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  1. #241
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    I sorta wonder whether it really is the "dam/mother line of the competitors they are looking at or the dam line of the sire or any other mix or match.

    At one point I think xx mare family 9(c?) was actually listed years ago and at the time the only reference I could see to that mare line in the competitors was through Erdball xx who showed up frequently as a dam sire only but it was not as the actual dam line of any competitors. So take it with a grain of salt.



  2. #242
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    The study I refer to in my earlier post was done in Holstein. The super high scorers (47 and up) at the mare inspections were not the top performers nor the top performer producers. They were very pretty and correct as their primary attributes and rarely went on to top in sport nor produced top in sport. Not advocating producing incorrect horses - obviously - but to cause one to consider why that should be? Shouldn't the most highly scored inspection horses be performing and/or producing at the highest level average and not as an exception? Are they really aiming to produce just Barbie dolls? Doubt that. Rarely is it the case the highest inspection scorers are in the top 100 FEI jumpers in the world so obviously some re-evaluation of inspection standards and/or judging needed to happen. This study was a few years ago before they opened their book to outside stallions many of whom would not meet Holsteiner type. The most successful jumpers in the world right now are more often than not HYBRIDS of French, German, Dutch, and Belgium bloodlines. Some have Holsteiner mothers but not Holsteiner fathers or visa versa, but far fewer have both Holsteiner mothers and fathers. If you are breeding for sport rather than just for inspection success, it is hard to ignore this reality.



  3. #243
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    The study I refer to in my earlier post was done in Holstein. The super high scorers (47 and up) at the mare inspections were not the top performers nor the top performer producers. They were very pretty and correct as their primary attributes and rarely went on to top in sport nor produced top in sport. Not advocating producing incorrect horses - obviously - but to cause one to consider why that should be? Shouldn't the most highly scored inspection horses be performing and/or producing at the highest level average and not as an exception? Are they really aiming to produce just Barbie dolls? Doubt that. Rarely is it the case the highest inspection scorers are in the top 100 FEI jumpers in the world so obviously some re-evaluation of inspection standards and/or judging needed to happen. This study was a few years ago before they opened their book to outside stallions many of whom would not meet Holsteiner type. The most successful jumpers in the world right now are more often than not HYBRIDS of French, German, Dutch, and Belgium bloodlines. Some have Holsteiner mothers but not Holsteiner fathers or visa versa, but far fewer have both Holsteiner mothers and fathers. If you are breeding for sport rather than just for inspection success, it is hard to ignore this reality.



  4. #244
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    One other point. There are a lot of breeding "rules" heavily promoted on this board, but one has to wonder about the success of Edward Doyle and Rusty Stewart who break many of these rules and are producing amazing horses -many horses- winning WC Qualifiers, WC Finals and competing at Nations Cup level. And the rule promoters have not done nearly as much in the same decades. Never can substitute a good horseman's feel and experience with those clinging to their statistics and loud vocalizations.



  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    I sorta wonder whether it really is the "dam/mother line of the competitors they are looking at or the dam line of the sire or any other mix or match.

    At one point I think xx mare family 9(c?) was actually listed years ago and at the time the only reference I could see to that mare line in the competitors was through Erdball xx who showed up frequently as a dam sire only but it was not as the actual dam line of any competitors. So take it with a grain of salt.
    Omare , your take is incorrect. The mare family rankings are comprised of horses from individual families competing at the top of the sport. They are scored by the stamm. The new rankings have just come out and Holsteiner stamm 776 is #1 in the world again. This ranking has nothing to do with the fathers. It is entirely about the female family.



  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by knowthatifly View Post
    One other point. There are a lot of breeding "rules" heavily promoted on this board, but one has to wonder about the success of Edward Doyle and Rusty Stewart who break many of these rules and are producing amazing horses -many horses- winning WC Qualifiers, WC Finals and competing at Nations Cup level. And the rule promoters have not done nearly as much in the same decades. Never can substitute a good horseman's feel and experience with those clinging to their statistics and loud vocalizations.
    Right and add Tatra, Newsprint and the Chapot's to that list.
    Fan of Sea Accounts



