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  1. #1
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    Default What a breeder SHOULDN'T be.....

    http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.c...t-of-2008.html

    Fugly posted this - and in this case she REALLY was able to help. This post is about a woman that someone at a rescue I network through my rescue with emailed regarding her low sale horse prices (just being nice). The lady responded rather rudely, and her site is just appalling - not only does she throw out horses like the trash they are (her words!) she BREEDS MORE!!!!!!!!!!!

    So glad to see that someone posted this in a public forum to get the word out there about this lady and her farm.....how atrocious. Talk about IRRESPONSIBLE breeding!!!!!!



  2. #2
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    That's truly sad. I wish I didn't read that. Some information is just too much information.
    Chris Misita
    www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
    To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
    Victor Hugo



  3. #3
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    Ah, but then we get into the whole "pro-slaughter" vs "anti-slaughter" debate.

    Personally, I think banning slaughter was the single stupidest (and cruelest) thing we have ever done to our horses here in the USA. And those chickens are coming home to roost BIG TIME now....

    Millions of dogs & cats are being put down each year because breeders are irresponsible, owners are irresponsible...yet we actually thought we were going to be able to find loving, responsible homes for some 100,000 extra HORSES every year?

    Makes you wonder what they were smoking...



  4. #4
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    Aug. 26, 2001
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    Oxford PA
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    Default

    No one accuses a cattle farmer of "irresponsible breeding" when (s)he produces cattle for the slaughter market. Horses ARE livestock, too. If someone wants to regard horses as pets & treat horses as pets, that is fine, but, legally, horses are livestock. There are many, many reasons that horses need to continue to be regarded as livestock under our laws.

    I do not agree with this woman or breed as she does or regard my horses as she does, but that does not mean I feel the need to criticize her or her choices. The feeling I get is that she has received one too many "helpful" emails & set out to shock the sender by overstating her case. She certainly succeeded, didn't she?



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evalee Hunter View Post
    <snip>... legally, horses are livestock. There are many, many reasons that horses need to continue to be regarded as livestock under our laws.
    Not in California, they're not. They are actually considered companion animals in California.

    With all the traveling we do, the one thing we found rather sad and ironic was when crossing the border into California there were several signs that said anyone abandoning a horse (I'm ad libbing here) would be prosecuted. Sad that the need has come to actually having to post signs to that affect.

    Kathy St.Martin
    Equine Reproduction Short Courses
    http://www.equine-reproduction.com
    Last edited by Equine Reproduction; Jan. 3, 2009 at 05:00 PM.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
    Not in California, they're not. They are actually considered companion animals in California.

    With all the traveling we do, the one thing we found rather sad and ironic was when crossing the border into California there were several signs that said anyone abandoning a horse (I'm ad libbing here) would be prosecuted. Sad that someone the need has come to actually have to post signs to that affect.

    Kathy St.Martin
    Equine Reproduction Short Courses
    http://www.equine-reproduction.com
    Very interesting fact. In California they also can't hunt mountain lions, so the cougars regularly attack people.

    So now the cougars can hunt horses, just like Nature intended, but I'm sure, if asked, the horse would rather face a relatively quick & painless death at a slaughter plant rather than slow starvation and then being killed by coyotes & cougars.

    Again, the gal featured on the Fugly site is certainly not going to be a role model for me, but she does make some good points.

    If we had MORE slaughter plants in the US instead of closing them all down the horses (and ALL livestock) would suffer far less than they did before and certainly less than they do now. Imagine the trip down to Mexico and their (unregulated) plants! Talk about torture.

    And now with the economy in the tank...it's only going to get worse and worse...

    What is that saying? "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

    This whole frigging mess is a perfect example. People who don't' know crap should not be able to make laws regulating the people who DO know crap....



  7. #7
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    Feb. 2, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Very interesting fact. In California they also can't hunt mountain lions, so the cougars regularly attack people.
    Actually, there have been very few attacks of cougars on people in California. However, the ones that "do" occur get lots of press. There have been less than 10 fatal attacks of mountain lions on humans in the state of California since 1890. But, as humans encroach on their territory, contact with is increasing. Edited to ad that was directly from the California Department of Fish and Game ...just didn't want you to think I made it up! <lol>.

