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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Indiana
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    11,081

    Default looking for grain without: oats, molasses, flax, or timothy

    Difficult to feed horse will not keep weight on and has some allergies. Needs to be low sugar and tasty as he's a bit of a diva. Also very ulcer prone. HE gets gastro and rantidine for the ulcers but his owner would like to figure out a good feed balance to make the ulcer meds go away. Still has ulcers despite multiple gastro treatements so it has to be feed related.

    He gets hyper on: legends pellets, triple crown complete, blue seal vintage victory, blue seal vintage senior,and rice bran. Does not like beet pulp. Had a colic relapse on Omegatin

    He is currently eating: 3 quarts measured dry then soaked beet pulp w/out molasses, 1 cup soaked flax, 1/4 cup hemp seed oil. He find it gross and does not eat it. He also eats 15 pounds of alfalfa, allergic to timothy and orchard grass.

    He can stay with what he's on if there is a tasty add in to get him to eat it, any suggestions would be appreciated.
    Last edited by enjoytheride; Jan. 18, 2009 at 09:48 PM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2007
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    8,196

    Default

    Alfalfa pellets? Beet pulp?
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2002
    Location
    Indiana
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    11,081

    Default

    He currently HATES beet pulp and just alfalfa pellets are not enough because he is a hard keeper.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2007
    Location
    Illinois, USA
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    8,196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    He currently HATES beet pulp and just alfalfa pellets are not enough because he is a hard keeper.
    Sorry, I didn't see the beet pulp part. I'm a bit out of ideas.. good luck!
    Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2008
    Posts
    4,266

    Default

    Is there too much sugar in carrots? You could buy them by the crate and grate them into the food to make it yummier.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 8, 2004
    Posts
    36

    Default

    I'd send an email to the major producers (Nutrena, Buckeye etc.) and ask them for suggestions. In the meantime I'd lean toward developing a mix with my vet's help. A long time ago I had a horse that I just couldn't keep weight on. I mixed alfalfa pellets, rolled barley and cracked corn in equal amounts by weight, worked great and lovely coat on him. Since there's been a ton of new research since I used that mix, I would run it past a vet to see if they had other suggestions. I would not suggest alfalfa cubes - I believe there are some concerns with their ability to chew/swallow those. Good luck.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Indiana
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    Default

    The current mix was suggested by the vet before the allergy for flax came back. He doesn't really eat it and the goal is to elimate the allergins in order of severity until he is at a balance point.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2008
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
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    Default

    Maybe he doesn't like wet food...many of mine don't. Have you tried a feed that has beet pulp in it and doesn't require soaking?

    You mention that he was hyper on rice bran. Was that the processed and stabilized rice bran which usually has about 20% fat or the non-stabilized rice bran which has more NSC and is closer to 12% fat? And when he ate that was he also eating anything else that could have been making him hyper?

    Does he eat any other type forage other than alfalfa? Maybe he isn't keeping enough food in his gut at all times. The way mine suck down alfalfa hay, 15 lbs. would not last long and they would be sitting around for hours waiting for more forage. And of course that could contribute to the stomach problems.

    He gets GastroG *and* Ranitidine? I've not heard of doing that. I'm not a vet but I wonder if his stomach problems are not improving because the ulcer treatment is too aggressive. You don't want to totally wipe out all stomach acid or the food can't be properly digested. That or the body reacts by producing even more acid.

    Is he getting any vitamin and mineral supplement? I put my hardkeeping TB on a magnesium supplement to help chill him out (Quiessence). He is so chill that I am backing down on his feed a bit because he is picking up weight and I don't want him to get chunky now. I NEVER thought I would be in that situation. Actually, he already started to chill out when I started giving him a general vit/min supplement. Apparently he was deficient and wasn't getting enough from his "balanced" feed.

    Is he allergic to oats or does it just make him hyper? Can he eat Barley?

    Has he been PowerPak'd in the last year and does he get pre/probiotics?

    Does he have any stall vices? Does he pace in turnout?
    Altamont Sport Horses
    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
    Birmingham, AL



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 20, 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    597

    Default

    Have you tried boiled barley?

    When it boils down, it becomes quite soft, and a little squishy, and his very easy to eat.