  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by knowthatifly View Post
    One other point. There are a lot of breeding "rules" heavily promoted on this board, but one has to wonder about the success of Edward Doyle and Rusty Stewart who break many of these rules and are producing amazing horses -many horses- winning WC Qualifiers, WC Finals and competing at Nations Cup level. And the rule promoters have not done nearly as much in the same decades. Never can substitute a good horseman's feel and experience with those clinging to their statistics and loud vocalizations.
    When you breed Holsteiner horses you must follow rules. Those rules are responsible for the Holsteiner Verband Studbook being ranked #1 in the world. Those rules are responsible for Holsteiner stamm 776 being the #1 mare family in the world. Those rules are responsible for the Holsteiners Cristallo and Casall being ranked #1 and #2 in the world recently. Those rules are responsible for producing 60 of the top 100 sires in the world according to the WBFSH..... 60 % ! Those rules are largely responsible for the success of KWPN and BWP.

    Those same rules keep the Dutch and Belgians flocking back in to Germany every year to buy more good Holsteiner fillies , mares and Stallions. Holsteiner breeders don't go to Holland and Belgium to buy horses. Their rules have afforded them this luxury of not needing to.

    You don't have to follow these rules. There are more roads than one that lead to the Grand Prix ring. I just happen to choose to follow the rules and it works for me.

    Until you can beat this model laid out before you......don't knock it because you make yourself look very silly.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #248
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    Do they list the competing horses that comprise the stamms list?

    What is the list of names below the stamm? The names listed below the 771 for example include dead sires-i dont do math and I dont get this.

    (Ramiro Z
    Locarno
    Promised Land
    Acorado I
    Landos
    Calvados I
    Calvados II

    (vader u. moeder)
    (Raimond u. Valine)
    (Lord Calidos u. Wurzel)
    (Niet geregistreerd u. Vorregister)
    (Acord II u. Doreen XIII)
    (Lord u. Uta V)
    (Cor de la Bryère u. Biserta)
    (Cor de la Bryère u. Biserta



  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    Do they list the competing horses that comprise the stamms list?

    What is the list of names below the stamm? The names listed below the 771 for example include dead sires-i dont do math and I dont get this.

    (Ramiro Z
    Locarno
    Promised Land
    Acorado I
    Landos
    Calvados I
    Calvados II

    (vader u. moeder)
    (Raimond u. Valine)
    (Lord Calidos u. Wurzel)
    (Niet geregistreerd u. Vorregister)
    (Acord II u. Doreen XIII)
    (Lord u. Uta V)
    (Cor de la Bryère u. Biserta)
    (Cor de la Bryère u. Biserta
    All the horses listed below the stamm ARE FROM the stamm. From Ramiro on down they are all stamm 776.

    It's also important to note that these are just SOME of the horses from stamm 776 contributing tot he mare family ranking.

    This stamm 776 also provides the Holsteiner Verband Studbook with the most mares entered for breeding. It's truely a remarkable mare family.
    Last edited by Bayhawk; Mar. 28, 2013 at 06:45 PM.



  10. #250
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    I think I understand that they are all from stamm 776 but how does that relate to the 2012 ranking of stamms as they are not presently performing (i apologize as you can tell I can be a bit child like literal at times- I dont get what those stallions stamms have to do with this years ranking or is it a cumulative ranking from the beginning of record keeping?)



  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    I think I understand that they are all from stamm 776 but how does that relate to the 2012 ranking of stamms as they are not presently performing (i apologize as you can tell I can be a bit child like literal at times- I dont get what those stallions stamms have to do with this years ranking or is it a cumulative ranking from the beginning of record keeping?)
    Yes a cumulative ranking from the beginning of record keeping. I know of at least 50 more international jumpers from this stamm. They would never have room to list them all in the tiny block. Those listed were also major contributors in their respective times. All horses from stamm 776 that are or have jumped internationally contribute to the ranking ,Just like they do from any of the other stamms.

    This is why this ranking is very important. You get to see what the top female families are producing stacked up against every other female family of any book. It's quite useful for me. This is why I buy and breed horses from stamm 776. The genetics are obviously there.....#1 in the world for the production of international showjumpers.



  12. #252
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    it looks the points are based only on the handful of horses listed (and why does ramiro Z get 120 points--and Acordado I thought died very young-gets 20--did he get to GP level?)

    Clearly, I dont get the methodology.



  13. #253
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    yes..helpful and interesting. Is there a current version?



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