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  1. #21
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    Well, I am horrified by it all, just horrified that people like this exist. But then hey, what the hell, isn't this the opinion of all the farmers out there? Your animal is only allowed to live until production stops peaking, usually WAY before their natural time.

    Such is the hypocracy though. We collectively like the taste of one, so such treatment is totally acceptable and totally not cruel. If you go on about the way cows or pigs ect are treated you get the " shutup, PETA, farm animals do not suffer!" shit. But then, if you don't like to eat them, the exact same thing is cruel.

    Its all cruel and it's all wrong, so you had better take a good hard look in the mirror before not sit back and point a finger at this heartless woman if you routinely go to the grocery store and give your money to people who treat an almost physiologically and mentally identical animal the exact same way (actually, much worse) as this lady treats the horses she buys and sells. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever.
    www.svhanoverians.com

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    Its all cruel and it's all wrong, so you had better take a good hard look in the mirror before not sit back and point a finger at this heartless woman if you routinely go to the grocery store and give your money to people who treat an almost physiologically and mentally identical animal the exact same way (actually, much worse) as this lady treats the horses she buys and sells. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever.
    Exactly right!

    I'm no vegan -- I eat meat and I see no problem raising animals for food. Otherwise most of these species would have no reason to exist at all. But it would be nice if they had a good life prior to that. In "the old days" the typical family farm animals would have a relatively good life prior to the day it was slaughtered, unlike many of the commercial farms of today. It had space, food, companionship.

    In my area it is still quite common for people to get a weaner pig or calf each year to raise, then the portable slaughter guy comes and collects it and a week later you go get your "product". Meanwhile, the animal runs in a large pasture, has buddies, is fed well and (in the case of my neighbor's pigs) gets to wander over to MY house and freak out the horses!

    I try to support local farmers (like most of my meat is buffalo, from the local bison ranch) and I will not eat veal, because I've seen how those little guys are raised and it sucks, but I don't have some blanket adversity to killing animals for food.

    And I've been to slaughter plants and watched horses slaughtered right in front of my eyes...it was no worse than the vet putting them down. Instead, so much of the cruelty seems to be in overcrowded transport and "stabling" while awaiting slaughter.

    Death is such a stranger to most of us -- we try so hard to remove ourselves from it -- and often it isn't pretty -- not for pigs or horses or people. But it IS a fact of life and that will never change. But LIFE can be pretty damn cruel as well...take a stroll through some long term care facilities one of these days....

    As for legislating people to be more responsible -- well, again I have to point to the small animal "problem" -- people who give their dogs/cats up to shelters, where most will face certain death are not prosecuted. Why not? And what's up with people not spaying or neutering pets...STILL!

    In my area some incredibly generous person donated the land to build a new shelter (privately funded), with the stipulation it be a "no-kill" shelter. It's a BEAUTIFUL facility -- 3x larger than the old one...yet when I went there last week to check out the cat collection (they are the source of all my barn cats), the gal said they were already filled....3 weeks after opening.

    I keep hearing stories of 100's of dogs/cats that were simply left behind in empty houses when the family's home was foreclosed on -- some starved to death.

    I mean COME ON!!!! How much $$$$ does it take to feed a dog or cat?!?

    So you really can't count on people to do the right thing....at least that is my incredibly cynical viewpoint....

    And banning slaughter before some workable, practical solution was in place was just plain stupid. It's a shame more people didn't speak up THEN...but they were afraid they'd be labeled cruel or something.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    I keep hearing stories of 100's of dogs/cats that were simply left behind in empty houses when the family's home was foreclosed on -- some starved to death.

    I mean COME ON!!!! How much $$$$ does it take to feed a dog or cat?!?
    It may not be the cost of feed, but rather a place to actually KEEP said dog or cat. You lose your house and where are you going? A relatives hopefully, but what if they wont let you bring your dog or cat? A hotel? They arent going to let you bring a dog or cat.

