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  1. #1
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    Default The soy/nutrition thread has me thinking, can I ask some ???

    I love learning about nutrition, always trying to do better. I've got it down with the dogs....I feed Nature's Variety Raw (complete raw food) and use Nupro as my vitamin supplement.

    I do believe in wholisitic as possible, but I'm not as horse nutrition savvy as I need to be.

    I have a 7 year old Han/TB mare who is in moderate work (jumping)...she did have colic surgery in 2004..no dead tissue. She has to be carefully managed in her diet....Legends pellets have sent her into two life threatening colics in her 7 years....she does do well on Progressive.

    She has a very rotund mid section and needs muscling...I do give her as much hay as she wants during the day (I board my two)..it is a timothy mix...not sure what it's nutrition values are...as we get different shipments in regularly. She gets 2 big flakes in the field at night...each flake weighs approx. 3 pounds

    Here's her current diet...
    AM.... Half pound of Progressive Sr.
    Daily Dewormer (barn program)
    1.5 scoops Linpro
    1.5scoops Quiessence (will cut in half eventually)
    .5 Tractguard
    1/2 cup Flax


    Lunch 2 pounds of beet pulp (weighed before water added)
    Handful of alfalfa cubes
    1.5 Linpro
    1.5 Quiessence
    .5 Tractguard
    2 scoops of Foxden Muscle Mix (just started last week)

    PM Half Pound Progressive Sr
    1.5 Linpro
    1.5 Quiessence
    .5 Tractguard
    1/2 cup flax

    Coat looks good, she has good energy...but just has that darn big gut...should I just cut the grain altogether?????????? I really hate to cut back on her forage



    Horse 2. TB, age 18ish

    AM 1.5 pounds of Progressive Sr. (he's not crazy about this)but adding flax helps him eat
    Daily Dewormer
    1.5 scoops Linpro
    3/4 scoop Quiessence
    .5 Tractguard
    1/2 cup Flax

    Lunch.... 2 pounds beet pulp (weighed before wet
    1.5 Linpro
    3/4 scoop Quiessence
    .5 Tractguard
    Lubriysn dose
    Keraflex
    1 scoop of Muscle Mix (Foxden told me to go easy on this with him, might make him loopy)


    PM 1.5 Pounds Progressive Sr.
    1.5 Linpro
    3/4 Quiessence
    .5 Tractguard
    1/2 cup Flax

    All the hay he wants while in duriing the day...and 2 big flakes in the field at night. ...each flake weights approx. 3 pounds

    He looks good, I have no complaints...other than he would prefer something else than the pelleted Sr.....but anything textured makes him nutty. He does not care for alfalfa cubes either....but will SNARF down the beet pulp. I've thought about switching him to Blue Seal Sr.

    Does this plan look good to the nutrition gurus or could I do anything better???

    I've thought about adding in Rice bran for the gelding...mainly for patalbility...he's been on it before and it ddin't make him loopy. He was on Envision for awhile, but started snubbing it....I was told by the feedstore owner that this isn't uncommon.



  2. #2
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    Jan. 16, 2002
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    Default

    Sounds like you're happy and your horses are doing well. Why change? Sometimes a short-coupled horse just has a round belly--as long as she's performing well and healthy, I wouldn't personally go chasing after that little issue.

    As always, what's in the hay?
    Click here before you buy.



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Sounds like you're happy and your horses are doing well. Why change? Sometimes a short-coupled horse just has a round belly--as long as she's performing well and healthy, I wouldn't personally go chasing after that little issue.

    As always, what's in the hay?

    The hay is timothy mix....but I cannot take hay samples every month to be analyzed.....We have 40 plus horses at the barn, and we get a new shipment in monthly....and sometimes, it's two different cuttings in one shipment.

    I am simply asking because you never know what you might learn. I would like some suggestions on what I should do or even cut out to help the mare tone down her midsection.



  4. #4
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    Default

    I;m not sure what kind of management she needs due to the colic, but what I notice is this:
    Progressive Senior is a complete feed and she is getting very little of it. Why not skip the linpro and progressive senior and use a PN ration balancer? The PN RB has the right kind of protein to help with muscling and topline and will give her all the vitamins and minerals she needs as well.
    "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

    "...you'll never win Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a warmblood..." see u at x



  5. #5
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    What is the mare's body condition score? I've never had much luck getting a horse with a round belly that's an ISOLATED thing to lose that tendency, but maybe other people will have some suggestions. I'm pretty much into simple: more work for better muscle and fitness, not starting with the feed but with the amount of and type of exercise the animal is getting.
    Click here before you buy.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stacie View Post
    I;m not sure what kind of management she needs due to the colic, but what I notice is this:
    Progressive Senior is a complete feed and she is getting very little of it. Why not skip the linpro and progressive senior and use a PN ration balancer? The PN RB has the right kind of protein to help with muscling and topline and will give her all the vitamins and minerals she needs as well.
    You know..you are right..we used to have her on the Grass Balancer before I moved barns....then we fed the barnfeed....aka Legends and she colicked again..that's why I went the Sr. route.

    I think when I finish out these last few bags, I'll go back to the Grass Balancer.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    What is the mare's body condition score? I've never had much luck getting a horse with a round belly that's an ISOLATED thing to lose that tendency, but maybe other people will have some suggestions. I'm pretty much into simple: more work for better muscle and fitness, not starting with the feed but with the amount of and type of exercise the animal is getting.
    She's in full training, jumps at least 3 days a week.

    I haven't had her scored..DW. Some people think she looks fine, others think she's heavy...I fall somewhere in between......I don't want her to get heavy, so to speak.

    And maybe as Stacie has pointed out to me.....going back the the Grass Balancer might be helpful.