    If we had MORE slaughter plants in the US instead of closing them all down the horses (and ALL livestock) would suffer far less than they did before and certainly less than they do now. Imagine the trip down to Mexico and their (unregulated) plants! Talk about torture.
    It's not a popular topic, but I suspect we're going to see more and more abandon animals. And, with it being so expensive in many states to euthanize and dispose of the body, I have no doubt that there will be even more. At our local horse auction, they now require sellers to leave their driver's license when bringing a horse to sell. And, it's also not unusual for someone to walk out and find a horse tied to their trailer that wasn't there when they went in. Options for horse owners that can no longer afford their animals are limited. It "is" the quintessential lose/lose situation. Really, really tragic.

    Kathy St.Martin
    Equine Reproduction Short Courses
    http://www.equine-reproduction.com



  8. #8
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Default

    In California they also can't hunt mountain lions, so the cougars regularly attack people.
    I'm sorry but that's complete bullshit.

    As for the "Queen Asshat" I think what she does is fine, she buys essentially joblots of horses from the track and sorts through them for the ones that are sound/sane enough to be riding horses and then sends the rest to the place they were headed anyway. This is called being a horse dealer and it's been a legal way to make a living for about 10,000 years. The trainers known damn well what is happening, don't kid yourself, but this way at least their nice horses get a chance. Horses are livestock and I have no problem with them being slaughtered and at least put to some use if they have no use as work animals. Not every horse "deserves" life long financial support merely by virtue of being equine.

    I also laugh every time someone says "oh, I rescued my 17hh, big bodied, well bred, pretty, and sound TB from the track!". No honey, you got a good deal- you didn't "rescue" shit. That's a desirable animal who would've been sold to someone.



  9. #9
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    Nov. 23, 2007
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    Charlotte NC
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    Default

    Unfortunately not all horses can be saved, so I would have to agree that we should have more sloughter houses, so the horses last trip wouldn't be so inhumane. I also think that each sloughter house should accept only as many horses as they can kill daily so they wouldn't have to be kept alive any longer that absolutely necessary.
    Still a better situation then starvation and neglect. And if we think this is bad now, well I think is going to become even worst in the next years between the economy and the over welmed rescue associations.



  10. #10
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    I agree that there does need to be slaughter houses but it should be done in a humane way. Now that they've outlawed slaughter in Ca. the poor horses still end up at slaughter but their torment is much worse since they are thrown on trucks, driven for days, without food or water, and then stand in blood soaked lots waiting their turn.

    As for 'Asshat', the glee she appears to get from her job is sickening. Then again, it's a job I simply couldn't do. I guess the truth is that someone needs to do it.

    As for cougars in Ca. Kathy is right that there have only been a handful of attacks since the 1890's but that they are increasing as we use more and more of the land. You can shoot these cats IF they are stalking your home or your livestock. I had one show up at my farm, so needed to do much research to learn the truth about their habits and my choices. The Fish and Game warden said I could definitely shoot him if he were stalking my horses. But he moved along and I haven't seen him again for probably 6 months.
    Chris Misita
    www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
    To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
    Victor Hugo



  11. #11
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    May. 28, 2008
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    Sussex, New Jersey
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Ah, but then we get into the whole "pro-slaughter" vs "anti-slaughter" debate.

    Personally, I think banning slaughter was the single stupidest (and cruelest) thing we have ever done to our horses here in the USA. And those chickens are coming home to roost BIG TIME now....

    Millions of dogs & cats are being put down each year because breeders are irresponsible, owners are irresponsible...yet we actually thought we were going to be able to find loving, responsible homes for some 100,000 extra HORSES every year?

    Makes you wonder what they were smoking...
    Well I'm not interested in getting into the pro- v/ anti-slaughter debate b/c I feel that no slaughter in the US certainly hasn't helped the plight of horses these days, however...in this specific case the fact that she breeds, and sends horses to slaughter, and sends horses SHE has bred to slaughter to me is just morally repugnant. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, nor am I looking to start a war, I just found Fugly's blog here interesting (and I'm not a huge Fugly fan to be honest). I do however feel that breeding while at the same time referring to the animals as trash and actively sending multiple horses to slaughter while taking no responsibility for the lives she's also creating seems idk....wrong?

    Sorry to offend anyone w/this, that was not the intention.



  12. #12
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    May. 28, 2008
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    Sussex, New Jersey
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
    Not in California, they're not. They are actually considered companion animals in California.

    With all the traveling we do, the one thing we found rather sad and ironic was when crossing the border into California there were several signs that said anyone abandoning a horse (I'm ad libbing here) would be prosecuted. Sad that the need has come to actually having to post signs to that affect.

