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  1. #201
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    These are offspring, that didn't make it to 16h, of 16h or greater stallions, and ARE Holsteiners, but not 16h. If they were stallions, they would still be branded Holsteiner, but not approvable as stallions. That's the difference.
    Yes, and Hickstead is a registered KWPN horse. Didn't the AHHA used to have a criteria that a horse had to have a certain percentage of Holsteiner blood to be holstein?

    The Trakehner people consider themselves a breed too but still allow arab & TB, yet you have to have some Trakehner blood to be a Trakehner.

    The Hanoverian people here in the US for a long time required 50% hano blood but I think they are/did away with that requirement - and they didn't have it in Germany.



  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Not upset, but...sport horses are bred for competition, not just for breeding. Most of the other animals you have mentioned are simply bred for conformation competitions. By refusing to accept horses that have proved themselves in the highest levels of competition but are under 16 h or 16.2, a registry loses some powerful heritable talents--jumping is 40% heritable, so one could say that a large proportion of Hickstead's get have a good chance of inheriting his jumping talent.

    Just seems sort of short sighted.

    And as Tom said, have they a size upper limit?
    Exactly.

    Very few of us care whether Hickstead is approved Holsteiner Verband, or AHHA. It's the reasoning behind why some people think he shouldn't have been approved AHHA that's caused this whole long discussion/ argument.



  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    Juniors can't ride stallions in hunter classes. period. These are offspring, that didn't make it to 16h, of 16h or greater stallions, and ARE Holsteiners, but not 16h. If they were stallions, they would still be branded Holsteiner, but not approvable as stallions. That's the difference.

    Calling yourself a breed registry and not a sport horse registry and then claiming top titles for jumpers doesn't go together. Also, how can you be a 'breed' registry and let in other breeds? As Tom, whom you seem to hate so much now, said about Cornet Oblensky, he is a Belgian Warmblood who is approved for breeding with other registries. You and Reece talk about TB stallions who seem to be taken over and claimed as Holsteiners once they are approved. Whether this is used for breeding purposes or not, it is STILL a TB stallion, and ALL his offspring are half TB, even IF branded Holsteiner.

    The Dutch will do this with mares. If your outside breed mare is impressive enough, the Dutch (in this country, since they don't brand in Europe) will offer to brand her KWPN. WTF???????
    Oy, I see this fundamental misunderstanding covers a lot of territory. It's possible to debate with someone and not end up hating them. Our argument is about breeding horses... that difference of opinion is no cause to hate anyone. If I was an eye-roller, here is where I would do it.

    I can see you have no interest in breeding Holsteiners. That's fine, but there are those who do have an interest. It would be good to just shrug your shoulders and go on with breeding your own way. Why argue about a breeding philosophy you have no interest in?

    This thread is about mare families... if anyone wants to talk about the OPs topic, I'm game... otherwise, Ciao!
    http://ShowjumpersUSA.com
    CAMPESINO (1990 - 2008)
    Capitol I - Sacramento Song xx
    http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/annalisasmith



  4. #204
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    Have you run across any Adith daughters?



  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    Have you run across any Adith daughters?
    No, I haven't.. but I haven't been looking. I'm selling most of my broodmares, not in the market for more.

    I'll help you gather data if you want more mare family information, but don't know where to go to find it. If you've got a plan, let me know what I can do.
    http://ShowjumpersUSA.com
    CAMPESINO (1990 - 2008)
    Capitol I - Sacramento Song xx
    http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/annalisasmith



  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    Tiki are you talking to me because that is my post you are quoting but then the body of your post is not stuff that I said and I have never acted like I hate Tom?

    Nobody HATES Tom ! You people......I swear ! I just emphatically dis-agree with some of his statements and positions, as does he with me.

    As far as Hickstead goes.......he is not a holsteiner and doesn't meet the minimum height requirements to breed in the AHHA book. Simple as that.

    At a time when the AHHA is trying to come more in line with the breeding practices of the Holsteiner Verband and given it's
    "outcross mare base"........the last thing it needs is an outcross stallion in my opinion.

    Alot of you don't understand that the Holsteiner Verband breeds as much for their own type as they do for outrageous jumping ability. The have a certain type where as the KWPN uses stallions from 10 or 12 different studbooks and they don't have or breed for a certain type.