    But I agree its not that much to feed them at all.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pronzini View Post
    I'm not sure that that is right. There was an anti slaughter feel good proposition put on the ballet a few years ago but it didn't actually change the classification. Here's the text (now known as Penal Code section 598c)

    Unless you are thinking of something else and as a California horse owner, I would very much like to know what it is.
    Yup. Thinking of something else. In 1998, the The Prohibition of Horse Slaughter and Sale of Horsemeat for Human Consumption Act of 1998 made selling, buying or killing a horse for meat a felony, and the offering of horsemeat for human consumption a misdemeanor. Section 2(b) states: "Horses are not raised for food or fiber and are taxed differently than food animals."

    And, Cal Business and Professional Code
    · Section 4825.1(d) in reference to veterinary practice: Animals…raised, kept, or used for profit, and not including those species that are usually kept as pets such as …companion animals, including equines...

    There's more, but I truly don't have time to look it all up. Suffice it to say that when I moved to California in 2002, I was well aware of the fact that the equine in California was considered a companion animal. It had a direct impact on what I do because with livestock, the layperson is given more latitude when performing reproductive procedures.

    Hope that helps!

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
    It may not be the cost of feed, but rather a place to actually KEEP said dog or cat. You lose your house and where are you going? A relatives hopefully, but what if they wont let you bring your dog or cat? A hotel? They arent going to let you bring a dog or cat.

    But I agree its not that much to feed them at all.
    Well, many hotels DO allow dogs/cats. I stay in them all the time. Motel 6 for example.

    Back when I was seriously poor (as opposed to now, when I am just averagely poor), I arrived in Colorado with about $50 to my name. Me and my German Shepherd dog (all 110 lbs) lived for a month in my car.

    Or these people who say..."I'm moving and the landlord doesn't allow dogs/cats/ferrets/whatever." Then don't live there!! Pick another place! I've live all over this country and ALWAYS had at least one dog. Maybe I didn't live in the best places, but giving up the dog(s) was never an option.

    Again, it depends how loyal and determined you are.



  6. #26
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    I read this post on Fugly as well. And overall to me personally, she doesn't seem like a very nice person or someone who should have horses, but that's just me. Just like some of you probably wouldn't like me because I don't think slaughter, when done humanely, is a problem.

    Last week a letter was written to the Irish Field, our weekly racing/showing paper. It was from a very well know sporthorse breeder in this country and no they don't post here. Actually, they might not be breeding anymore. She stated we needed a different system to slaughter whereby the horse meat was prepared here instead of being shipped out. The real danger here is in live export. She cited welfare and jobs as the 2 major issues.

    Another problem is the current waiting time for slaughter which is roughly 6 weeks at the moment. This is to ensure horse if put down on the day, not waiting around or shipped live. We can also avail of the hunting kennels in this country. When you put a horse down, you call the kennels and they dispose of the animal as dog food. And mind you all the kennels have to conform to EU regulations for preparing the food for the dogs. My 2 foals which were lost were taken to the kennels. However harsh that may seem, it's what had to be done. We are not allowed to bury on the land.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think slaughter is a solution for people who breed willy nilly. Personally if I have a horse with issues which means finding a suitable home is not an option, I will always have them put down here with us. It's better than thinking you found a "forever" home which meant your horse had a lifetime of suffering ahead of him/her.

    I know many of you didn't want this to be a pro or anti thread, but it is the gist of the OP really.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    IWhen you put a horse down, you call the kennels and they dispose of the animal as dog food. And mind you all the kennels have to conform to EU regulations for preparing the food for the dogs. My 2 foals which were lost were taken to the kennels. However harsh that may seem, it's what had to be done.
    In my area there is a "Cat" zoo with various lions, tigers etc (a bear, too, I think). I had heard they would take horses and other livestock, put them down in your presence, then process them for cat food.

    So last winter I called them...I had a mare that I considered taking there. They had a TEN WEEK waiting list....