    Kathy St.Martin
    Equine Reproduction Short Courses
    http://www.equine-reproduction.com
    Wow, Kathy, thanks for sharing - I had no idea!!!!



  13. #13
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    Jun. 21, 2004
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    Again, people need to be responsible for their animals & that means a humane end to their lives instead of a long, painful, scary trip to slaughter. I just happen to think a life is worth LOTS more that a couple hundred bucks. Lordy, if you can't afford to euthanize an animal humanely you shouldn't have it in the first place.
    I pray that maybe in the future people will start to get the message that excessive breeding & then trashing their horses is getting harder to do & we will see a decrease in this cycle.
    Opening up the slaughter plants again is not the answer to making people be responsible. It's just a way of allowing them to continue this destruction of wonderful lives.
    I'm not speaking from the top of an ivory tower. I live in farm country, all the neighbors breed cows, chickens, goats for slaughter. I work as an RN in home health in poor rural areas. I see animal abuse daily but I continue to fight it. I also see people who won't change no matter what UNLESS it hits them in their pocketbook! I mean when they actually get fined for starving or abandoning horses & find that they can't slaughter them & have to actually feed them, maybe THAT will run some of them out of business.
    Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!
    www.whitfieldfarm.shutterfly.com



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
    Actually, there have been very few attacks of cougars on people in California. However, the ones that "do" occur get lots of press. There have been less than 10 fatal attacks of mountain lions on humans in the state of California since 1890. But, as humans encroach on their territory, contact with is increasing. Edited to ad that was directly from the California Department of Fish and Game ...just didn't want you to think I made it up! <lol>.
    Yes, but here in Idaho, where cats CAN be hunted there have been exactly ZERO.

    I know I've read of at least 2 cougar attacks on humans in CA in the last year -- neither were fatal, so I guess they don't count? In one case the cat just chewed on the woman's head for awhile till two more guys pulled her body away from the cougar...so that's probably just fine.

    The point is not hunting or slaughter or anything like that -- but the point is Life is Life and not every living creature is guaranteed a lifetime of bliss and good fortune.

    Again, I'm not defending the AssHat, but this idea that has taken hold of modern western society that NOTHING should die is just stupid, not to mention not realistic. What they really mean is they don't want to watch.

    No one is forcing anyone to send their animals to slaughter or to hunt cougars, but very often the alternative is far worse if people would REALLY stop to think about it.

    We slaughter 10's of thousands of cattle, pigs, sheep, chickens, etc. and I don't see anyone getting their panties in a wad about that. If the slaughterhouses are not far away and are heavily regulated it IS a humane end for an animal...as humane as death can be.

    Certainly far, far better than transport to Mexico or being abandoned to starve to death. Boy, THAT is certainly kind, isn't it?

    I am a nurse and my speciality is geriatrics, so believe me I know of what I speak when I tell you there are far, far crueler things than death.



  15. #15
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    Apr. 23, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
    Not in California, they're not. They are actually considered companion animals in California.
    I'm not sure that that is right. There was an anti slaughter feel good proposition put on the ballet a few years ago but it didn't actually change the classification. Here's the text (now known as Penal Code section 598c)

    598c. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, it is unlawful for any person to possess, to import into or export from the state, or to sell, buy, give away, hold, or accept any horse with the intent of killing, or having another kill, that horse, if that person knows or should have known that any part of that horse will be used for human consumption.
    (b) For purposes of this section, "horse" means any equine, including any horse, pony, burro, or mule.
    (c) Violation of this section is a felony punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for 16 months, or two or three years.
    (d) It is not the intent of this section to affect any commonly accepted commercial, noncommercial, recreational, or sporting activity that relates to horses.
    (e) It is not the intent of this section to affect any existing law that relates to horse taxation or zoning.
    Unless you are thinking of something else and as a California horse owner, I would very much like to know what it is.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    We slaughter 10's of thousands of cattle, pigs, sheep, chickens, etc. and I don't see anyone getting their panties in a wad about that.
    LOL You have obviously never heard of PETA or most vegans
    Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
    http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitfield Farm Hanoverians View Post
    Again, people need to be responsible for their animals & that means a humane end to their lives instead of a long, painful, scary trip to slaughter. I just happen to think a life is worth LOTS more that a couple hundred bucks. Lordy, if you can't afford to euthanize an animal humanely you shouldn't have it in the first place.
    I pray that maybe in the future people will start to get the message that excessive breeding & then trashing their horses is getting harder to do & we will see a decrease in this cycle.
    Opening up the slaughter plants again is not the answer to making people be responsible. It's just a way of allowing them to continue this destruction of wonderful lives.
    I'm not speaking from the top of an ivory tower. I live in farm country, all the neighbors breed cows, chickens, goats for slaughter. I work as an RN in home health in poor rural areas. I see animal abuse daily but I continue to fight it. I also see people who won't change no matter what UNLESS it hits them in their pocketbook! I mean when they actually get fined for starving or abandoning horses & find that they can't slaughter them & have to actually feed them, maybe THAT will run some of them out of business.
    I really, really, really, want to agree with you as I do think eventually the cream could rise to the top and the folks who shouldn't be breeding WOULD MAYBE QUIT.

