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  1. #21
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    I don't lure as a rule. That then puts the reward in danger of becoming part of the cue. Dogs are better at shaping. Horses are better at modelling. (which is what I do when the horse won't offer any behaviours)



  2. #22
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    This is a whole branch of Psychology. Positive reinforcement works on a pretty large samples of animals. If it fits in a lab or a Zoo its been done. Its B.F Skinners entire theory of behavior that ruled the world of Psychology and learning for almost 100 years.

    Rats, Pigeons, Rabbits, Monkeys, Humans, fish, marine mammals, pigs, raccoons, flat worms. . . . .

    Skinner, the GM of Psychology, once went into a barn and taught the horse to ask for the bit and bridle. He was promptly kicked out of the barn for giving the horses treats and therefore spoiling them. He never went back.

    Some day the thought of using all negative reinforcement to train horses will seem ridiculous.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToRide View Post
    What's the problem?? That's precisely why I rely more on my voice than treats or gadgets - they are just as effective if used correctly. The clicker is another fancy tool really
    The point is that 'clicker training' is not required to 'clicker train' BUT the whole training premise is that you must reward after the marker is used. If you don't wish to reward.. then you don't use the marker. The marker can be a noise, a word, a clicker etc. No gadgets required.


    Using your voice is as effective. As long as you back it up as a reward. If not I would like to see you train a horse to lie down with just voice only and no punishment. Very few animals work for praise. Many who do it is due to the fact that praise becomes a no punishment marker. If 'good boy' means no correction is coming. Then 'good boy' becomes valuable.



  4. #24
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    I haven't read all the replies, but in answer to your question...a nice neck rub with a praiseful voice is plenty. I would avoid treats. She doesn't need them.

    Youngsters that age very often have trouble balancing themselves when picking up a hoof until they've had it done many, many times. They go through growth spurts as well which can make them inconsistent in balancing themselves until they are mature.

    Don't mistake being unbalanced when you hold up a foot with beligerence. Just stay with her and give her vocal praise and a nice rub on the neck to tell her she's done well. If she can't hold it up for long that's okay...but just don't praise her when she puts the foot down. Only when it's up.

    Good luck.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sid View Post
    I haven't read all the replies, but in answer to your question...a nice neck rub with a praiseful voice is plenty. I would avoid treats. She doesn't need them.
    Just like you don't need a paycheck for the work you do. There is NOTHING wrong with using what is most desired by the trainee, when training.

    Youngsters that age very often have trouble balancing themselves when picking up a hoof until they've had it done many, many times. They go through growth spurts as well which can make them inconsistent in balancing themselves until they are mature.
    Very true and so you want to position them where they have the most chance at "giving the right answer" I trim a lot of babies and I use walls to give them the support they need to lift the leg, especially the hinds.

    Don't mistake being unbalanced when you hold up a foot with beligerence. Just stay with her and give her vocal praise and a nice rub on the neck to tell her she's done well. If she can't hold it up for long that's okay...but just don't praise her when she puts the foot down. Only when it's up.
    Again I agree, except I would use what the horse wants most, food or scritches. No way does a horse desire a pat on the neck.

    Use what works! I made a short video of me clicker training lifting of the feet you can see it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHJiFsj4SDM This is nowhere complete! It was 2 degrees out when I tried it (I was freezing) so didn't spend the time I should have to demo this behavior.

    If it doesn't make any sense, let me know and I'll explain

    Regards

    Good luck.
    Last edited by irishcas; Dec. 3, 2008 at 09:23 PM.



  6. #26
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    Tree wrote: That's up to you but understand, the hoof care provider probably isn't going to use treats when they work on her feet...unless you hand the treats to them. And even then, they may not agree with their use. If I've been asked to feed any treats to ones I trim, I wait until after I've finished. I don't want to encourage a horse to be looking for treats on me while I'm working under their noses.

