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  1. #181
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    Nov. 28, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by EquineLVR View Post
    Would you mind sharing his insights? I really Mezcalero but that is type of info that is extremely useful when deciding on what stallions suit what mares...
    I would love to hear those thoughts, either here or by PM. I have a mare in foal to Mezcalero and would like to continue to use him in the future.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
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  2. #182
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    I have a Mezcalero colt that I am madly in love with! I'm just so proud of this boy. He is out of my Saluut II/Merano mare. She is a powerhouse herself, but he brought the legs she needed and even more athleticism. I would use him again on her in a heartbeat. But I put her into sport, so Monterrey is a one and only.

    He is so willing to try anything... really trusts me. He is quick to learn and knows when he's done the right thing.

    I couldn't ask more of any stallion. Based on my experience with Mezcalero, I'd say he is most definitely a prepotent sire. Of course, my mare's motherline isn't too shabby either. That's always helpful.
    http://ShowjumpersUSA.com
    CAMPESINO (1990 - 2008)
    Capitol I - Sacramento Song xx
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  3. #183
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    Jan. 21, 2003
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    they WOULD not approve Hickstead because 1) he is tiny
    I have absolutely no dog in this fight. I don't breed Holsteiners and I don't do stallions, but this is an absolutely absurd statement. Anyone remember Stroller? at 14.3h. I can't imagine any reason in the world why a horse would have to be 17h, give or take, to be a good jumper and to be approved by this registry.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  4. #184
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    Why do you think so many registries go to the Holsteiner Verband for genes to add to their pool?

    There are other very reputable registries for Hickstead. He's an Olympic Gold medalist.... he is a treasure. He just doesn't belong in the gene pool of the Holsteiner horse. Use him in other registries... he is not going to be an asset to the Holsteiner gene pool. Nothing personal... just the way it is.
    http://ShowjumpersUSA.com
    CAMPESINO (1990 - 2008)
    Capitol I - Sacramento Song xx
    http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/annalisasmith



  5. #185
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    Stroller? at 14.3h. I can't imagine any reason in the world why a horse would have to be 17h, give or take, to be a good jumper and to be approved by this registry.
    I'll bite. Because as a breeding registry, they want to breed horses that are over 16 hands????

    Why would a shetland pony not be 17 hands? After all, it might have a fluffy mane and a bad attitude! Why shouldn't it be a shetland pony?



  6. #186
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    Jan. 21, 2003
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    You're absolutely right Tri. It's their registry and they can make any rules they want, but to exclude an Olympic level horse based on size - well....... that's their choice, them's their rules. It's not like he's a pony. Just how tall is he? I've seen 16h posted. Do they have to be anything OVER 16h to be approved, so any fraction over can be approved (if they meet the other criteria) but exactly 16 not? Should have left his feet long.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    I'll bite. Because as a breeding registry, they want to breed horses that are over 16 hands????
    There are a lot of Holsteiner Small Junior Hunters so I guess it doesn't always work out so well for them.



  8. #188
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    Jan. 15, 2008
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    There are an increasing number of "small " uber jumpers -

    heck, my 14,2 hand pony Not Guilty, was a top jumper pony in the 1960s and guess what, they jumped 5 feet in those days. I think 15.3 - 16.2 is the new ultimate size. Little Big Man, the new horse Laura Chapot shows, ? Bradford? , Hickstead, etc - look at the top 5 at the Bejing games. Tell me their sizes???? What the #$%# is this size issue??
    "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



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  9. #189
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    While I appreciate the education on this thread, I sure wish I did not have to wade through the "wannabee experts" who show what they DON'T know every time they open their mouth, clogging the thread with proof.

    menopausal rant over
    ty and back to our regularly scheduled thread....
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
    Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
    Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
    Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB



  10. #190
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    There are a lot of Holsteiner Small Junior Hunters so I guess it doesn't always work out so well for them.
    Are they holsteiner VERBAND approved stallions? As has already been said, the American Holsteiner Horse Assoc approved the horse and since small juniors aren't anywhere else other than in the U.S., I am not sure what your point is.?? Are these small juniors AHHA approved stallions? Do you think they should be approved stallions? Do you think a small junior competing at 3'6 in a hunter course is what the Germans are breeding for? Do you think they would be approved and branded if that same horse was in Germany?

    I don't have a dog in this fight either but all the euro warmblood registries have size minimums and i honestly don't know if the Hols. Verband would approve him/didn't approve him/because of size or because of another issue or because of several issues or becuase of no issue at all.

    I believe Rubinstein was turned down by Westfalia originally, partly due to his small size. He grew some, went to Oldenburg and they approved him albeit reluctently.

    Some of you have mentioned some horses competing at high levels that were, what was it? 14.3hands. Don't you think they would be more suitable for breeding sport ponies if they were going to be presented for some type of approval, or do you really think that a 14.3 hand stallion should be in all the warmblood registries? What would you do if a 14.3 hand stallion was fully approved with the KWPN or Oldenburg Verband or BWP or the Trakehners?