    Unfortunately I don't think this will happen before hundreds of thousands of horses suffer, if it happens at all. I think the reality is that a horse is a large livestock animal and we need horse slaughtering facilities IN THE USA. And the regulations already in place need to be enforced, TO THE LETTER!

    I know this is an emotional issue. I love horses, but I also think horse owners should have a choice. This anti-slaughter campaign has NOT helped the horse AT ALL.



  18. #18
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    One can get into terrible long discussions and disagreements about semantics and if horses are livestock or companions and whether or not they should be eaten, slaughtered, or not...whatever. Lots of would have's, should have's and could have's in how things have been handled in regards to the slaughter industry. The truth is that they are shut down in the US...the last three plants...and opening them back up or creating even more is a very unlikely event. Why should they when they can just stuff them in double deckers and ship them without coggins or health papers or stops for rest or water from all over the US to feed lots? No law against that as you can still use double deckers for any horse shipping other than directly to slaughter. What little protection horses had before ended when the slaughter plants were closed inside our borders. After a period of time in the living hell of the feed lots with no vet care, shelter, or kindness, then stuff them into another double decker and haul them across the borders to slaughter houses owned by the same folks who operated in Texas and Illinois. More horses than ever before go through this ordeal.

    They have even less regulation than before now operating in other countries and with the poor economy a nice selection of fat, young and cheap horses to pick from. The old, thin, sick and weak are left behind and abandoned or hopefully put down by someone at the sales. In some places, the meat market has totally dried up due to the distances to ship horses and in others, it's still very active.

    So that is reality right now and not fantasy. Horses suffer terribly...much worse than before and as long as it's legal to ship them over the borders in sealed slaughter trucks without coggins or health papers, there will be no stopping it nor convincing anyone to come back and set up plants in the US. Why continue to pretend that it will ever go back to what it was before? It won't and no amount of complaining about the current situation will change that until the borders are closed. Then do you really think the kill plants will come back in and set up again? I think it's extremely unlikely given the popular sentiment against killing horses.

    My leanings are the same as Whitfield. I would love to see the foal mill operations shut down...those who breed everything with a uterus and no attempt at careful selective breeding. These creeps, like the one in Fugly's blog (and I'm no fan of hers either) continue to operate like this because they are rewarded for it. People will not change until they are forced to. Until they have no where to dump their ill bred unhandled wild horses.



  19. #19
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    Jan. 14, 2003
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    I am an AVID horse person, but I have never understood the distinction between cattle and horses. Calves can be damned cute and would make pets if handled they way many folks handle horses. Pigs are a good bit smarter than horses but when we think of pigs we think of bacon or ham, not of the personality that we are snuffing out when they get slaughtered for consumption.

    I agree that breeders need to start limiting their breeding to their best animals to reduce the market glut. But humane slaughter is a good option for animals that cannot have a job or a retirement home.

    And YES I would feed my dogs horse meat if it were clean, healthy and readily available. In fact, if horse meat were the only food available to me, you BET that I would eat it too.

    All animals that we consume should be "appreciated" for their sacrifice.

    We raise goats as meat and as pets. The ones that go for meat live a great life--good feed, ample pasture, fresh air. Their trip to the slaughter house is very short (about 15 minutes). I feel much better about this than any meat in the grocery store.
    Chris
    Ladybug Hill--Hunters and Ponies
    WWSD? (what would Suerte do?)



  20. #20
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    Mar. 28, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by silver2 View Post
    I also laugh every time someone says "oh, I rescued my 17hh, big bodied, well bred, pretty, and sound TB from the track!". No honey, you got a good deal- you didn't "rescue" shit. That's a desirable animal who would've been sold to someone.
    Agree 100%. I've had a lot of horses off the track. Not one of them was a rescue and yes, they were all great deals.
    The term 'rescue' is way over used.



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