    The hoof care provider isn’t the one training. S/he is the one trimming. I am the one marking and and rewarding the behavior. It does not matter to me, if my hoof care provider agrees with their use or not. This is .my. horse and .my. training method. S/he is not welcome to tell me how to train my horse.

    MelantheLLC wrote: Be interesting to compare clicker trained minis to clicker trained dogs.

    See: http://www.theclickercenter.com/2004...nstatement.php
    To learn more about Panda, a .very. accomplished clicker trained mini mare.

    Born to ride wrote: What's the problem?? That's precisely why I rely more on my voice than treats or gadgets - they are just as effective if used correctly. The clicker is another fancy tool really

    Be aware the clicker is not a gadget and those who understand the method do not depend on treats. Generally speaking, after over 10 years of clicker training which has encompassed birds, dogs, cats, people, and horses, verbal markers are not as effective. They are not as sharp and not as precise as a clicker. The clicker forces the trainer to be more observant, to anticipate behavior. That is not to say that verbal markers are not useful and/or should not be used. They .are. useful but I generally only use them with advanced training subjects or when I am looking for gross behavior. Precision, in this case, would be the horse shifting weight to beginning to pick up the foot, the gross behavior would be the foot in my hand for at least a few seconds.

    Sid wrote: I haven't read all the replies, but in answer to your question...a nice neck rub with a praiseful voice is plenty. I would avoid treats. She doesn't need them.

    For some, yes. For my mare, once she understands a task, giving a treat now and then keeps the behavior strong. When learning a new task or skill, it absolutely is not enough.



  7. #27
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    Irish...I use the wall also to give them the support they need when they are unbalanced.

    If a baby has learned to love a "scritch" (same as a "rub" in my lingo) is a really good thing from birth, it lasts for a lifetime when training them to things they might initially find alarming, especially when they hit the yearling to 3 yr. old stages when they are gawky and unbalanced.

    Absolutely! I help set things up so they have the best chance of being comfortable when "losing a leg".



  8. #28
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    I would just praise her and leave food out of it. She'll be frisking people for treats while her feet are being worked on. She needs to learn how to just relax while having her feet worked on, not anticipate anything.



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    I would just praise her and leave food out of it. She'll be frisking people for treats while her feet are being worked on. She needs to learn how to just relax while having her feet worked on, not anticipate anything.
    Not if she's taught a replacement behavior ... something else to do instead of "frisking" for treats. If CT is taught correctly then the horse learns to EARN the treat ... not mug for it.
    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    I would just praise her and leave food out of it. She'll be frisking people for treats while her feet are being worked on. She needs to learn how to just relax while having her feet worked on, not anticipate anything.
    Well you obviously don't, can't or won't understand the concepts of Clicker Training. As Gwen said, teaching an alternative behavior eliminates unwanted ones. A horse taught to keep her head out of your space, will not be "frisking" you for treats.

    You can teach a horse to lift it's feet using Clicker Training and you will not need your farrier/trimmer to have treats in their pockets.

    The horse should be standing good for the farrier, save your training for before they come and after they leave.

    A frantic horse, one looking for food, is not one I want to trim I will help my clicker clients by clicking when I feel what I want in the feet, the owner delivers the treat.

    In just one trim (with cting) I can have a different horse walk off, than the one that walked in. It just takes knowledge and patience. This of course will hold true for any method you choose to employ. I just won't work on a horse who is being punished (but you can read all about that on the other thread).

    Use a reward based system, it is so much more fun and the horses are by far more engaged than any other method I've seen so far.

    Regards



  11. #31
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    I just wanted to reinforce my statement earlier, that this is a new thing by offering her a treat AFTER she has performed the task I ask her. It seems there was an arguement earlier about whether to reward via whatever method you chose during the task asked, or after the task.

    I almost never offer her treats to begin with, so she is not treat spoiled or mauling people for treats. She is however VERY curious and affectionate and prefers the attention of her mama (me) over anyone else or anything else, even when someone else offers her a treat while I am standing there. Some could see that as good and bad, but I enjoy that she looks to me for comfort and affection as well as direction.