    I bet most of you would have something to say if a 14.3 hand stallion was approved with the AWS or the AWR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



  11. #191
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    there ARE a ton of small juniors that are Holsteiners, and many other registries with height restrictions on breeding stock.,.. but many forget, when a foal is inspected to get papers.. it does not have a neon flashing light growing out of his forehead reporting that it will grow only to 15.3. Only breeding stock gets reinspected when mature.
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
    Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
    Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
    Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB



  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by tri View Post
    Are they holsteiner VERBAND approved stallions? As has already been said, the American Holsteiner Horse Assoc approved the horse and since small juniors aren't anywhere else other than in the U.S., I am not sure what your point is.?? Are these small juniors AHHA approved stallions? Do you think they should be approved stallions? Do you think a small junior competing at 3'6 in a hunter course is what the Germans are breeding for? Do you think they would be approved and branded if that same horse was in Germany?
    I thought you were familiar with Hunter divisions. Guess not as you don't seem to know that stallions aren't eligible for Junior hunter divisions. Most of these horses DO come from Germany. And yeah, maybe it's what they were breeding for. They sell a ton of them to Americans. Good market here for Euro Hunters.
    To clarify the point. Perhaps they want to breed only horses over 16 hands but it doesn't seem to be working out that way. They ( and all the other registries) are producing smaller horses. So what? Why is 16 hands a magic number?



  13. #193
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    When you look at the number of small horses that have done very well in jumping at Grand Prix, and how few people would give a smaller horse an opportunity to show its talent, I would bet percentage wise, you might be better off gambling on the little guys.

    About a decade? ago, the Show Jumper of the year was a 15.2h horse. I checked out the top (I believe) 20 GP jumpers, and about 1/3 were 16h and under.



  14. #194
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    I don't know why some of you are upset about this. Every breed association or registry... whether horse, dog, cat, cow... whatever... has breed standards. This isn't new, enacted to spite one particular horse. I'm not a spokesperson for the verband or the AHHA, but I can read their breed standards.
    http://ShowjumpersUSA.com
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  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShowjumpersUSA View Post
    I don't know why some of you are upset about this. Every breed association or registry... whether horse, dog, cat, cow... whatever... has breed standards. This isn't new, enacted to spite one particular horse. I'm not a spokesperson for the verband or the AHHA, but I can read their breed standards.
    Not upset, but...sport horses are bred for competition, not just for breeding. Most of the other animals you have mentioned are simply bred for conformation competitions. By refusing to accept horses that have proved themselves in the highest levels of competition but are under 16 h or 16.2, a registry loses some powerful heritable talents--jumping is 40% heritable, so one could say that a large proportion of Hickstead's get have a good chance of inheriting his jumping talent.

    Just seems sort of short sighted.

    And as Tom said, have they a size upper limit?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  16. #196
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    Yes, I agree with you. It makes sense that any sporthorse registry would be eager to have an Olympic gold medalist in their rank and file. There are many highly ranked sporthorse registries to choose from. However, the verband is not a sporthorse registry, it is a breed association. This makes all the difference.

    Although the Verband is highly respected throughout the world, some of us here seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding (or rejection?) of it's breeding goals and principles. This has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseam. Sometimes it's better to amicably agree to disagree and call it a day.
    http://ShowjumpersUSA.com
    CAMPESINO (1990 - 2008)
    Capitol I - Sacramento Song xx
    http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/annalisasmith



  17. #197
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    Oct. 22, 2008
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    I don't have, either, a dog in this fight.
    I think that the Holsteiner Verband is free to make whatever decision they like.
    I think breeders are free to breed to the stalion they choose, then registering the foal in whatever registry will accept them.
    There will be many registries who will accept Hickstead because of his great jumping ability.
    I also think that breeders will choose the mare with a size that will complement the size of the stallion.
    There are very successful breeding stallions at 16 hands.
    I for one will be interested to buy a Hickstead son. I don't care what registry have issued the papers.
    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
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  18. #198
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    I thought you were familiar with Hunter divisions. Guess not as you don't seem to know that stallions aren't eligible for Junior hunter divisions.
    I guess you don't know that Hickstead is a STALLION and his approval or not being approved would be FOR BREEDING and I guess you don't know that the Holsteiner Verband is in Germany or else why would you make a corralation between Small hunters who CAN'T be stallions in a country where the Verband doesn't operate?

    I had a small hunter in my barn that was a quarter horse cross. He could jump 5 foot any day without blinking an eye. Should the Holsteiner Verband approve him? - hey he isn't even a stallion! See it is totally irrevelent.

    As is this continued facination over Hickstead. No one even knows if there has been an official approval or not of Hickstead from the Verband and if he was turned down, was it due to size or not?

    Personally, I'd like to know if anyone has any Adith daughters. Reece a while back talked about mare lines and acquiring daughters. An Adith daughter would be one to acquire.



  19. #199
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    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Are these small juniors AHHA approved stallions?
    Juniors can't ride stallions in hunter classes. period. These are offspring, that didn't make it to 16h, of 16h or greater stallions, and ARE Holsteiners, but not 16h. If they were stallions, they would still be branded Holsteiner, but not approvable as stallions. That's the difference.

    Calling yourself a breed registry and not a sport horse registry and then claiming top titles for jumpers doesn't go together. Also, how can you be a 'breed' registry and let in other breeds? As Tom, whom you seem to hate so much now, said about Cornet Oblensky, he is a Belgian Warmblood who is approved for breeding with other registries. You and Reece talk about TB stallions who seem to be taken over and claimed as Holsteiners once they are approved. Whether this is used for breeding purposes or not, it is STILL a TB stallion, and ALL his offspring are half TB, even IF branded Holsteiner.

    The Dutch will do this with mares. If your outside breed mare is impressive enough, the Dutch (in this country, since they don't brand in Europe) will offer to brand her KWPN. WTF???????
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  20. #200
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    Tiki are you talking to me because that is my post you are quoting but then the body of your post is not stuff that I said and I have never acted like I hate Tom?



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