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  1. #1
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    Default Need some feeding help...8 month old foal

    Hey all! Its been a while....Pilsner is going to be 8 months old on Christmas! I cant believe it...we of course still miss his dam...RIP DJ, but he is doing well without her...

    Here is my problem. He is TOO SKINNY! I prefer foals to be on the thin side so when I say he is thin...he is thin. He is not a big hay eater...but he has free choice Timothy hay...but probably only eats about 15 pounds of that a day...he is out on pasture but its dead from the drought so he has the hay outside too...

    He is eating Nutrena XTN...its 12% protein and he is on Conform Aid as a preventive. He is pretty big...and I am trying desperately not to increase his grain...but vet wants me too.. right now he is getting (dont cringe!) 2.5 pounds of XTN twice a day. for those who dont weigh, its a half a 2 qt scoop 2x a day.

    Any ideas to increase weight without increasing grain?
    PROUD MEMBER OF THE \"OMGiH I LOFF MY MARE\" CLIQUE



  2. #2
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    Mar. 28, 2006
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    Oregon
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    Default

    I'm such a big fan of Purina Equine Junior that I think they should hire me to be their spokesperson!! LOL

    Seriously though, I am NOT a fan of Nutrena. I have never had good results with it. With the Eq Jr, my babies look gorgeous, all the time. Because it is a complete feed (ie you don't HAVE to feed hay with it, though we DO), they don't seem to get the downside of feeding "grain" per se, but all the benefits of being in beautiful, good health. We also feed probiotics (Fastrack) and deworm our babies monthly. This has been very successful for us.

    And the babies all eat the Equine Junior SUPER well -- nobody, not even the pickiest eater, ever turns up their nose at it.

    Good luck with your little guy!!
    Family Partners Welsh Ponies - Home of Section B Welsh stallion *Wedderlie Mardi Gras LOM/AOE http://www.welshponies.com
    Click here to buy: A Guide To In Hand Showing of Your Welsh Pony



  3. #3
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    Aug. 28, 2006
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    Default

    If he were mine -- paste worm Equimax then put on Strongid C for a couple of months to see if that helps.

    What about alfalfa with phosphorus supplement?
    Last edited by grayarabpony; Dec. 23, 2008 at 10:55 PM.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2005
    Location
    McMinnville, Oregon
    Posts
    312

    Question

    Rideagoldenpony,

    I see you are in Oregon. I am too. I'm glad you've had success with Purina Eq. Jr. I had two weanlings on it but one of them was struggling with some physitis issues. Of course, as I learned about the "evils" of grain with babies, I was advised by some other breeder friends to put them on a ration balancer only, so they are now (as yearlings) on LMF Super Supplement, which is formulated specifically for the NW. They get only that and grass hay and it truly has been awesome how well they do on it. In the future I would be willing to try out the Eq. Jr. again. Maybe I wasn't feeding it in the right amounts. I was also adding an add'l vitamin, which in retrospect was likely not the right thing to do. Have you heard about others with success on the LMF? Do you follow the instructions on the bag for the amounts you give your babies?

    www.foxdalefarm.us



  5. #5
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    Mar. 4, 2008
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    Birmingham, AL
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    Default

    That feed was not originally designed for foals to the best of my knowledge. It was for hard keepers or hard workers that need a lot of fat to maintain weight. Perhaps they have adjusted the formula. Regardless, a foal this age should be on a 14% protein formula. They are growing, growing, growing. Fat calories will support general energy needs but he needs quality protein and in sufficient quantity to grow and build muscle. Do you have access to Triple Crown? TC Growth is 14% protein, with 10% fat plus yeast, probiotics, etc. In our area we only have Purina, Nutrina and a few of the TC formulas but perhaps you have other brands to choose from that are designed for babies.

    I see that Nutrena recommends .5-1 lb of XTN per 100 lb of weight for weanlings. I would imagine your colt weighs more than 500 lb. at 8 months so feeding him 5 lbs. a day isn't excessive according to their recommendations. I feed about that much of TC Growth to my 6 month old filly who was growing fast and she has lost weight so I am bumping her up a bit now. I haven't weighed her recently but she must be approaching 600 lbs. now.

