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  1. #1
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    Question How many WB foals born in USA ?

    Is there a source to find out how many WB sport horses are born in '08 in the US?

    Can this information be split between Jumper/hunter and dressage?
    Can we know how many of these are out of TB mares?

    If there is no official source to find out, what is your own opinion about these numbers?
    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
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  2. #2
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    Hi Andy - the only person on this board that could answer that question is Tri. She has access to all warmblood registries' secret numbers and member lists and is also the resident expert on all matters hunter/jumper, TBs, ponies, etc. You will never meet another person like her! :-)
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  3. #3
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    Well, I think there are so many factors to consider - are you talking about Warmbloods REGISTERED? Not all of them are registered. Some breeders "cull" results by not registering the foals that don't measure up. Or they registered them in a "mystery" registry, such as PHR where you don't have to list bloodlines. Or the foal is injured or dies before being registered.

    Are you talking about European WB registries? Or do you include AWR and AWS? What about RPSI - European, but includes many of the same non-Euro bloodlines that AWR and AWS will accept?

    Are you including horses with COPs - so one parent is approved with a registry, the other is not (I'll throw out a few I saw issued COPs in the past couple of years - Morgan/Hannoverian, Quarter Horse/Hannoverian, Appaloosa/Hannoverian)?

    What about horses who are half Warmblood, but the breeder CHOSE a different registry - for example, the half Arabian sport horses are HUGELY popular, so many times, they never make it to a WB registry.

    I can't claim to have the insight that Seigi refers to in her post or access to that database, but just wanted to play devil's advocate and ask WHICH number you are seeking...

    I think the answer is no one really has an answer. Each registry can probably provide numbers that are REGISTERED each year.
    www.MysticOakRanch.com Friesian/Warmblood Crosses, the Ultimate Sporthorse
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  4. #4
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    Why thank you Siegi! I knew you'd be seeing things my way before long. Perhaps one day we will truly meet but I wouldn't want to make you feel more stupid than you already are, so perhaps we shouldn't.



  5. #5
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    I'm not limited to registered WB, nor to European WB registries.
    I would include half WB, as long as the intent of the breeder is to produce a Sport Horse.

    I would like to get evaluations from the COTHers, because it's clear that the registries will not give a realistic view of how much Sport horses, US breeders are putting on the ground each year.

    To put these numbers in perspective with what is going on the other side of the pond.
    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
    Rudyard Kipling
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Quartz...26013000796803



  6. #6
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    I researched this prior to 2000 over a few years,. I know it has changed alot since then,,, but nearing 100,000 from over the pond ( euro countries- England, Ireland , France, Germany Belgium Denmark Sweden)

    The US was less than 1000 at that time.
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
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  7. #7
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    I would expect that the big registries (ISR/Old NA and RPSI) are registering about 300 to 500 foals each. The smaller major registries (AHS, KWPN, AHHA, ATA, GOV, and BWP) maybe 100 to 300 foals each. I bet our number is around 2500, but I may be way off base. The only way to really know is to get a number from each of the registries.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    I would expect that the big registries (ISR/Old NA and RPSI) are registering about 300 to 500 foals each. The smaller major registries (AHS, KWPN, AHHA, ATA, GOV, and BWP) maybe 100 to 300 foals each. I bet our number is around 2500, but I may be way off base. The only way to really know is to get a number from each of the registries.
    I was told a while back that Oldenburg (GOV) registered approx. 470 foals in the U.S. and Canada in 2007. I don't know what the 2008 numbers were, but they had apparently been going up every year at a fairly steady rate.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    I was told a while back that Oldenburg (GOV) registered approx. 470 foals in the U.S. and Canada in 2007. I don't know what the 2008 numbers were, but they had apparently been going up every year at a fairly steady rate.
    The AHS was about 550 for a few years, and in 2007 and 2008 the numbers were about 600/year.
    "If a horse has a "warm" back—loose, supple and oscillating—he can lift the rider...on a "cold" back—low and stiff—the rider achieves nothing other than growing old sitting on it." —Charles de Kunffy



  10. #10
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    Showjumpers66 - is the RPSI really considered one of the "big" registries in the US?
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  11. #11
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    What about KWPN-NA? Seems like I heard their numbers run about 350 - 400 per year.

    So is 3000 - 3500 a reasonable number of REGISTERED WB foals?

    ISR - 400
    RPSI - 400
    AHS - 600
    Oldenburg (GOV) - 450
    KWPN-NA - 400

    That comes to 2250. Add in ATA, AHHA, Westfalens, Swedish, AWR, AWS, and it could probably top 3000.



  12. #12
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    It looks like my guesses were low all the way around.

