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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post
    Is it some kind of badge of honor if our horse can canter down gravel roads?
    A lot of barefoot true believers think so.

    I hate seeing horses/owners caught in a cycle of expensive shoeing/deteriorating feet, and NOTHING EVER CHANGES. The feet never improve.
    I've seen the same from barefoot trimmers. When their tender ministrations (including flower essences) don't work or the formerly shod horse becomes increasingly lame, they then blame the diet, the turnout (if it's not turned out 24-7 you might as well shoot it), the supplements (not using what they recommend), etc..

    Fergodsake, what is WRONG with some of the farriers out there that they cannot rub two friggin brain cells together and figure out that what they're doing for this horse ISN'T WORKING, and that "he just has bad feet" is not an acceptable excuse?!
    One could ask the same of barefoot trimmers who are brainwashed into believing ALL SHOES ARE BAD and would rather blame everything else under the sun for the horse's lameness rather than admit some horse need (should I say it?) SHOES!

    I just get so sick and tired of people who REFUSE to REHABILITATE HOOVES. Sticking on a set of shoes and saying - have fun at that horseshow this weekend - is not rehabilitation. We will spend a fortune in both time and money to fix ulcers, broken bones, eye injuries, colic, you name it. But when a horse has really bad feet that is causing him pain and lameness, we outright REFUSE to take time off and do rehabilitative work to restore health to the hooves.
    In my case, the horse was foundered but doing well in full EDSS minus the rails (as in cantering uphill over rocks - not ridden- but out in the field). The farrier was decent but unreliable and a prick personality wise so I continued to search for someone who could fix my horse. The barefoot thing was just becoming big back in 2001 and I contacted one who had an informative website. I didn't know much about laminitis and founder in those days.

    After the shoes were removed by this barefoot trimmer, the horse was immediately very sore i.e., walking on eggshells. A custom made pair of Swiss boots were purchased. The horse continued to get worse with each trim (no not a Strasser trim either). The boots didn't do a thing. I was told she was "transitioning" and to expect it to "get worse before it gets better".

    When after a few months the horse foundered again, I was told that was a good thing now that she had the "proper trim" and she’d be perfect in 6 months. Another eight months of trimming every three weeks goes by and the horse was still walking on eggshells (not able to trot at all, even in a variety of hoof boots and pads). I was told she needed to be on the "Vitaroyal" diet and old hay and that the hay she was on (it had been tested <9 NSCs) was too "rich" since it had some greenness to it. She didn't believe in forage testing (or radiographs I might add) - too scientific and we all know in her little world science is the enemy. This trimmer didn't know dic about nutrition, just what she got from the various barefoot internet sites which she “believed in” 100%.

    The horse was never ridden, hadn't been ridden in years as a matter of fact due to her chronically foundered condition. I would have been happy had she been comfortable enough to be turned out with other horses. That didn't happen until the shoes were put back on!

    So you see, you're not the only one with frustrations regarding hoof care. I've put off buying another horse (I've been horseless for almost two years) for two reasons: crapastic boarding barn options no matter how much you pay and the lack of availability of knowledgeable and competent hoof care in my area.



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by decorum View Post
    I am not sure how much of Dr Bowker's work is published, you may call it theories if you like.
    Even he calls them theories.

    By the way, thanks, but I don't need nor did I ask for, your permission.

    Here is an article that talks about shoes, he says that if the foot can be trimmed so that the frog extends below the hoofwall so that it touches the ground when the shoe is applied then that is the next best thing to bare.
    Bully for him! Unfortunately, what he says on some subjects is rather irrelevant in the world outside of academia, because we work "in vivo" rather than "in vitro.

    In your experience, are there ever situations where the environment can and does make up the difference if the bottom of the frog is not at the level of the ground surface of the shoe? Under what circumstances might that not occur?

    To me it sounds like a shoeing job that would make an awful lot of horses sore, however.
    It now becomes clearer why you gave up farriery.



  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post
    Ok, so WHY couldn't a 60 year old farrier who has been doing this for decades fix the problem?
    Why couldn't my mother's physician cure her cancer? She(the doctor) is a specialist with decades of experience, so............