  8. #28
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    Unfortunately, attempting to limit breeders in their decisions about breeding stock, breeding programs and breeding decisions as to what is "good" and which is "poor" quality requires a value judgement which limits the rights and freedoms of those people concerned. I may pick different stock than somebody else, if my interests in what I do with my horses are different from someone else's. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong in their decisions, other than the free and open market? Show breeders make different decisions than race breeders, who make different decisions about what is important than someone breeding for their ideal cutting horse, or mountain riding or pack horse, driving horse, barrel racer, rodeo horse, or meat horse (for those who breed expressly FOR the meat market). If there is a market for it, and people are interested in it, there will be horses bred for each and every purpose, whether or not you personally are interested in this discipline or market, or approve of it. No value judgements from me on any of them, as long as the people involved feed and care adequately for the horses they have, while they own them. If there is no other market for the horses a breeder is producing, then they all have a basic value, a price per pound from the meat industry. This is the "safety net" for horses. Horses with no value to their own owners or anyone else will be neglected, abandoned, starved. This fate is to be avoided for all horses. The slaugher industry gives value to horses, it is the ultimate "rescue" for unfortunate horses who have no value for other parts of the industry, due to injury, conformational flaws, unsoundness, lack of training, or training from unskilled people. Not all horses are created equal, there is a normal curve of distribution of quality, no matter what breeding decisions are made. There are a limited number of quality owners. This creates competition for quality owners among horses.

    Just because some individuals are repulsed by the thought of equine slaughter or eating their equine friend, trying to impose THEIR opinions on others, limit and control others to force them to comply with their opinions is repugnant. You can not FORCE somebody to feel like you do about YOUR animals. You can impose regulations about minimum care levels that are required for owned animals, but you can't force change of thoughts on people you don't personally agree with. Countries have gone to war over dictators who have sought to impose thought control.

    The slaughter industry is PART of the equine industry, and needs to be accepted as such, regulated adequately with care and transport, and not swept under the rug, ignored, or abolished, just because some people don't like it. There are other parts of the equine industry that I don't personally like, am interested in, or participate in, but do not attempt to enforce my opinions on others who ARE.

    Attempts to limit breeders production, reduce numbers of horses bred, produce fewer horses only reduces the size of the entire industry, drives prices up of horses, feed, services etc, makes it harder for regular people to buy and own horses, more expensive and harder to bring new owners and riders into the equine industry. I don't think that anyone who likes horses wants to see this sort of thing happen. I like to see horses readily available and affordable to encourage more people to be able to pursue their interest in horses. That is how the entire industry gets and stays healthy, strong, which is good for both people and horses. Since the meat industry is driven by the desire of people to eat meat, limiting the number of horses available has nothing to do with the industry itself, other than driving up prices for both meat and riding horses, and the services that are related.



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by silver2 View Post
    I'm sorry but that's complete bullshit.

    As for the "Queen Asshat" I think what she does is fine, she buys essentially joblots of horses from the track and sorts through them for the ones that are sound/sane enough to be riding horses and then sends the rest to the place they were headed anyway. This is called being a horse dealer and it's been a legal way to make a living for about 10,000 years. The trainers known damn well what is happening, don't kid yourself, but this way at least their nice horses get a chance. Horses are livestock and I have no problem with them being slaughtered and at least put to some use if they have no use as work animals. Not every horse "deserves" life long financial support merely by virtue of being equine.

    I also laugh every time someone says "oh, I rescued my 17hh, big bodied, well bred, pretty, and sound TB from the track!". No honey, you got a good deal- you didn't "rescue" shit. That's a desirable animal who would've been sold to someone.
    absolutely



  10. #30
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    In order for horses to be used in zoos, kennels and sanctuaries they can not be euthanized chemically. The need to be put down by gunshot or captive bolt. Also in many areas you can not bury a horse that has been chemically euthanized. In fact in many areas you can't bury a horse at all. Many areas of the country don't have rendering plants anymore.



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Death is such a stranger to most of us -- we try so hard to remove ourselves from it -- and often it isn't pretty -- not for pigs or horses or people. But it IS a fact of life and that will never change. But LIFE can be pretty damn cruel as well...take a stroll through some long term care facilities one of these days....