    I am curious to know what other training issues can be corrected and accomplished with the clicker training. I dont know that I have the patience to learn how to train with it, but Im open for suggestions.

    For those who are clicker-pros, how would you correct the behavior of a horse who refuses wormer in the mouth and will back away and throw their head up in protest?? (another incident caused by the bad trainer who chased my filly around her stall and jammed the wormer in her mouth, which I didnt know was goin on for 4 months until I witnessed it)
    Crayola Posse~Aquamarine
    Love vs Money...for the love of my horse, I have no money!



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empressive Award View Post

    I am curious to know what other training issues can be corrected and accomplished with the clicker training. I dont know that I have the patience to learn how to train with it, but Im open for suggestions.
    Well first off, like any good training, it does take a tremendous amount of time and patience. I've said it before and I'll gladly say it again, watching good training is like watching grass grow. Slow and steady wins the race.

    To use Clicker Training effectively, or any other trainers method requires a good understanding of behaviors, motivations and the method itself. It also requires good feel, timing and patience, patience and a bit more patience.

    For me a good understanding of the concepts are first in order. Why Clicker Training, how does it work, what is the mindset of it. Some of this can be found at www.clickertraining.com and www.theclickercenter.com

    Next when going to the barn I decide what I'm "working" on and what I don't want to have happen when doing it. Of course sometimes I start on one behavior, only to have the horse let me know, he isn't ready and I need to back up or work on something entirely different.

    For those who are clicker-pros, how would you correct the behavior of a horse who refuses wormer in the mouth and will back away and throw their head up in protest??
    Well first I would have the horse clicker savvy. And will pretend she is for this discussion.

    So questions:

    Can the filly stand quietly if you hold her lead line close to the halter?
    " " " " " if you place your hand on the nose band of the halter?
    etc....
    Can you hold the noseband of the halter and put your finger near, in her mouth?

    The above would be a different session than what I'm describing below

    Once I could get all this reliably in the stall and in the aisle. I would put her in the stall and get her to target the wormer box, a cone, a grooming brush, wormer box, syringe, wormer syringe, grooming brush, a cone, wormer. End the session, this session should be 10 minutes at most (especially if she is young)

    In the afternoon repeat session, or the next day depending on time. I would work up to being able to touch her on the mouth with the syringe. I would use very high value rewards for these first few sessions. I mean come on, have you tasted this crap it's gross and makes your mouth tingly. You are asking them to let you jam icky medicine in their mouth. So I would use Peppermints or bits of carrots when I get to the part of touching the mouth with the syringe.

    Normally I use hay stretchers 3 - 5 per click/treat. Everytime I make a breakthrough, they get a Jackpot, usually a peppermint.

    So thats how I'd do it and it would take me more than a day. What is ruined in one or two events takes triple as long to fix. Longer depending on the severity of the event.

    Good Luck.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empressive Award View Post
    I just wanted to reinforce my statement earlier, that this is a new thing by offering her a treat AFTER she has performed the task I ask her. It seems there was an arguement earlier about whether to reward via whatever method you chose during the task asked, or after the task.
    ooops forgot to comment on this. If you want to know what it is really like. Train a human being to do something using clicker training or using a reward after they do what you want. Teach them to do something new and you CAN NOT use words.

    This would be called Shaping a Behavior and horses are great at this as is any animal including humans. For clicker training you can mark the behavior the INSTANT it occurs and then deliver the reward. Example I want the human to go sit in the blue chair. There are 5 chairs in the humans view. They look at the green chair, I do nothing, they look at the red chair, but they shoulder leans towards the blue in a clear muscle movement. Click! That could be confusing because they are looking at the Red chair. They might take a step towards the red, do nothing. hhmmm confusion they back up towards the blue. Click! Now you get a head turn towards the Blue Click!Jackpot! Click them to touch the chair and then sit.... it takes practice and sounds easier in words than in the doing.