    According to the owner, the farrier tried EVERYTHING.
    Demonstrably not. More precisely, the farrier tried everything that he knew about. Which indicates that the farrier's knowledge and experience was not as "full" as he might have thought. Which is not to be misconstrued as a condemnation of that farrier, by me.

    But then he finally concluded the horse just had "bad feet" and some horses will never be sound. And oh - you guessed it - because there's a Thoroughbred in the wood pile, THAT'S what's doing it. Then you have some wet behind the ears whipper snapper trimmer fresh out of school come in and have the horse going sound and shoulder soreness GONE within 2 trims?
    Even a blind hog occasionally finds an acorn.....

    Fergodsake, what is WRONG with some of the farriers out there that they cannot rub two friggin brain cells together and figure out that what they're doing for this horse ISN'T WORKING, and that "he just has bad feet" is not an acceptable excuse?!
    The same thing that is wrong with some of the folks of the barefoot mindset.

    I just get so sick and tired of people who REFUSE to REHABILITATE HOOVES. Sticking on a set of shoes and saying - have fun at that horseshow this weekend - is not rehabilitation.
    Who ever said it was??

    We will spend a fortune in both time and money to fix ulcers, broken bones, eye injuries, colic, you name it. But when a horse has really bad feet that is causing him pain and lameness, we outright REFUSE to take time off and do rehabilitative work to restore health to the hooves.
    So place the blame squarely where it belongs. On the owner.



  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
    I got a vid somewhere of a "Sound" 16 year old show pony that lands toe first; every step. That's barefoot on the front and shoes behind to clloect strides to the jump~~~ horses; Equss are individuals.
    Yeah, well don't be surprised that at some age he's developed navicular or ringbone or some other joint problems as toe loading increases that risk. If not, count yourself very lucky, or actually make that the horse.



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post
    You know what Rick? I have tried my level best to be nice to you. I have tried to read your posts and learn from them. I have tried to express how much I really really really like the good farriers out there. I have tried to agree with you on many ocassions and I have tried to show you great respect. Then you turn around and say something as stupid as this. It's this kind of bullshit that I am sick to death of and refuse to read anymore.
    Hope you recover soon from your near death illness.

    Welcome to the ignore list. You and Stovall can sit in the corner and play with each other.
    That might be fun were I not a confirmed, dyed in the wool, heterosexual.



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToRide View Post
    Yeah, well don't be surprised that at some age he's developed navicular or ringbone or some other joint problems as toe loading increases that risk. If not, count yourself very lucky, or actually make that the horse.

    I have shod & TRIMMED the pony for 5 years. Still going to "A" shows; will go to West Palm in a few weeks.

    Enevitibly "ALL" horses or Equus will go lame~~~ "Horses go lame because of us and horses go lame in spite of us"



  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
    I have shod & TRIMMED the pony for 5 years. Still going to "A" shows; will go to West Palm in a few weeks.
    Is this a (medium? smaller large?) bay gelding? If so, I worked with him about 10 years ago, when he was cleaning up on the A circiut. I beleive he was worth so much then that the very wealthy client could only lease him... he was not for sale for any amount of money. I remember we had to get him re-shod at one of the HITS series and he took less time than the other ponies.



  8. #68
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    A2 - as usual - well said - and I will be doing the same.
    Love what you write - and you make a good looking hoof, too!
    I remember when you first wrote - was it about a scholarship or something? - anyway - good job all the way around!!!



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabs View Post
    A2 - as usual - well said - and I will be doing the same.
    Love what you write - and you make a good looking hoof, too!
    I remember when you first wrote - was it about a scholarship or something? - anyway - good job all the way around!!!
    Thank you grayarabs, that is very nice of you.



  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Native View Post
    Hopefully you do not agree that I owe an apology.



    Maybe, just maybe , they might do even better like this rider's horse has done. She was doing very well before, now she is doing better than she ever expected.We won't know untill more are willing to try , unfortunately.

    No, I don't think an apology was warranted....not at this point anyway, but I haven't read the thread in its entirety just yet, I was away for a few hours. My point is that some/many have tried to go barefoot at whatever discipline they "do" and it hasn't worked. I'm one of them, I did it successfully with one of mine for about 8 months and then it wasn't working anymore, so we're back to shod in front and barefoot behind. It's been over a year and it still works, so I'll leave it be...until I think it's not working for either of us. I'm just saying for folks to respect the fact that my support team (farrier/vet/trainer/whatever) and I can make the right decision, don't tell me afterward I did something wrong and that's why it didn't work. Just a general statement, not to you in particular AZ.