    I'm not familiar with Conform Aid. I wouldn't freak out about 5 lbs. of this feed that has beet pulp in it. It's not like he is getting 5 lbs. of all grain, some of that could be classified as forage. TC Growth also has beet pulp in it.
    Altamont Sport Horses
    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
    Birmingham, AL



  6. #6
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    Jun. 17, 2002
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    USA
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    996

    Default

    Nutrena Youth with the XTN



  7. #7
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    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Charles Town, WV
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    Default

    12% protein is NOT enough for a growing youngster. They need PROTEIN in order to build muscle. Put him on a ration balancer and follow the directions on the bag for age and final weight. The only way you can get enough protein in him for growth with a 12% feed is to give him about 5 lbs twice a day. That's NOT the way to raise a growing foal. You don't want to give him too much concentrates, but you DO have to give him the right composition of concentrates.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  8. #8
    Join Date
    May. 14, 2004
    Location
    North Carolina
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    1,371

    Default

    Hi Julie,

    I, too, have one this year that is way too thin. The other 6 are just fine. I would consider possibly( knowing Buddy's history) that he might hae an ulcer. That is whatis wrong with mine. I put him on a feed through Ulcer med and he gained weight.
    If you want, you can email me or call, we can have one of our "discussions" LOL!

    Maryanna Haymon
    www.marydellfarm.com
    2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 1, 2005
    Location
    Northern California
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    1,663

    Default

    Mine are on Purina Enrich 32 (Born To Win).

    I was using Nutrena Youth but have switched (thanks to some help from Clint) to the RB. I wish I'd put them on on 32 from the beginning. Mine are VERY easy keepers though and don't get much grain at all. I like all the vitamin and minerals in the 32 and I put the labels side by side adn compared all the differences first.

    It was a toss-up between the 32 and the LMF.
    Cloverfox Stables



  10. #10
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    Jun. 28, 2003
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    KY, USA
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    Default

    I'd go to 16% mare & foal. We think the pelleted versions are more pallatable, so I'd use pelleted. And I'd give him significantly more than you're feeding. as long as he is turned out most of the time, getting good exercise, and is cleaning up his feed.

    And I'd change to 50% alfalfa hay if that's possible.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan. 25, 2003
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    95

    Default Fat supplement

    I agree, the higher levels of protein are necessary for growing young ones. I learned with my mare while she's been pregnant and was prone to tying up but also a VERY picky eater, about using Amplify (from Purina). There are other similar products- Gro N Win from Buckeye, and K Finish From Kalmbach feeds (they are local graineries here in ohio) that I have used. Amplify is a 30% fat, while the others are 25%. They are extruded feeds so they're in little nuggets. My mare is still getting three pounds per day, but she's a hard keeper, and if my foal needs it, I will put him on it too. It is great because its really high concentrationof fat (and pretty cost effective feed) without adding the calories from sugars. Great for those with PSSM/EPSM too!



  12. #12
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    Default

    Ok...lets talk about protein for a second....the Youth that he was on was 16%. He was not holding weight with that at all...and was requiring even more grain which is why we decided to go with the XTN instead. He was already eating some of that because that is what mom ate before she died. His dam was also a hard keeper. I know that everyone has dismissed the idea that high protein levels cause OCD etc. but why is it that if physitis is feared, one of the first recommendations is to lower the protein?
    PROUD MEMBER OF THE \"OMGiH I LOFF MY MARE\" CLIQUE



  13. #13
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    Mar. 4, 2008
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    Birmingham, AL
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Castlegate View Post
    Ok...lets talk about protein for a second....the Youth that he was on was 16%. He was not holding weight with that at all...and was requiring even more grain which is why we decided to go with the XTN instead. He was already eating some of that because that is what mom ate before she died. His dam was also a hard keeper. I know that everyone has dismissed the idea that high protein levels cause OCD etc. but why is it that if physitis is feared, one of the first recommendations is to lower the protein?
    The Youth formula you mentioned...who makes that? Is it high quality 16%? I'm not a nutrition guru but learning more and more every day. From what I understand, 16% protein can be crude protein but not necessarily complete protein or perhaps not diverse in the amino acids contained within. If certain amino acids are missing, for example, he can't use all the protein in the feed. Amino acids are the "building blocks" of protein and there are something like 20 different amino acids. Essential amino acids are those that the body cannot make itself (differs by organism). When certain amino acids are missing from the diet the body will use it's own muscle, etc. to try to synthesize the amino acid itself. And it can't build more muscle if the amino acid is missing or unable to be synthesized.