    Yes, I would expect RPSI and ISR to have the largest numbers of foal registrations each year. When I look at our stallions' reports, 50% of the foals are registered with RPSI, 25% are registered with CWHBA, 5% are not registered, and the remaining 20% are registered with AHHA, KWPN, and GOV.

    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    Showjumpers66 - is the RPSI really considered one of the "big" registries in the US?
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    It looks like my guesses were low all the way around.

    Yes, I would expect RPSI and ISR to have the largest numbers of foal registrations each year. When I look at our stallions' reports, 50% of the foals are registered with RPSI, 25% are registered with CWHBA, 5% are not registered, and the remaining 20% are registered with AHHA, KWPN, and GOV.
    Barb, why would you expect RPSI to be one of the largest? I have heard for years that ISR, AHS, and KWPN-NA were the largest, with Oldenburg (GOV) hot on their heels. It surprises me to hear that RPSI is one of the largest registries here since it is one of the smallest WB registries in Germany. I attended a seminar a few years ago where the keynote speaker was the head of the German FN, and his presentation contained numbers for all the WB registries in Germany. RPSI was WAY down the list, with - IIRC - less than 1500 mares in their mare books.

    Also, do you think it is possible that most of your stallions' foals are registered with RPSI because you have been heavily promoting RPSI for years, including holding inspections for them, etc.? Also, now that your other stallions are approved by Oldenburg (GOV), I would think those numbers would pick up some (wasn't Landwerder the only one approved for Oldenburg breeding up until last year?). I'm not trying to be contentious, just curious.



  14. #14
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    Until the registries share the information, it is just a guessing game. The registries' sizes in Germany have absolutely no correlation with the size of their NA sister groups.

    We are game for supporting all of the registries and do so in regards to the stallion testing. We host inspections yearly for KWPN, GOV, and RPSI. We are open to hosting inspections for BWP, ISR, AHS and any others. ISR and AHS are currently hosted at Woodridge Farm by Vanessa Carlson who does a lovely job. We have mares in the mare books with AHHA, KWPN, GOV, ISR, and RPSI. We try to share the love. The stallions were presented in 2007, were activated with GOV for the 2008 breeding season, and we advertised as such, but we did not have many GOV mares book to the stallions. We activated Apiro and Landwerder with CWHBA for the first time in 2008 and had a great response. Go figure!
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
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  15. #15
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    I agree with Down Yonder that what you are seeing with your booked mares likely has more to do with your stallion's approvals, rather than a true reflection of the market....especially if 2008 was the first year several of your stallions had their GOV.
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  16. #16
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    OK, can we agree that in '08 in North America, we have around 4000 WB foals born?

    I can understand that comparing with the about 100,000 born on the other side... comparison is not fair, and when you include the huge size of your land, huge complications.

    Can you imagine a North American registry that will be an umbrella to all the other registries present in NA?
    Something that could allow to have some ambitious objectives that can't be met by very small entities as it is today?
    Are American breeders so individualistic that this is something they will never accept?

    I imagine that much faster progress can be achieved when every body pulls in a common direction.
    You need to start somewhere and combining the efforts is your best way, because of the small size of your industry.

    I can clearly see all the advantages that we enjoy in Europe, and wish that you can overcome, as soon as possible, the hurdles you face.

    I've had no idea that the numbers were that small.
    Do you know the number of riders that are your potential customers? This could explain why so many are traveling to find WBs.
    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
    Rudyard Kipling
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    Until the registries share the information, it is just a guessing game. The registries' sizes in Germany have absolutely no correlation with the size of their NA sister groups.
    This is true. Most of the German registries that have a N.A. counterpart registry are probably 7-8 times larger in Germany than here. Also, we tend to measure registry size differently here. We think in terms of number of members, while the Germans think in terms of how many mares are in their active mare books.

    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    We are game for supporting all of the registries and do so in regards to the stallion testing. We host inspections yearly for KWPN, GOV, and RPSI. We are open to hosting inspections for BWP, ISR, AHS and any others. ISR and AHS are currently hosted at Woodridge Farm by Vanessa Carlson who does a lovely job. We have mares in the mare books with AHHA, KWPN, GOV, ISR, and RPSI. We try to share the love. The stallions were presented in 2007, were activated with GOV for the 2008 breeding season, and we advertised as such, but we did not have many GOV mares book to the stallions. We activated Apiro and Landwerder with CWHBA for the first time in 2008 and had a great response. Go figure!
    Not sure why you didn't get many Oldenburg mares in 2008, but maybe because many of the registry's hunter and jumper breeders already had stallions in mind for their mares. I know most of the ones I talk to are pretty fond of their Corlando, Paparazzo and Escudo II foals, for instance, and have talked about breeding back to those stallions (although in the first instance, they will have to make a different choice since Corlando has passed). It will be interesting to see what the 2009 breeding season brings - I would think Apiro in particular would be getting more interest as his first N.A. foals start getting seen and his own performance career progresses. At any rate, good luck with all the boys in the New Year!