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToRide View Post
    Well? Well, that's all rather relative, don't you think, with hock injections being rampant, horses ridden upside down and being rewarded for it ( so many people hum and haw over Blue Hors Matinee for example, when this poor horse is so stuck in her hind end it is a pain for me to watch - the horse is a SAINT! ) Who's to say that most of this may not be rooted in misguided showing practices?!

    What we see/know now is based on most horses being shod. We don't even have a reference of what it might look like if the horses truly are allowed to compete bare at those levels, with the right diet and trim, because in many cases the diet may actually make the hooves fall apart, so it is ASSUMED the horse needs shoes.

    Hooves should be sound with or without shoes. If hooves are not once the shoes are pulled, it is not because the shoes are missing, it is because the hooves are unhealthy to start with. THAT should be explored, rather than just another pair of shoes slapped on.
    Now, wait a minute here. First you said people were slapping shoes on because it was fashionable (everyone else is doing it) or the trainer "told them to", now you're coming up with some other sort of reason. Of course the horse should have adequate nutrition so they have good hooves, I doubt the horses that were originally competing barefoot and then switched to shoes had feet that were "falling apart". My thinking is that it was more of a subtle "this isn't working" anymore or he/she is better with shoes on and that's why they were put back on and the horses are doing well. WHY is this so hard for barefoot folks to understand??



  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcloisonne View Post
    A lot of barefoot true believers think so.


    I've seen the same from barefoot trimmers. When their tender ministrations (including flower essences) don't work or the formerly shod horse becomes increasingly lame, they then blame the diet, the turnout (if it's not turned out 24-7 you might as well shoot it), the supplements (not using what they recommend), etc..


    One could ask the same of barefoot trimmers who are brainwashed into believing ALL SHOES ARE BAD and would rather blame everything else under the sun for the horse's lameness rather than admit some horse need (should I say it?) SHOES!
    First, I don't use any sort of flower essences. I don't use essential oils or homeopathy or any other "alternative" to traditional medication. I prefer science and approved drugs and/or ordinary supplements when needed.

    Next, It doesn't have so much to do with "blaming" diet or turnout situations. These are legitimate issues that affect the health of the feet. This is a commonly known and accepted fact., even by farriers and vets. This has nothing to do with "barefoot trimmers." Anything that goes in the mouth comes out in the feet. If the horse lives in mud up to his knees and eats 18 pounds of sweet feed a day, it's a preeeeeeety sure bet you won't have the healthiest feet possible. There's been a ton of research lately on laminitis, and vets have been finding that a lot of horses who are just "ouchie" on their feet all the time are suffering from sub-clinical laminitis. Making an effort to eliminate as much non-structural carbohydrate load from the diet as possible has been proven to help these horses.

    So yeah, if you tell me your horse can't even walk to the water tank without his shoes on, and then in the next breath you tell me how much sweet feed he eats every day, I will likely tell you it would be worth a shot to switch to a low NSC pellet and see if he improves.

    It has nothing to do with brainwashing and witch doctory. It has everything to do with plain ole' cause and effect.

    I think I am quite different that many barefoot trimmers, in that I do NOT demand horses be fed a certain feed or turned out 24 hours a day. My own horses live in a stall 8-12 hours a day all winter and they are perfectly healthy and sound. I cannot sleep at night knowing it's -10 outside and my horses are sleeping in a snow bank. I want them in a clean, dry, deeply bedded stall with a heated water bucket and plenty of hay. My endurance horse eats XTN or Omolene sweet feed during a hard ride because she burns it off. High energy grains are not "evil." They are high energy because they provide fuel to hard working horses. And sorry but when your horse is worked two days a week for 45 minutes each time, there's probably very little reason for him to be on pounds of sweet feed every day. My endurance horse only gets hard feed when she is working hard. that's the rule.

    I don't go all ga-ga over this paddock paradise stuff, or turning your paddocks into gravel pits, or denying horses grass. I have NEVER EVER told an owner "if your horse is sore, he's just transitioning. he'll get over it." No way! I have always told owners, if this horse gets sore, you call me right away because I want to know so next time I can change things so it doesn't happen again. Also we'll need to make him comfortable NOW. Thankfully it's never happened.