    Now train the human to do something and only give them the food AFTER they have accomplished what you want. It will be no where near as easy or clear.

    Sure you can get the wormer in the Filly and then give her an apple, it will definitely make it a little better but you will have a struggle getting it in her because she hasn't been trained to "accept" the wormer. You're just saying thank you, which is better than nothing, but I want training to take place, an understanding.

    Clicker Training is a fine surgeons tool, take advantage of it, if that is your pleasure. I do enjoy the time it takes so have fun with it.

    Sorry to be so long winded.



  14. #34
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    If you have a dog it can also be very helpful to take a clicker training course with the dog. There are often clicker training courses to be found for dogs, and it will give you both a sense of the power of clicker training, and some instant hands-on feedback from a trainer who has used clicker training in many situations.

    It may then become clearer how to use clicker training to train your horse.

    Clicker training is a tool, but it can be a very powerful tool for training. You can bypass a number of potential mistakes because the click marks the exact behavior that you want the horse to do on cue. The horse doesn't have to guess (which they often don't do very well) about what aspect of the several different behaviors you actually are praising or treating him for.

    So, to deal with the wormer issue, you'd first have to "load the clicker." That means teaching the horse something dead simple and clicking and treating. One of the easiest things is "touch." It's also useful down the road.

    Put a soda bottle up in front of the horse's nose. If the horse touches it, instantly click and treat. (if the horse doesn't touch it, move it closer and allow the horse to bump into it; click and treat).

    Do this several times. When the horse is starting to look for the bottle to touch add the verbal cue ("touch") at the moment the horse touches the bottle; click and treat. Within a very short period of time, the horse will look for the bottle to touch when you say the word. Jackpot the horse, and then end the training session for the day.

    Reinforce the touch command a few times over the next 2 or 3 days. Then you can begin to deal with other issues.

    The main key is to break the behavior down into smaller parts, as Irishcas said. So, allowing you to hold the head/halter without fussing, approaching with the worming gun, rubbing the muzzle with the worming gun, etc. would each be a separate behavior. For good measure, I'd also fill an old worming syringe with some yummy liquid, like honey mixed with enough warm water to make it runny, or apple juice or something like that.

    I wouldn't try to deal with the worming issue as the second thing to train. I'd do something else, relatively less complicated as the next thing after teaching touch. Maybe picking up the hoof, or standing still at the mounting block.

    Good luck. It's also very fun to use clicker training, and you can almost see a light bulb going on in the horse's eyes when they suddenly "get" the connection.
    "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky



  15. #35
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    "I am curious to know what other training issues can be corrected and accomplished with the clicker training. I dont know that I have the patience to learn how to train with it, but Im open for suggestions.

    For those who are clicker-pros, how would you correct the behavior of a horse who refuses wormer in the mouth and will back away and throw their head up in protest?? (another incident caused by the bad trainer who chased my filly around her stall and jammed the wormer in her mouth, which I didnt know was goin on for 4 months until I witnessed it)"

    What I have done personally:

    1. picking up feet nicely. My mare arrived with a history of being confrontational about her feet. As described to me: "sometimes she is good, sometimes not. And I never know which it will be". She is an angel now.

    2. learning that hammering nails into her foot is not scary. First time we tried to get shoes on her, she had a melt down. Most traditional trainers/owners/handlers would have put a chain over her nose and fought it out. However, I KNOW that would simply have escalated it. So, instead, we pulled the back shoe we could not get finished, left the front ones on that were there and she went to the indoor with me, a clicker and some pellets. Fifteen minutes later, we got the shoes on without a fight. She was just scared and once she knew we were working....it turned out to be no big deal.