    My youngsters also get a little bit of alfalfa to increase the protein intake. I don't know if it has changed but when I went through CSU's equine breeding series they recommended 16% protein for the first year of life and that is what I strive for. I take them down to 14% at 1 year of age.

    Does your horse have physitis? I thought that they get this when they grow way too fast or too heavy as in fatter than their frame can support. If so, that is why you want to reduce protein, to slow the growth. How tall is your boy and how much does he weigh right now? If he had physitis I would think your vet would not have suggested upping his feed.
    Altamont Sport Horses
    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
    Birmingham, AL



  14. #14
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    Jul. 5, 2002
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    FL
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    Default

    Many vets (who are not nutritionists) will recommend cutting back to hay and water with physitis. That is what my vet recommended back in 1998 with a colt and that colt ended up a walking disaster.

    Growing horses need protein, the right amino acids, the right balance of minerals for correct growth. I am a believer in ration balancers. I learned the hard way with the '98 colt. Over the years since then, I have used Buckeye's, Seminole's, Triple Crown's and am now using Progressive Nutrition's balancer. If I have a youngster that has funky looking joints, I will cut any carbs that it is getting and be certain that it is getting enough balancer. That method has been completely successful and (knock wood) I have not had problems since going to a ration balancer based feeding program.

    I had a filly in 2006 that was a bit thin coming into her yearling year (about the same age as your youngster). I tried her on a week of Gastrogard and she was improving, so we did a full month. I weaned her off the GG and added tractgard to her diet and she has been an easy keeper since then. She is now coming three, nicely developed and almost 16.3 hands.

    I would try an ulcer treatment for a week and see if you see an improvement. I'd also put the baby on a good ration balancer at the amount recommended for its age with a fat supplement (Buckeye, Progressive, Triple Crown all make good ones).



  15. #15
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    Aug. 26, 2003
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    Joliette, QC, Canada
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    Default

    I second what was said about the right protein needed to build muscles. Also make sure your worming schedule is up to date.

    I think I will never stop to learn and search for the right feeding. I too have an orphan; my vet came and was satisfied with her weight and overall shape.

    You really have to check on the feeding bag for the % of Lysine.

    Good luck and hope for the best for your little one !
    Élène

    Fighting ovarian cancer ! 2013 huge turnaround as I am winning the battle !..
    http://esergerie.wordpress.com



  16. #16
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    Default

    Thanks for the feedback..he was on nutrena youth (that was the 16 percent) and dealer isn't carrying it anymore. No, he does not have psytitis...I was just asking why some associate that with protein. He has done a course of ulcer meds about 2 months ago...but I don't mind trying it again...
    PROUD MEMBER OF THE \"OMGiH I LOFF MY MARE\" CLIQUE



  17. #17

    Default

    Buckeye Gro'nWin is GREAT! Cal/Phos must be the right ratio. It's 32% protein but protein is NOT what causes ephitis. The amount you give isn't enough to harm them. Only enough to supplement from the unlimited grass hay they're supposed to eat at this age. It's the wrong ratio of cal/phos and sugars in the feed that cuase ocd and dod issues.

    Google ephipitis and OCD.



  18. #18
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    The conform aid is the calcium phosphorus supplement....
    PROUD MEMBER OF THE \"OMGiH I LOFF MY MARE\" CLIQUE



  19. #19
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    Jun. 28, 2003
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    Default

    Concur emphatically re: Calcium/Phosphorus balance. That's one of the main reasons to add alfalfa.

    I don't worry (much -- I worry about everything) about physitis, extreme growth, etc., unless the foal is confined and/or shows signs. For foals that are turned out (which is where they belong), particularly with others their age so they can exercise and roughouse, I'll feed 'em all they will eat until they tell me otherwise.

    How do they tell me? Overweight, sore, sour, lazy, poor condition especially hooves and hair.



  20. #20
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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