two that were a little plain and uninteresting but on the whole I liked what I saw a lot, and definatly did not notice a tendancy to smallness which was a rumour I had heard before coming to germany.

[bluemoonfarms]

There are some pics and come video at these two sites. The first has all Diarado foals and the second is the Hanoverian Foal and Broodmare Auction Site that has some Diarado foals in it. Enjoy!

http://www.schockemoehle.com/en/serv...ash=fb0af39bbf


http://service.vit.de/pfauktion/pfli...rsicht?id=2510

[Kebekwoise]

Just want to share some Diarado out of pony mare bred in France by l' Élevage de Blonde!

ARISTO DE BLONDE
Diarado x Melodie des Courcelles x Vinci du Logis
http://www.elevagedeblonde.com/_medi...de-blonde4.jpg
http://www.elevagedeblonde.com/_medi...-de-blonde.jpg

ATTACCA DE BLONDE
Diarado x Batucada de Blonde x Linaro
http://www.elevagedeblonde.com/_media/attacca.jpg

ADAMANTE DE BLONDE
Diarado x Daisy de la Forge x Walid Al Fawzan
http://www.elevagedeblonde.com/_medi..._de_blonde.jpg

[Bayhawk]

There are some pics and come video at these two sites. The first has all Diarado foals and the second is the Hanoverian Foal and Broodmare Auction Site that has some Diarado foals in it. Enjoy!

http://www.schockemoehle.com/en/serv...ash=fb0af39bbf


http://service.vit.de/pfauktion/pfli...rsicht?id=2510

In my opinion , this only serves to solidify the aforementioned opinion of most breeders in Holstein. These Diarado foals are all a bit "normal" . I didn't see one that wowed me and most appear to me not as good as their mothers.

Now we wait to see what they do as adults.

[SueL]

You know , you may be right. It's never my intent to patronize or belittle , nor is it my intent to sugar coat, so naturally there may be issues with the delivery.

I posed what I thought was a good question. "Did anybody even look at the pedigree " ? It's the same as me coming on here saying I bred my Cassini II / Lavaletto / Acord II mare to a stallion by Corrado / Lavaletto / Acord II. This is lunacy.

Her foal is not only triple Capitol , double Contender and double Corrado in the first 4 generations , it also has 10 million crosses to Ramzes and 5 to Corde la bryere a little ways back . This baby is severely inbred and I feel sorry for it.

FWIW, Bayhawk, I have absolutely no problem with your delivery. I far prefer a straight shooter who speaks honestly than someone who tries to make me feel good, even if the truth hurts.

If you give credit to your mentors in Holstein *and* enjoy their company, where's the harm in that? Much of the tradition of horsemanship, including breeding, is oral. Someone has to preserve that oral tradition. Sitting down and discussing breeding with breeders in Holstein is no different than doing the same with a Kentucky hardboot. Yet somehow on this board I think the latter would be more accepted than the former. More's the pity.

Agreed. Too much inbreeding and totally unnecessary considering what is available in Holstein today.

Sue

[Bayhawk]

Thank you SueL !

You hit the nail on the head with "unnecessary". This was my question all along.........why ? It didn't have to be done.

[alison123]

I was very happy with diarado semen. It is all about the mares and the combination that I had turned out very well. Here are a couple of our links. We had another beautiful colt but he had to be put down due to a broken leg. It was horrible. We tried to breed back to our mare with another dose of Diarado but it didnt work. It was a beautiful line breed out of a Contender Cor de La Bryere cross. Now the mare is in foal to Levisonn. Well here ar esome photos and above all I think the temperment is great

http://www.hunterjumperprospects.com...20carvalla.htm
http://www.hunterjumperprospects.com...%20germany.htm

[Walnut Farm]

ok ok, so I asked the owner at the world championship

First year: 80 Holsteiner

At his place (holland) 224 mares, and PS about the same. He said in the last 3 years, 1500 (tops) total to date.

So we were both mistaken

[Bayhawk]

ok ok, so I asked the owner at the world championship

First year: 80 Holsteiner

At his place (holland) 224 mares, and PS about the same. He said in the last 3 years, 1500 (tops) total to date.

So we were both mistaken

Well there you go........

[Bayhawk]

I was very happy with diarado semen. It is all about the mares and the combination that I had turned out very well. Here are a couple of our links. We had another beautiful colt but he had to be put down due to a broken leg. It was horrible. We tried to breed back to our mare with another dose of Diarado but it didnt work. It was a beautiful line breed out of a Contender Cor de La Bryere cross. Now the mare is in foal to Levisonn. Well here ar esome photos and above all I think the temperment is great

http://www.hunterjumperprospects.com...20carvalla.htm
http://www.hunterjumperprospects.com...%20germany.htm

I 'm sorry you lost your foal but I must challenge your statement about the "beautiful line breed to Contender".

This is not beautiful breeding. It is not at all desirable to have Contender twice in the pedigree.

[Cartier]

... I asked the owner at the world championship

First year: 80 Holsteiner

At his place (holland) 224 mares, and PS about the same. He said in the last 3 years, 1500 (tops) total to date.

1,500 mares at about $1,800.00 per mare is $2,700,000.00. That's a nice chunk of change for a 5 year old stallion who has yet to do anything in competition.

[Sacha]

1,500 mares at about $1,800.00 per mare is $2,700,000.00. That's a nice chunk of change for a 5 year old stallion who has yet to do anything in competition.

I think you'll find Diarado has been competing this season and doing very well indeed with some super impressive scores in young horse classes

[Time Chaser]

We have a 2010 Diarado filly. She will be an outstanding professionals horse. With scope, speed, a brain, step and agility. This one will be staying in our breeding program when ready, but will be in the jumper ring to prove this line within the next three years. I expect her in the young jumpers to do extremely well. She was bred for in upstate NY, and I found her actually looking for Chesapeake offspring. Her markings are unique, with a cascading dark bay to sorrel tail, four white stockings, and incredible conformation.

We are looking forward to her future.

She was produced by Saddle Brook Farms in Staatsburg, NY.

[omare]

I think Branscomb Farm had a very handsome colt this year.

[Home Again Farm]

I am hosting a Hanoverian inspection on the 12th, and have a Diarado filly coming out of Pauleah, a very high scoring mare by Papparazzo. Can hardly wait to see her.