    And banning slaughter before some workable, practical solution was in place was just plain stupid. It's a shame more people didn't speak up THEN...but they were afraid they'd be labeled cruel or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    Just like some of you probably wouldn't like me because I don't think slaughter, when done humanely, is a problem.
    A whole lot to agree with here. Daydream Believer and Nancy M to mention a few. Life has it's realities, as well put by the comment about take a look at our nursing homes for humans.

    I am not against slaughter, particularly if there was a smaller local place to drive your animal to - to avoid the stress, and if the kill was humane. After that it is just a carcass. I would prefer to do the TB thing and take the heart and head home to bury.

    Our local state horse campgrounds now 'count' the horses 'in' and the horses 'out.' You may take more out than you bring in, NOT visa versa. Some farms are finding extra animals in their pastures and now put locks on the gates.

    If you think that you are upset about what goes on in our backyard -- don't watch those tapes about Asia or other places in the world. I can never get those images out of my mind. They haunt me. But I have never been haunted about holding one of my own for the mercy that I did for a friend. I accepted that role when I took the job of the relationship and enjoyed the years of companionship.

    It does deeply sadden me that not everyone practices responsibility as a value. No easy solutions, never has been.
    The truth is what you can get other people to believe.

    -- Tommy Smothers



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    Well, I am horrified by it all, just horrified that people like this exist. But then hey, what the hell, isn't this the opinion of all the farmers out there? Your animal is only allowed to live until production stops peaking, usually WAY before their natural time.
    This is what drives me nuts -- when people like you make generalizations just to fit their emotions. My grandparents farmed and cared about their animals and treated them humanely. They had a purpose (make money, feed the family, etc.) but that doesn't mean my grandparents as farmers were heartless or like the example in this thread.

    I also live in a farming community. The farmer (who recently gave up his cows, couldn't compete against the big dairy farms) is the kindest man and took good care of his cows. He felt bad when lightning would take one out or bloat got them...and it wasn't just for financial reasons.

    I too am for the option of slaughter and am sorry that horses now are subjected to longer trips and conditions out of this country and are no longer monitored by rules and regulations in the U.S. I do agree 100% that the woman in the example in this post went way over the top and came across extremely heartless, definitely her words made me sad (calling horses "trash," etc.). But...as extremely gruesome as she worded things, she has made some realistic points. Sad ones, but true.
    "Dreams are the touchstone of our characters." Henry David Thoreau
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Well, many hotels DO allow dogs/cats. I stay in them all the time. Motel 6 for example.
    I havent stayed in a Motel 6 for a few years, but when I was out of the ones that allowed dogs they couldnt be over 30 lbs. Sure with 40lbs dogs you could be ok, but my 90lbs lab? He aint getting in there.

    Back when I was seriously poor (as opposed to now, when I am just averagely poor), I arrived in Colorado with about $50 to my name. Me and my German Shepherd dog (all 110 lbs) lived for a month in my car.
    And I would do that in a heartbeat for my dogs. Wouldnt go where they couldnt, but I dont, and from the sound of your post you dont have kids. I couldnt, nor would I except parents to force their children to live in a car to keep a dog.

    Or these people who say..."I'm moving and the landlord doesn't allow dogs/cats/ferrets/whatever." Then don't live there!! Pick another place! I've live all over this country and ALWAYS had at least one dog. Maybe I didn't live in the best places, but giving up the dog(s) was never an option.
    Not an option for me either BUT back when I was looking for an apartment for me to live in only a handful would let me take my dog. And the ones that did wanted to charge me DOUBLE rent a month to keep him there.

    Again, it depends how loyal and determined you are.
    I agree that I would never leave my dog, but its not always as simple as you or I would like it to be.
    Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
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  14. #34
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    And, it's also not unusual for someone to walk out and find a horse tied to their trailer that wasn't there when they went in.
    The young man who starts my horses told me that he went to one of the auctions to check out the tack and horse equipment. He said he saw people pulling in with horse trailers, taking the horses off, looking around to see who was watching, and then tying the horses to other people's trailers and leaving - f a s t ! ! !
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
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