    I'm not sure how much sugar is in it, but I wouldn't think there was much.

    We used it for my dad's horse. We boiled a dry cup, until it was split and soft, and added it to 2 scoops lucerne and 2 scoops oaten chaff, and you cant even feel her ribs anymore: http://www.fivesevens.com then click on 'Shiraz and the bottom of the list. (the bottom picture scrolls down)

    She looks heaps better than that last one, and she has a 'normal' coat now, and is all shiny with dapples and such.

    Still needs build up on her withers, but that needs hill work, but she can't do to much because she has nerve damage in her 5th and 6th vertebrae.

    But I would consult a vet first.

    Or, you could send a mane sample to this lady: http://www.thehorseherbalist.com and she will pinpoint what is going on, and what to feed him.

    We sent some of Shiraz's mane to her, and she told us she had a very good life until she was 5, the had a shitty life between 5 and 15, and has had a decent life for the past couple of years, which is when we found her.

    She also told us that she had nerve damage, just by looking at the mane follicles.

    So I'd give her a go.

    But good luck on finding something that will make him more comfortable.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 31, 2004
    Location
    VA
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    Default

    My responses in bold:

    Maybe he doesn't like wet food...many of mine don't. Have you tried a feed that has beet pulp in it and doesn't require soaking?
    Some, but it's difficult to find without the other ingredients that cause digestive upset.

    You mention that he was hyper on rice bran. Was that the processed and stabilized rice bran which usually has about 20% fat or the non-stabilized rice bran which has more NSC and is closer to 12% fat? And when he ate that was he also eating anything else that could have been making him hyper?
    Stabilized rice bran, foods very rich in it and the rice bran itself both seemed to make him more hyper- prety certain that was what caused it.

    Does he eat any other type forage other than alfalfa? Maybe he isn't keeping enough food in his gut at all times. The way mine suck down alfalfa hay, 15 lbs. would not last long and they would be sitting around for hours waiting for more forage. And of course that could contribute to the stomach problems.
    He has been eating free choice grass hay in addition to the alfalfa, however the grasses that he's not allergic to aren't available in hay here, so right now he gets less of it. I have tried free choice timothy, free choice orchard, free choice timothy and 10 lb alfalfa, more alfalfa, etc. Prominent vet suggested all alfalfa but I'm hesitant- it's not too common in the area to feed it exclusively and it seems too rich to be the only source of forage.

    He gets GastroG *and* Ranitidine? I've not heard of doing that. I'm not a vet but I wonder if his stomach problems are not improving because the ulcer treatment is too aggressive. You don't want to totally wipe out all stomach acid or the food can't be properly digested. That or the body reacts by producing even more acid.
    Horse didn't respond to the last course of gastrogard/sucralfate, so we're trying the ranitidine now. This is our 9th time treating for ulcers, 4 scopes, always used gastrogard.

    Is he getting any vitamin and mineral supplement? I put my hardkeeping TB on a magnesium supplement to help chill him out (Quiessence). He is so chill that I am backing down on his feed a bit because he is picking up weight and I don't want him to get chunky now. I NEVER thought I would be in that situation. Actually, he already started to chill out when I started giving him a general vit/min supplement. Apparently he was deficient and wasn't getting enough from his "balanced" feed.
    He has been on platinum performance for a long time, which never did much for his stomach but had him looking great otherwise. Right now he is on optimum from theracell, I'm trying to reduce the amount of chemicals and processed food going into him, and it seems like that would be less irritating. He also gets their calming type supplement, equilibrium.

    Is he allergic to oats or does it just make him hyper? Can he eat Barley?
    Allergic to oats, they don't seem to make him fresh though. He can eat barley and I plan to add some into his ration to see if that makes it more tasty.

    Has he been PowerPak'd in the last year and does he get pre/probiotics?
    He had a powerpac 6 weeks ago. I have tried probiotics but took him off when he was on the elimination diet. I can add them again, but never saw a huge improvement.