    I don't think Hickstead has even been considered yet for HV approval due to his standing on NA soil. It is of my opinion tha the HV will never approve this stallion for that reason, as well as his type , blood and stature issues.

    If you want to breed Holsteiners.......it must be done a certain way. If you don't......you must call them something else and here in lies the problem. Most people in this Assoc. want to call their horses Holsteiners, but very few want to actually breed one.
    Last edited by Bayhawk; Dec. 6, 2008 at 12:53 PM.



  7. #207
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    At a time when the AHHA is trying to come more in line with the breeding practices of the Holsteiner Verband and given it's
    "outcross mare base"........the last thing it needs is an outcross stallion in my opinion.
    There is a lot of validity in this statement. That is also the reason for the AHS stance on requiring the 50% hano rule that wasn't in force in Hanover. I used to think that the AHS's rule was wrong but Edgar, one day, explained the position that the studbook could easily be overrun with TB blood or other blood deviating from the original hanoverian base that was the foundation of the studbook and it makes sense.

    I think there are those who want to breed "hanoverians" or "holsteiners" or "some euro label" and end up after a generation or two with a horse that doesn't have anything to do with what is being bred in the particular region it was named for.

    It gives you all of the downsides of having a foreign entity controlling your industry and little of the upside....and the market splitting your product as distinctly different and less desirable that the "real" thing.



  8. #208
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    I'll help you gather data if you want more mare family information, but don't know where to go to find it. If you've got a plan, let me know what I can do.
    I'm not in the market either. I want to campaign my two up and coming homebreds in the spring and thats enough with the others coming up behind. But...if an Adith daughter became available.....

    Running Creek Farm - where Lisa had their breeding operation with Adith - has been sold and I don't know where they are now.

    If Americans want to "have" mare lines, then Americans need to know which ones are worth having and make sure that they aren't lost. We also need to market them - one of my criticism of the euro wb registries is that they have no interest in identifying any other line than what is IN EUORPE and that even if one did, it is so fractured here, all the other tiny little wb registries wouldn't get the info.

    I remember another thread regarding the Twist lines and it seemed like most thought that the line was mostly lost but then in the listing you posted, there were two on it with Twist dams.

    Obviously sport people have and are using the Twist lines but the breeders don't have a clue?? Who else has good solid Twist mares bred to top SJ wb stallions and wouldn't those daughters be worth having/tracking??



  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    I think there are those who want to breed "hanoverians" or "holsteiners" or "some euro label" and end up after a generation or two with a horse that doesn't have anything to do with what is being bred in the particular region it was named for.

    It gives you all of the downsides of having a foreign entity controlling your industry and little of the upside....and the market splitting your product as distinctly different and less desirable that the "real" thing.
    You make a good point, tri. If we Americans are going to use our own US mare base to breed sporthorses, I think we should call them American Hanovarians or American Holsteiners, etc. That would end the infighting and give American breeders specific goals.

    It's no different than what the Europeans did after WWII. They had to start with what they had, set goals, and move forward. They had a plan. We can do that, too. Start with what we have, set guidelines for breeding and develop a breed of our own. It takes patience and willingness to breed generationally.

    One thing they do there that is impressive to me is their recruiting of young breeders and their program of education and hands on experience for them. A sure way to keep their stated goals on track.
    http://ShowjumpersUSA.com
    CAMPESINO (1990 - 2008)
    Capitol I - Sacramento Song xx
    http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/annalisasmith



  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRoseFarm View Post
    While I appreciate the education on this thread, I sure wish I did not have to wade through the "wannabee experts" who show what they DON'T know every time they open their mouth, clogging the thread with proof.

    menopausal rant over
    ty and back to our regularly scheduled thread....
    Nice menopausal rant.

    Just like a kid throwing a mud pie.... Why even post something like this?



  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    I remember another thread regarding the Twist lines and it seemed like most thought that the line was mostly lost but then in the listing you posted, there were two on it with Twist dams.

    Obviously sport people have and are using the Twist lines but the breeders don't have a clue?? Who else has good solid Twist mares bred to top SJ wb stallions and wouldn't those daughters be worth having/tracking??
    This is why I mention the Twist lines whenever I have the nerve to interject myself into a thread about TB breeding.