    3. trailer loading. When we went to pick the mare above up, it took 5 people, two panels from a round pen and 5 hours to load her up. She was willing to fight...strike, flip over, run over people in order not to get on that trailer. After I got her home we worked on everything except trailer loading. One year and 12 months of clicker training for damn near everything else I had a VERY clicker savvy horse. I lead her up to the trailer, clicked and treated for stepping up onto the ramp, walked in, clicked her head in, she came all the way in, clicked that, clicked backing out and that was a done deal. Now she is a point and shoot horse. Point her, toss the lead over her neck, cluck and she's in.

    4. ear clipping. I do not have to tie, twitch, fight or worry about ears. She lowers her head and holds it there for me. Does she like it? Absolutely not, but she is safe. And she gets paid handsomely during and after for all those good manners.

    5. spooking. She is not a terrible spooker to begin with but every single thing I could think of that might be an issue we played "touch the goblin" with. Rain coats? No trouble, she will run across the arena to touch it and come back for her treat. If I am right next to her I get touch-touch-touch.

    6. leaving the barn without her friends. We started by going to the end of the drive. She stood calmly, c/t. Then move 5 feet further on. Leaving alone is not a problem.

    7. fly spray: I started with just water, sprayed it away from her: c/t. Then I sprayed a foot, c/t. Then a leg c/t. She now stands calmly for spraying.

    8. Up and down transitions on a lunge line. She used to just pick a transition, now she nails them every time.

    9. whoa without using the reins. This prevented a possible disaster one day on a very green mare that I lost my reins on.

    10. Standing for mounting.

    I could go on and on.

    For the wormer, I could click a nose bump and mold that into inserting the nozzle into her mouth, but until you are a bit more fluent, I would start with something easier and less traumatic to the filly.



  16. #36
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    Using a dog is a good idea.. very forgiving and attentive animals, dogs (I have 7 and we compete a lot!)

    Another good idea is to clicker train other people. I give clicker seminars, and I have people practise on each other. You learn even more by being the guinea pig So if you have a friend who is willing to play (or for some reason young teenagers seem to love this game) try shaping body movements. Like touch your head with your left and and take 3 steps left.


    I have heard some amazing stories of clicker training zoo animals. My favorite was about a small primate that needed regular injections. They little guy was trained to put his arm in a tube and accept a needle.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    "I am curious to know what other training issues can be corrected and accomplished with the clicker training. I dont know that I have the patience to learn how to train with it, but Im open for suggestions.

    For those who are clicker-pros, how would you correct the behavior of a horse who refuses wormer in the mouth and will back away and throw their head up in protest?? (another incident caused by the bad trainer who chased my filly around her stall and jammed the wormer in her mouth, which I didnt know was goin on for 4 months until I witnessed it)"

    What I have done personally:

    1. picking up feet nicely. My mare arrived with a history of being confrontational about her feet. As described to me: "sometimes she is good, sometimes not. And I never know which it will be". She is an angel now.

    2. learning that hammering nails into her foot is not scary. First time we tried to get shoes on her, she had a melt down. Most traditional trainers/owners/handlers would have put a chain over her nose and fought it out. However, I KNOW that would simply have escalated it. So, instead, we pulled the back shoe we could not get finished, left the front ones on that were there and she went to the indoor with me, a clicker and some pellets. Fifteen minutes later, we got the shoes on without a fight. She was just scared and once she knew we were working....it turned out to be no big deal.

    3. trailer loading. When we went to pick the mare above up, it took 5 people, two panels from a round pen and 5 hours to load her up. She was willing to fight...strike, flip over, run over people in order not to get on that trailer. After I got her home we worked on everything except trailer loading. One year and 12 months of clicker training for damn near everything else I had a VERY clicker savvy horse. I lead her up to the trailer, clicked and treated for stepping up onto the ramp, walked in, clicked her head in, she came all the way in, clicked that, clicked backing out and that was a done deal. Now she is a point and shoot horse. Point her, toss the lead over her neck, cluck and she's in.

    4. ear clipping. I do not have to tie, twitch, fight or worry about ears. She lowers her head and holds it there for me. Does she like it? Absolutely not, but she is safe. And she gets paid handsomely during and after for all those good manners.