    I do not preach on the evils of blanketing, worming, or vaccinating. My horses are blanketed, wormed, and vaccinated, thankyaverymuch.

    And finally, I am not "brainwashed" into thinking that shoes are evil. There are very specific instances when horses DO need shoeing. And the horses to whom this does not apply, I am happy to offer my hoof trimming and booting services. And people are happy to pay me to do so. If you want your horse shod, then shoe him. It's none of my business.

    I think it's important to note that NOT all trimmers are kookoo for cocoa puffs.



  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post
    Rick - the originator of this thread was AZ Native, and she was referring to an endurance rider with a barefoot horse, referenced in the given link. It was not Dune who had the barefoot success, as your original post to this thread indicated. It's ok to admit you made a mistake. LMAO
    Thanks for (hopefully) clarifying that. I couldn't figure out how to get all the different quotes to make sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post

    But it's up to the humans to recognize and accept genetic limitations and then do the appropriate rehab and conditioning work to give the horse the best feet possible, in spite of the genetic limitation.

    If a human is born with scoliosis, do we swaddle them up on a body board and make them lie in a bed their entire life while we carry them food and give them sponge baths? Of course not. The child would do physical therapy, stretching, exercising, possibly receive supportive drug therapy (injections) or supplementation.

    So while I DO believe that some horses have genetically "weak" feet, I also believe there is usually a lot we can do to improve them as much as possible. No they might not canter across gravel roads like another horse would, but why do we care? Is it some kind of badge of honor if our horse can canter down gravel roads?

    I've seen it in one of my own horses, and I've seen it in some of the horses I trim for people. Genetically weak hooves that have definite shortcomings. Big deal! Make sure the diet is appropriate, the turnout situation is correct, the exercise load is acceptable, get the horse doing rehab work in closed cell pads to stimulate structures to grow, shorten the trim cycle, change some things in the trim style to accomodate that horse, fit them in boots for work on challenging terrain, and the horse is just fine.

    I hate seeing horses/owners caught in a cycle of expensive shoeing/deteriorating feet, and NOTHING EVER CHANGES. The feet never improve. And eventually the horse becomes unusable and "should be retired" at 10 years old. Yeah, I trim one of these. The horse now does 3 day trail rides in hoof boots when just two years ago, the vet and farrier team wasn't sure if she'd ever be rideable again.

    I always say this and it seems like no one ever understands it on this forum - there is so much we can do to rehab feet and get the best structure, function, and performance possible, even if the feet ARE genetically weak.

    I rehabbed a horse that's no longer on my book because he moved out of state. The feet were an absolute mess and the horse was in 4 shoes to be sound enough to ride trails. After a year with me, he was doing about 75% of his trail work completely bare, and the other 25% in boots. The owner didn't want to stick with the shoes because every successive shoeing, the toes got longer and longer, the heels got higher and higher, and the horse started getting sore in his shoulders.



    I just get so sick and tired of people who REFUSE to REHABILITATE HOOVES. Sticking on a set of shoes and saying - have fun at that horseshow this weekend - is not rehabilitation. We will spend a fortune in both time and money to fix ulcers, broken bones, eye injuries, colic, you name it. But when a horse has really bad feet that is causing him pain and lameness, we outright REFUSE to take time off and do rehabilitative work to restore health to the hooves.

    So my question to everyone here is WHY?
    Ok, you do make some good points, but with the case of the child with scoliosis: There are some cases that are so bad that the child doesn't walk again, or very well, or needs assistance in the form of braces or whatever. Yes, PT and other supportive treatments are warranted, but what if they don't work? What if a year or years go by and that horse still cannot walk across that gravel without mincing, but is fine in the arena?...or he's fine on most any footing but can't land comfortably off a jump?....or he looks/feels pretty sound on most movements but doesn't have that thrust needed in his mediums/extendeds or can't sit comfortably in the pirouette? Suppose in these cases you've tried to rehab the feet, purified the diet, have adequate turnout and a kick-a$$ trimmer/farrier?? What if after all this you decide to shoe your horse and they thrive and are comfortable into their teens/early 20's and then you retire the horse, pull the shoes and call it a day? Is that *really* such a bad thing. I certainly don't think so, why is that so hard for diehard barefooters to wrap their heads around?