    I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to TBs, but Triple Twist looks to me like a beautiful opportunity to do some generational breeding. This Twist line is very interesting and has been very successful. What a pedigree if you want the Bonne Nuit line in your mare herd. If I wanted to breed with TB mares, I might want to breed this stallion to a really good TB mare, hope for a filly and use her for breeding sporthorses in the future. It's a shame to have this known bloodline available and not use him to produce breeding stock. All that line breeding might be what makes him a bit small, so he would need an absolute outcross mare... but it might be an interesting experiment.

    Just an observation from someone who knows nothing about Thoroughbreds.
    http://ShowjumpersUSA.com
    CAMPESINO (1990 - 2008)
    Capitol I - Sacramento Song xx
    http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/annalisasmith



  12. #212
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    Did he ever sell? I think they were asking $25,000?

    From what I understand, they think it was the lack of care growing up that stunted his growth. Does anyone know how tall his sire & dam were? That would give a good indication.

    I'd like to see him on some good, powerfully built wb mares and see what those daughters would do. Take those daughters to a stallion like V'tropez who was an int'l jumper and also has Twist in his dam line?

    Does anyone know what any Coconut Grove horses have done?



  13. #213
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    Some of the Twist line horses did run small. The Chapots have kept a horse named Nicholas Amber (http://www.pedigreequery.com/nicholas+amber ) who is tiny--barely 15h, I understand. They've never bred him, and he probably isn't entire. If he were, think what a wonderful pony jumper sire he might be.

    Triple Twist seems to have been sold, as his last owner posted on the eventing board that she was planning how to haul him to his new owner. I would have loved, and posted it here, to have found a Bonne Cause tail female mare that had been used in racing (there are some on the West Coast, and I found one in New Mexico), cross her with Triple Twist, hope for a filly, and THEN do the outcross.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  14. #214
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    Oh , I wonder if the new owners are going to geld him. What a shame if they do.



  15. #215
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    I haven't said anything offically because I don't want to jinx myself but as of right now Triple Twist is sold and will remain entire. I will post the full details when ok'ed by new owner but I am supposed to haul him to MD on Friday. Thank you all for your kind words and if everything goes as planned Trey will be heading for the H/J show ring. Hopefully this will be his chance to make his mark!
    There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse-Robert Smith Surtees
    Breeding TBs, Connemaras and TB/Conn crosses for eventing
    www.twistoffateeventing.com



  16. #216
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    Triple Twist's dam (5th one down) http://www.darkhorsefarm.com/mares.html

    Triple Twist's sire was listed as 16 hands on the old stallion ad I have for him.
    There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse-Robert Smith Surtees
    Breeding TBs, Connemaras and TB/Conn crosses for eventing
    www.twistoffateeventing.com



  17. #217
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    Her daughter that is 45 days under saddle looks tall and leggy. It is wonderful to see this line being used and going. I hope we will be able to keep track of them.

    I wish we knew more about the two dams of the other Twist horses on Showjumper's list.



  18. #218
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    Twistoffate, good luck for your future and thank you for bringing us Triple Twist's story.



  19. #219
    Murcio T de Mello Guest

    Default Top mares families

    I particularly agree with 90% of the ranking made by this magazine, but...but...how could they forget about the Holsteiner stamm 730B...this is one of the most influential stamms in the holsteiner breeding...it is called, in Germany,the Caletto's stamm !
    Caletto I has hundreds of mares as mainbook.
    Caletto II is the mother' s father of the superstars : Cassini I, Cento, Indoctro ...and he died at just 6 years old !!! He stood only for four seasons and let other 11 approved sons ( Caretino is one of them )
    It's unforgivable to deny such influence !
    I would dare to insert this mare family among the top 10...with a lot of arguments !
    This ranking is really reliable but also discussable !



  20. #220
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    Probably because what we are looking here is at the mare line and the mare line of Cassini is holst stamm 3389, Cento is holst stamm 2137 and Indoctro is holst stamm 7299 .

    The mare lines only include the mother’ sire as an information.

    We look at the dam and her progenies, the dam of the dam and her progenies etc…

    I am certainly not saying that Caletto mare line is not that good, it sure is but you can not count the above stallions for this mare line.
    Suzanne
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