    5. spooking. She is not a terrible spooker to begin with but every single thing I could think of that might be an issue we played "touch the goblin" with. Rain coats? No trouble, she will run across the arena to touch it and come back for her treat. If I am right next to her I get touch-touch-touch.

    6. leaving the barn without her friends. We started by going to the end of the drive. She stood calmly, c/t. Then move 5 feet further on. Leaving alone is not a problem.

    7. fly spray: I started with just water, sprayed it away from her: c/t. Then I sprayed a foot, c/t. Then a leg c/t. She now stands calmly for spraying.

    8. Up and down transitions on a lunge line. She used to just pick a transition, now she nails them every time.

    9. whoa without using the reins. This prevented a possible disaster one day on a very green mare that I lost my reins on.

    10. Standing for mounting.

    I could go on and on.

    For the wormer, I could click a nose bump and mold that into inserting the nozzle into her mouth, but until you are a bit more fluent, I would start with something easier and less traumatic to the filly.

    Ummm... can I just send her to you for all of the above? Thats would be awesome!

    My dog is already well trained and versed in tricks from getting the remote or blanket to the Matrix... which is a trick where he performs all of his tricks super fast and the when you point your "finger gun" at him and say bang he lays down and rolls over like hes dodging a bullet... very cute and entertains my guests. He will do anything for a carrot... and yes I said carrot. but clicker pros probably see that as bad training...

    I really dont know if I have the patience, or if she has the patience for it, but it might be worth having someone come out and demonstrate to both of us how it works on her. If it goes well then I'd def considering trying it.

    Any books out there that I could read for a step by step how to and the methods behind clicker training? Im a visual person so pictures help
    Crayola Posse~Aquamarine
    Love vs Money...for the love of my horse, I have no money!



  18. #38
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    Alexandra Kurland has a couple of books on clicker training for horses.

    Amazon carries them: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw...x=alexandra+ku

    as does Karen Pryor's site: http://www.clickertraining.com
    "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky



  19. #39
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    On Alexandra Kurland...

    I have huge respect for her training abilities, and am awed with what she has done with Panda (the seeing eye mini) I don't like her books much as I think she is one of the reasons 'competition riders' think that clicker training is silly. I look at the pick in her book and DON'T want my horses to go like that. She trains 'roundess' as a stationary thing. And all the horses seem to then be 'holding a pose' when in motion, vs actually moving appropriately.

    This is not a fault of clicker training. In fact it shows how useful it is You get exactly what you click. If the trainer does not have a good understanding of what the end goal is, then you won't get it.

    AK is very good at explaining how to clicker train, and how to apply it. Her books are not good at showing good undersaddle application.



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aven View Post
    On Alexandra Kurland...

    I have huge respect for her training abilities, and am awed with what she has done with Panda (the seeing eye mini) I don't like her books much as I think she is one of the reasons 'competition riders' think that clicker training is silly. I look at the pick in her book and DON'T want my horses to go like that. She trains 'roundess' as a stationary thing. And all the horses seem to then be 'holding a pose' when in motion, vs actually moving appropriately.

    This is not a fault of clicker training. In fact it shows how useful it is You get exactly what you click. If the trainer does not have a good understanding of what the end goal is, then you won't get it.

    AK is very good at explaining how to clicker train, and how to apply it. Her books are not good at showing good undersaddle application.
    I see Alex on a regular basis, she lives a little less than 2 hours from me. The "Pose" isn't really static, it comes out of the dressage work we do. My holsteiner poses and I've never trained it, nor clicked it. I have done a lot of lateral work and rein backs and my treat delivery does put the nose back, hence where the "Pose" comes from.

    I am a very visual person as well and do much better with her videos The Click That Teaches series. The goal is to ride and her latest videos are riding videos, FINALLY.

    All her videos can be purchased from www.theclickercenter.com

    An Empressive, why in the world would I think your dog doing The Matrix would be poor training. Sounds super cool, good job!

    Regards,



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