  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcloisonne View Post
    A lot of barefoot true believers think so.


    I've seen the same from barefoot trimmers. When their tender ministrations (including flower essences) don't work or the formerly shod horse becomes increasingly lame, they then blame the diet, the turnout (if it's not turned out 24-7 you might as well shoot it), the supplements (not using what they recommend), etc..


    One could ask the same of barefoot trimmers who are brainwashed into believing ALL SHOES ARE BAD and would rather blame everything else under the sun for the horse's lameness rather than admit some horse need (should I say it?) SHOES!


    In my case, the horse was foundered but doing well in full EDSS minus the rails (as in cantering uphill over rocks - not ridden- but out in the field). The farrier was decent but unreliable and a prick personality wise so I continued to search for someone who could fix my horse. The barefoot thing was just becoming big back in 2001 and I contacted one who had an informative website. I didn't know much about laminitis and founder in those days.

    After the shoes were removed by this barefoot trimmer, the horse was immediately very sore i.e., walking on eggshells. A custom made pair of Swiss boots were purchased. The horse continued to get worse with each trim (no not a Strasser trim either). The boots didn't do a thing. I was told she was "transitioning" and to expect it to "get worse before it gets better".

    When after a few months the horse foundered again, I was told that was a good thing now that she had the "proper trim" and she’d be perfect in 6 months. Another eight months of trimming every three weeks goes by and the horse was still walking on eggshells (not able to trot at all, even in a variety of hoof boots and pads). I was told she needed to be on the "Vitaroyal" diet and old hay and that the hay she was on (it had been tested <9 NSCs) was too "rich" since it had some greenness to it. She didn't believe in forage testing (or radiographs I might add) - too scientific and we all know in her little world science is the enemy. This trimmer didn't know dic about nutrition, just what she got from the various barefoot internet sites which she “believed in” 100%.

    The horse was never ridden, hadn't been ridden in years as a matter of fact due to her chronically foundered condition. I would have been happy had she been comfortable enough to be turned out with other horses. That didn't happen until the shoes were put back on!

    .



    Quote Originally Posted by Auventera Two View Post

    And finally, I am not "brainwashed" into thinking that shoes are evil. There are very specific instances when horses DO need shoeing. . And people are happy to pay me to do so. If you want your horse shod, then shoe him.

    I think it's important to note that NOT all trimmers are kookoo for cocoa puffs.
    See, finally, a rational thought that we can all agree on, and your sense of humor is priceless!!!



  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune View Post
    Thanks for (hopefully) clarifying that. I couldn't figure out how to get all the different quotes to make sense.




    Ok, you do make some good points, but with the case of the child with scoliosis: There are some cases that are so bad that the child doesn't walk again, or very well, or needs assistance in the form of braces or whatever. Yes, PT and other supportive treatments are warranted, but what if they don't work? What if a year or years go by and that horse still cannot walk across that gravel without mincing, but is fine in the arena?...or he's fine on most any footing but can't land comfortably off a jump?....or he looks/feels pretty sound on most movements but doesn't have that thrust needed in his mediums/extendeds or can't sit comfortably in the pirouette? Suppose in these cases you've tried to rehab the feet, purified the diet, have adequate turnout and a kick-a$$ trimmer/farrier?? What if after all this you decide to shoe your horse and they thrive and are comfortable into their teens/early 20's and then you retire the horse, pull the shoes and call it a day? Is that *really* such a bad thing. I certainly don't think so, why is that so hard for diehard barefooters to wrap their heads around?
    No, it is not a bad thing at all. I have ALWAYS said that I would be more comfortable with shoeing if it could be done RIGHT, and on a tight schedule. Sloppy shoe jobs stretched out to 10 or 12 weeks is what kills hooves (and horses.)

    Each horse owner makes their own decisions and it's really none of my business. I will tell you why I do what I do, but what you do is not any of my concern.

    And sure, some cases of scoliosis may be so bad the child can never walk again. But if we're comparing these to very bad feet, I'd say this would be more along the line of severe, extensive pathology or injury that makes the horse unusable and all you're trying to do is keep him comfortable enough to graze in the pasture and stand under the tree with his buddies.