    Does he have any stall vices? Does he pace in turnout?
    He sometimes goes into fits. It's a strange thing, generally when he's in the barn by himself, and he'll scream and go completely out of his mind. It's not so much herd bound as being by himself in the barn, since you can take him from horses in the barn and that is OK. Those fits cause him to poop 5-6 times in the span of 15 minutes. Times like that, when he is worked up, he'll stall walk all night. He's pretty active in the stall in general though, churns it up. In turnout he's generally calm, doesn't graze as much as I'd like to see. He has a round bale now that he will munch on.
    -Grace



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2007
    Location
    Camden, DE
    Posts
    1,948

    Default

    I feed my TB Vintage Performance LS by Blue Seal. I think it lacks all the mentioned ingredients in the OP. Might want to double check though...

    I've been happy with it.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug. 29, 2006
    Location
    Unionville PA
    Posts
    197

    Default

    My horse is on layup and gets very little grain(also has soy allergies), hence a lot more beet pulp than he is used to (unsweetened). He was leaving food sometimes, he is not thrilled. As he gets meds in there to calm him so he can go out, it is important he eat it, and I have recently made a change which he seems to like:

    I use George's aloe as I think he gets ulcery on limited turnout. I added some peppermint tea bags to the aloe which makes it a peppermint flavor, so when mixed with the feed, it is mildly peppermint flavored(peppermint is also good for digestive issues). Since I have done this, he cleans up his food.

    Try it, or even just flavor the beet pulp as it is soaking with a peppermint teabag(no caffeine) and then remove the tea bags.

    Weird, but it is working - if the horse likes peppermint, that is.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul. 18, 2005
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    590

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kwilhide View Post
    My horse is on layup and gets very little grain(also has soy allergies), hence a lot more beet pulp than he is used to (unsweetened). He was leaving food sometimes, he is not thrilled. As he gets meds in there to calm him so he can go out, it is important he eat it, and I have recently made a change which he seems to like:

    I use George's aloe as I think he gets ulcery on limited turnout. I added some peppermint tea bags to the aloe which makes it a peppermint flavor, so when mixed with the feed, it is mildly peppermint flavored(peppermint is also good for digestive issues). Since I have done this, he cleans up his food.

    Try it, or even just flavor the beet pulp as it is soaking with a peppermint teabag(no caffeine) and then remove the tea bags.

    Weird, but it is working - if the horse likes peppermint, that is.
    hmmm...peppermint tea eh? That sounds like a great idea! Have you also tried soaking beet pulp with camomile tea bags as well? I've read that camomile tea is good for ulcers too.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug. 29, 2006
    Location
    Unionville PA
    Posts
    197

    Default re: chamomile tea

    I have found I am a mad scientist when it comes to overanalysing feed, supplements, solutions, etc. I think I did use chamomile on another ulcery horse.

    What got me using the peppermint is that I got some probiotics from Horsetech and they had flavored it with peppermint. My horse seemed to love it. Since I was feeding the aloe to wet the feed/mix supplements, it seemed an easy idea to put the teabags in the aloe.

    I board, so as complicated as I try to make this stuff, I try to make it easier for the barn owner.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2008
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOrangeOne View Post
    He sometimes goes into fits. It's a strange thing, generally when he's in the barn by himself, and he'll scream and go completely out of his mind. It's not so much herd bound as being by himself in the barn, since you can take him from horses in the barn and that is OK. Those fits cause him to poop 5-6 times in the span of 15 minutes. Times like that, when he is worked up, he'll stall walk all night. He's pretty active in the stall in general though, churns it up. In turnout he's generally calm, doesn't graze as much as I'd like to see. He has a round bale now that he will munch on.
    This is a high stress horse. No wonder the ulcer treatments aren't working. I highly recommend you try some of the high magnesium supplements for high strung horses. My hardkeeping TB was just like this. In fact we couldn't even leave him in a stall because he would try to climb the walls. He ran or paced up and down the fence all the time screaming. It was.driving.me.bezerk. Everything little thing out of the ordinary would set him off and it would take hours or the entire day to get him back to focusing. He wouldn't eat and he would not listen to me, literally, he looked right past me as if I wasn't there. The high magnesium supplement is doing the trick. I'm using Quiessence which has Chromium too. He is focused now, he rests, he eats, he's putting on weight. I rarely saw him lay down for a good rest in the past. He takes a good refreshing snooze twice a day now. We've had a few trailer loads of things brought in to the farm and there has been nothing more than a mild interest (stops grazing and looks) and then he goes back to his business. We had a skid steer and a front end loader here doing a lot of work and they are very noisy especially with the beep beep beep backup alarm. No problem. I tell you, in the past just a trailer (empty) coming onto the property would get him riled up for at least 2 hours.