  8. #8
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    I like feeding as little processed as possible and would not feed any grain to a previous colic horse. I would try more alfalfa or up the BP.

    Why don't you give it a try to see what you get? It often only takes a couple of weeks to a month to see changes.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToRide View Post
    I like feeding as little processed as possible and would not feed any grain to a previous colic horse. I would try more alfalfa or up the BP.

    Why don't you give it a try to see what you get? It often only takes a couple of weeks to a month to see changes.
    I agree with you about the grain....the only reason I have kept it at all is because I can only get Beet Pulp pellets...with a barn of 40 horses, I just can't expect the staff to remember or have time to soak Beet Pulp an hour or more before feeding. That's why I've been giving it as their lunch and minimizing her grain to 1 pound a day...basically giving her something to have her supplements with.



  10. #10
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    I know it is a pain. I am still hoping to eventually find some shredded BP without molasses Still it would probably be good to at least rinse that stuff too, just in case.

    You could always just use hay or alfalfa pellets as a carrier for supplements. That's what I do with my two geldings - one is in IR mini and the other prone to mild EPSM symptoms and becoming too hyper on anything too rich. He's jumpy enough just by his old self - need no more excitement than that



  11. #11
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    Body condition score is a very simple "do it yourself" thing.

    Beet pulp pelletes are icky. My horses won't touch 'em no matter how long they're soaked.
    Click here before you buy.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Body condition score is a very simple "do it yourself" thing.

    Beet pulp pelletes are icky. My horses won't touch 'em no matter how long they're soaked.

    She's got a hay belly DW...I'm simply looking to see if anyone here has any diet suggestions. Mine love beet pulp, yours don't know what they are missing.



  13. #13
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    Oh, mine love beet pulp, too, but not the pellet kind. Shreds only.
    Click here before you buy.



  14. #14
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    Default

    I presume the Muscle Mix is an amino acid supplement? That may do the trick.



  15. #15
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    I don't remember her ever having a belly.

    What is her turnout like? Is she maybe getting a lot of exposure to parasites? Did she get PP'd this fall? I often think horses on daily dewormer have that look... barns who use it tend to not deworm as much thinking they "have it covered" well - it is only one class of dewormer and it's the one there is the most resistance to food for thought, huh?

    Otherwise, I'd put her back on what she ate at FF. She looked good. I think she got mostly diet balancer, right? I'd put that back up, drop the LinPro, add back the Envision, keep the Quiessence if she needs it for the Magnesium. If she is truly having an issue with coarse hay you could try a month of Equipride and see if that helps, I did a short trial on it w/3 of my horses and one who tended to get that look it did change. It's a digestive aid so you get the idea.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  16. #16
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    Does she have a lot of fat on the shoulder, a ridge/defined valley along her topline, fat near her tail head, fat creases on her neck? This should give you an idea of how fat she is or if she has a hay belly. The scoring is easy to do, just look it up online. If it is hay belly maybe she isn't moving forage through as proficiently as she should. If so she needs some probiotics to help digest the forage better. I believe this can be a problem when a horse is fed a daily dewormer.

    The senior is not being given in sufficient quantity to offer her much nutrition especially since it does contain a good bit of forage. If she likes alfalfa or oats and you need to give her something to help her eat her supplements a little bit of alfalfa pellets or oats. I wouldn't drop the LinPro, etc. right now. Try one change at a time and see what makes a difference. If she isn't fat I would personally start with the probiotics. If she is fat I'd cut the Senior feed.
    Altamont Sport Horses
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    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
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  17. #17
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    Eq....Robin mentioned calling you to have you come look at her horse in Jan.....I told her that I'd take a lesson with you too.....I'll get you to look at her.

    I honestly didn't powerpak this fall because Fernando told me to do it in the Spring. He said to keep mine on the daily dewormer, ivermection 2x per year, and Powerpak in the spring.

    I think I'll finish up the Sr and go back to the Diet Balancer.

    She looks really good to me, just not in shape in her belly area, I'll try to take some pics tomorrow.

    No fat pads on the top or on the shoulders...just belly. One vet said..."She has a big barrel and could lose some weight".



  18. #18
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    I've seen "hay bellies" respond really well to probiotics. I've jumpstarted with ProBios paste and then used MannaPros probiotic granules and it's worked really well.
    Does your daily wormer address tape worms? If not, you might worm for tape, as well.
    "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

    "...you'll never win Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a warmblood..." see u at x



  19. #19
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    So... according to her new deworming program, she doesn't get dewormed for tapes

    *If* I had a horse on daily dewormer (and you know how I feel about that!) I would keep them on a regular strict rotation. The concept that you do not have to deworm otherwise but twice a year is very suspect IMO.... particularly if the farm they are at has been on it for a long time and only deworms twice a year. I shudder to consider the resistance and parasite load hanging around farms that have done that for years.....

    Dewormer is cheap and considering the colics, probably the best place to start besides changing the senior feed.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    So... according to her new deworming program, she doesn't get dewormed for tapes

    *If* I had a horse on daily dewormer (and you know how I feel about that!) I would keep them on a regular strict rotation. The concept that you do not have to deworm otherwise but twice a year is very suspect IMO.... particularly if the farm they are at has been on it for a long time and only deworms twice a year. I shudder to consider the resistance and parasite load hanging around farms that have done that for years.....

    Dewormer is cheap and considering the colics, probably the best place to start besides changing the senior feed.
    Here's where my confusion comes in......I DID take her off the daily dewormer...and started back with the rotation.....Fernando told me to go back to the daily dewomer...ivermection 2xs a year and power pak in the spring.

    I did have fecals done in October and they were clean......that's when he and I had the daily dewormer conversation (I had just decided to take them off and go back to paste dewormer).



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