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy.smaga View Post
    OK, can we agree that in '08 in North America, we have around 4000 WB foals born?

    I can understand that comparing with the about 100,000 born on the other side... comparison is not fair, and when you include the huge size of your land, huge complications.
    Yes, and it also helps explain why so many people continue to shop in Europe - there are just so many more horses to choose from, in a smaller geographic area, plus, as has been stated many times, there is a well-oiled system in place there for getting young horses started, and (often) out to their first shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy.smaga View Post
    Can you imagine a North American registry that will be an umbrella to all the other registries present in NA?
    Something that could allow to have some ambitious objectives that can't be met by very small entities as it is today? Are American breeders so individualistic that this is something they will never accept?
    We had an umbrella organization here - The Federation of North American Sport Horse Registries - but it fell apart due to political bickering among the registry representatives and controversy and threatened lawsuits over one of the 100 day stallion tests that the Federation sponsored. Unfortunately, nothing has appeared to take its place.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy.smaga View Post
    Are American breeders so individualistic that this is something they will never accept?
    I think most American breeders would LOVE to have an umbrella organization of some sort, but many are not willing to give up their current registry affiliations and join a purely American registry. Also, regarding the political bickering I mentioned above - a great deal of this was instigated by a GERMAN who is the Exec. Director of one of our largest registries, and who tried very, very hard to keep certain other registries OUT of the organization. That didn't sit too well with many representatives of other registries that WERE members, hence the bickering.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy.smaga View Post
    I imagine that much faster progress can be achieved when every body pulls in a common direction.
    You need to start somewhere and combining the efforts is your best way, because of the small size of your industry.

    I can clearly see all the advantages that we enjoy in Europe, and wish that you can overcome, as soon as possible, the hurdles you face.
    I imagine most American breeders would certainly agree with you that we could make faster progress if we were all pulling in a common direction - it is just that many disagree HOW to go about doing that. Again, having ONE registry is not a solution that many breeders will accept. Our Hanoverian and Dutch WB breeders, for instance, as well as many of our Oldenburg (GOV) breeders absolutely WILL NOT GIVE UP their current registry affiliations. Besides, there are many - including me - who will argue that our breeding efforts here have made HUGE improvements in the past 10-12 years, and mostly because of the guidance we have received from European registries and inspectors. We have learned to use better mares and make better stallion choices, and more and more breeders are putting exceptional quality foals on the ground every year.

    Quote Originally Posted by andy.smaga View Post
    I've had no idea that the numbers were that small. Do you know the number of riders that are your potential customers? This could explain why so many are traveling to find WBs.
    I am not sure about number of riders. I imagine maybe USEF has some stats on that. I would have to hunt around and see if I can find them, unless someone else knows.
    Last edited by DownYonder; Jan. 7, 2009 at 09:38 AM. Reason: edited a typo



  19. #19
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    I think USEF has stats on the demographics of their membership. They need them to sell advertising in their magazine.

    RPSI has been very aggressive in holding inspections all over the country. That may give an impression of scale, but I doubt it is one of the largest.

    I'd put AHS and ONA at the top, followed by GOV, and the others somewhere behind in terms of membership.

    I asked Holly Simonson if the GOV inspections were a marketing tool to get Americans to come to Germany to buy GOV horses. She said NO. Most GOV horses sold outside Germany go to other European countries or around the world, but the US is not importing a lot of horses .... contrary to all these threads on "all those people" who are buying in Europe.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakstable View Post
    I asked Holly Simonson if the GOV inspections were a marketing tool to get Americans to come to Germany to buy GOV horses. She said NO. Most GOV horses sold outside Germany go to other European countries or around the world, but the US is not importing a lot of horses .... contrary to all these threads on "all those people" who are buying in Europe.
    The recent numbers for the Hanoverian Verden's July auction shows of 108 riding horses sold, 10 went to the US, and of the 326 foals, 2 went to the US. Hardly a stunning number. I know this isn't Gov - but I think helps support your comment about "all those people"...

    What I see, is mostly riding age horses being imported - not in huge numbers, but as DY points out, they do have a more coordinated training program - and a less expensive one. We (in the US) have some GOOD (even EXCELLENT) trainers, but the cost of 6 months on a young horse makes it cost-prohibitive here...
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