    I wish I had learned about magnesium deficiency much sooner. He would have been so much happier, it would have been less stressful for me and I would have saved a boatload in feeding this horse. In the past I did try one lesser known calming supplement that leaned more towards B complex supplementation with some magnesium and I didn't see any change. It just didn't have enough of the right ingredients.
    Altamont Sport Horses
    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
    Birmingham, AL



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug. 31, 2004
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    4,345

    Default

    I'll try that- going by the co-op today anyways. The thing with this one is that it's a VERY situational thing. Only at one barn, only when he is in the barn by himself... He's generally fine at shows and these fits don't happen on a daily basis. One thing you said did ring a bell- looking past me. I can grab him on the nose and he doesn't even notice I'm there. Perhaps the soil in this area is deficient and that's why it's only a problem here?
    -Grace



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan. 29, 2008
    Posts
    669

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    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    Difficult to feed horse will not keep weight on and has some allergies. Needs to be low sugar and tasty as he's a bit of a diva. Also very ulcer prone. HE gets gastro and rantidine for the ulcers but his owner would like to figure out a good feed balance to make the ulcer meds go away. Still has ulcers despite multiple gastro treatements so it has to be feed related.

    He gets hyper on: legends pellets, triple crown complete, blue seal vintage victory, blue seal vintage senior,and rice bran. Does not like beet pulp. Had a colic relapse on Omegatin

    He is currently eating: 3 quarts measured dry then soaked beet pulp w/out molasses, 1 cup soaked flax, 1/4 cup hemp seed oil. He find it gross and does not eat it. He also eats 15 pounds of alfalfa, allergic to timothy and orchard grass.

    He can stay with what he's on if there is a tasty add in to get him to eat it, any suggestions would be appreciated.
    Triple Crown Low Starch...my very picky ulcer prone ottb does great on this-its low in starch/sugar which is ideal for ulcer prone/sensitve stomach horses...he also has benefited from finish line's u7 gastic aid and/or Corta Flx U Guard Solution...also Tractguard by Foxden Equine is great-its got probiotics-which help aid digestion,electrolyte salts to encourage drinking,and it also is a GI tract re-hydrator-pulls water into the gi tract,and its got an antacid as well-an all around excellent supplement for the prevention of colic and good for ulcers/sensitive systems.....this product works great.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2008
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    5,508

    Default

    I didn't read through the entire thread, but I was going to say rolled barley and cracked corn also (someone mentioned it in the early posts).



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug. 6, 2003
    Location
    Lapeer, MI, USA
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    I would take the horse off everything except alfalfa hay. No work, no being left alone in the barn. Turn out with other horses. Grass grazing.

    Loose minerals. Loose salt.

    Do the 30 days of GastroGard. Then do 2 weeks of half tubes; then 2 weeks of 1/4 tube.

    During the 2 weeks of 1/4 tube of GastroGard, start with a small amount of "grain" (barley or corn-based) ... see how that goes. If necessary, add a stomach acid buffer product such as UlcerGard powder or Liquid to each grain meal.

    Cocosoya oil can be drizzled on hay or grain. That might be a good fat product to help him with weight; but you'll need to be sure to get his amino acids in there. I was surprized at the variety in Horseshoer's Secret. Maybe there are other hoof products that this horse could use as a multi-vitamin that do not have any "bad" ingredients.

    If all you want is something to add to the mixture, to make it more tasty - try wheat bran.
    My horse loves the stuff and will even eat it dry.
    Last edited by gabz; Jan. 19, 2009 at 07:21 PM. Reason: added comment about wheat bran



  20. #20
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    Aug. 31, 2004
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    VA
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    OK, so I got some barley and wheat bran today, mixed it in, and he ate! He picked around his supplement bars, so I'll crush them up into smaller pieces, and hopefully that will do it. Thanks for the advice.
    -Grace



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