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcloisonne View Post

    In my case, the horse was foundered but doing well in full EDSS minus the rails (as in cantering uphill over rocks - not ridden- but out in the field). The farrier was decent but unreliable and a prick personality wise so I continued to search for someone who could fix my horse. The barefoot thing was just becoming big back in 2001 and I contacted one who had an informative website. I didn't know much about laminitis and founder in those days.

    After the shoes were removed by this barefoot trimmer, the horse was immediately very sore i.e., walking on eggshells. A custom made pair of Swiss boots were purchased. The horse continued to get worse with each trim (no not a Strasser trim either). The boots didn't do a thing. I was told she was "transitioning" and to expect it to "get worse before it gets better".

    When after a few months the horse foundered again, I was told that was a good thing now that she had the "proper trim" and she’d be perfect in 6 months. Another eight months of trimming every three weeks goes by and the horse was still walking on eggshells (not able to trot at all, even in a variety of hoof boots and pads). I was told she needed to be on the "Vitaroyal" diet and old hay and that the hay she was on (it had been tested <9 NSCs) was too "rich" since it had some greenness to it. She didn't believe in forage testing (or radiographs I might add) - too scientific and we all know in her little world science is the enemy. This trimmer didn't know dic about nutrition, just what she got from the various barefoot internet sites which she “believed in” 100%.

    The horse was never ridden, hadn't been ridden in years as a matter of fact due to her chronically foundered condition. I would have been happy had she been comfortable enough to be turned out with other horses. That didn't happen until the shoes were put back on!

    So you see, you're not the only one with frustrations regarding hoof care. I've put off buying another horse (I've been horseless for almost two years) for two reasons: crapastic boarding barn options no matter how much you pay and the lack of availability of knowledgeable and competent hoof care in my area.
    Now that is a sucky story!!!! Jesus Christ, it shouldn't be like this. As some of us have said, there are bad Trimmers out there as well as Good Trimmers. One needs to do a lot of homework to find good hoofcare, good dentistry, good vet care, good chiro, blah blah blah. It's frustrating and time consuming. It is no different than trying to find a good plumber, electrician, roofer, etc. People are good at what they do and People are bad at what they do.

    Sorry to hear all that you went thru, what a bummer

    Regards,



  17. #77
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    Auventera Two in gray

    You know what Rick? I have tried my level best to be nice to you. I have tried to read your posts and learn from them. I have tried to express how much I really really really like the good farriers out there.

    What enables you to differentiate between good and bad? Your "training" at the feet of a phony PhD? Your inability to comprehend the difference between the motor skills required for different activities? Your recalcitrance as a substitute for critical thinking? Your attempt to nail shoes on cadaver feet?

    I have tried to agree with you on many ocassions and I have tried to show you great respect. Then you turn around and say something as stupid as this. It's this kind of bullshit that I am sick to death of and refuse to read anymore.

    Your personal health care problems aside, reality is still reality and your refusal to read the truth won't make it go away.

    I have a lot of horses in my care that are sound and working.

    Sure you do! How many is "a lot"?

    About half of them were lame or had significant problems with the previous trimmer or farrier.

    Did the husbandry and/or use of any of these horses change when they came into your care? If so, you're trying to take credit for something you didn't do.

    I think I do a nice job based on the number of calls I get every week for work. I turn down a lot of work because I only trim part time.

    Think again! "Nice jobs" are the result of horses getting exactly what they need to do whatever they do as best they possibly can; not the number of calls one receives. Everyone stays covered up, even hacks.

    I do not need to come to this forum and be told I'm a blind dog who gets lucky when I have a horse come sound under my care.

    Given the state of your education and experience relative to hoof care, that sounds like a reasonable assessment to me: What part didn't you understand?

    Welcome to the ignore list.

    My goodness, such a punishment!

    You and Stovall can sit in the corner and play with each other.


    For the sake of the horses that find themselves in your care, I sincerely hope you're better with a with a rasp than you are with insults. Have you considered availing yourself to insult tutoring from some reasonably bright middle schooler? If you look hard enough, you might even be able to find an insult instructor with a diploma mill PhD.
    Tom Stovall, CJF
    No me preguntes cualquier preguntas, yo te diré no mentiras.



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