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  1. #1
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    Default Top 25 mare families in the world

    Since so many of you were interested in the top 25 female family rankings in the world for the production of showjumpers , I thought I would list them here. This ranking was compiled by Sporthorse Breeding Magazine Sept. 2008. Holsteiner female familes hold 12 out of the top 25, Kwpn 8 , SF 3 , BWP 1 and Hannoverian 1 for the total of 25.

    # 1 is Holsteiner stamm 776 and the familes of Ramiro , Locarno , Promised Land, Acorado , Landos and Calvados I & II contributed to this #1 ranking.

    #2 is KWPN stamm 020 (Emmerton , Mac Kinley , Modesto & Cavalier )

    #3 is KWPN stamm 114 (Looping , Okidoki & Vancouver d'Auvray)

    #4 is Holsteiner stamm 18b1 (Common Sense , Lapacco , Farn , Quantum , Lagos, Constant , Roman & Ronald )

    #5 is KWPN stamm 006 (Cycarlos LZ , Nairobi & Mr.Blue )

    #6 is Holsteiner stamm 162 ( Coster , Carthago , Non Stop , Feinschnitt I, Cascavelle , Lacros & Stanley )

    #7 is Holsteiner stamm 18a2 ( Calle Cool , Castella , Chambertin , Calvadur , Chamonix , Komeet & Marmor )

    #8 is KWPN 093 (Kalusha , Oranta & Renville )

    #T-9 is Holsteiner stamm 741 (Calira , Olli-Pop & Leandro )

    #T-9 is SF stamm 42 (Ideo du Thot , Kingly du Reverdy & Elf d'Or )

    # 11 is Holsteiner stamm 1298 (Chupa Chup , Emilion & Lord )

    #12 is KWPN stamm 002 (Darco & Arko III )

    #13 is Holsteiner stamm 5401 (Leconte , Prima Vera & Fernando )

    #14 is Holsteiner stamm 104a (Corradina , Corland , Celano , Landetto & Carneval )

    # T-15 is BWP stamm 42 ( Utopia & Vigo d'Arsouilles)

    #T-15 is Hannonerian stamm 763 ( Sham & Tresor )

    # T-15 is Holsteiner stamm 6372 ( Concept & Lambrasco )

    # T-15 is Holsteiner stamm 890 ( Casall & Conally )

    # T-15 is KWPN stamm 022 ( Casadora & Paloma )

    # T-15 is KWPN stamm 106 ( Authentic & Olinda )

    # T-15 is KWPN stamm 203 ( Ever Mury Marais Z & Sherry Mury Marais Z )

    # 22 is Holsteiner stamm 6893 ( Cash 51 & Concerto II )

    #23 is SF stamm 7 ( Quidam de revel & Uriel )

    #24 is SF stamm 2 ( Koro d'Or & Papillon Rouge )

    #25 is Holsteiner stamm 7299 ( Lord Louis & Indoctro )


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  2. #2
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    Default

    Great info! My horse has both 776 and 18b1 from his sire. I always knew he was special...



  3. #3
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    Default

    Yeah, I have two granddaughters of Ramiro, and their daughters by Iroko Keur, Pablo and the 2008 filly by Ikoon, a son of Libero H out of a Nimmerdor mare, which brings Farn into that pedigree.



  4. #4
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    Default

    Since i am dense it is not readily apparent to me what methodlogy was applied to come up with these mare lines (yes-- I know I will be told to look it up) --But on its face--some of the horses listed as supporting the list have not competed for years but are known as important sires (e.g. QDR) -others are competing right now (Authentic, Coster)...so is the mare line from the sires of FEi jumpers-- or the mare lines of all competitors in the last 10-20 years or a combinition?

    At one time xx mare family 9c I think was on the list but the main representative was erdball (born long ago) who shows up only but often as a "dam's sire" on the FEI sire list-so I was confused even then as the list did not appear to be derived from the maternal mare line of competitors.



  5. #5
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    Default

    Interesting info thanks! I too am wondering about how the math is run behind those listings. Is this show jumping only? Also since no official numbering system is in place (yet) for Hanoverian marelines how did that number with the Hanoverian line mentioned come up? Did they go with the Schridde book data?



  6. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareen View Post
    Interesting info thanks! I too am wondering about how the math is run behind those listings. Is this show jumping only? Also since no official numbering system is in place (yet) for Hanoverian marelines how did that number with the Hanoverian line mentioned come up? Did they go with the Schridde book data?
    Kareen, according to one of the statisticians , it is based on the number of 1.50 meter international grand prix horses said mare family has produced. And yes, it is only showjumpers.

    I don't know how but someone has come up with a number for each mare family of each studbook. This Hannoveraner family 763 has obviously been numbered this way for a while or they couldn't have kept up with their showjumping progeny from this mare line.



  7. #7
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    Default

    it is based on the number of 1.50 meter international grand prix horses said mare family has produced.
    and this is where we fall behind in the U.S. Out of curiosity, do you know how many of the U.S. big grand prix are "International"?

    It is my understanding that part of the membership in the WBFSH is the direct influence with the FEI to "authorize" a sport as "rankable". Obviously, the euro studbooks have an incentive to try and get as many "home" events ranked as possible to give a better chance of their homebreds being ranked - though with the easy proximity for some of the countries, horses can participate in many events.

    With the US studbooks having little if no influence, many of the U.S. GPs aren't ranked, therefor the ability for any U.S. bred horses (if they get that far) to be ranked will be also little to none along with any marelines that might come about.



  8. #8
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    Yepppp. Here inlies one of the problems.



  9. #9
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    Default

    I think there are around 13 USA FEI recognized events. Canada has maybe 4. It's been a while since I looked them up. 4 or more of the USA ones are part of Wellington.

    By contrast GBR and IRL combined had 12. I remember being surprised that Italy had so many FEI shows, more than 65. Germany had the most.

    FEI approved showjumping competitions are very expensive to hold. The required pize money is enormous and the entry fees are capped. A lot of services have to be provided free to the competitors. It is possible that one of the reasons there aren't a lot of approved events here is the cost involved. I think at the 4 star level the $ required are around $250,000. There aren't a lot of GP's held here with that much money involved.

    The FEI website does have a searchable db of approved shows and information about required prizemoney. As I said, it's been a while since I looked up the requirements so they may have changed.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
    I think there are around 13 USA FEI recognized events. Canada has maybe 4. It's been a while since I looked them up. 4 or more of the USA ones are part of Wellington.

    By contrast GBR and IRL combined had 12. I remember being surprised that Italy had so many FEI shows, more than 65. Germany had the most.

    FEI approved showjumping competitions are very expensive to hold. The required pize money is enormous and the entry fees are capped. A lot of services have to be provided free to the competitors. It is possible that one of the reasons there aren't a lot of approved events here is the cost involved. I think at the 4 star level the $ required are around $250,000. There aren't a lot of GP's held here with that much money involved.

    The FEI website does have a searchable db of approved shows and information about required prizemoney. As I said, it's been a while since I looked up the requirements so they may have changed.
    Informitive post.....thanks !



  11. #11
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    Default

    I'm rather dense too. Do each of these stamms/motherlines trace back to one mare and then directly through her daughters, etc. to the present day?

    Because didn't I read here somewhere that breeders are assigned stamm numbers, not the mares? Or is the stamm assigned to a breeder who has used a single mare family for generations in his/her breeding program?

    Please explain.
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  12. #12
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    Default

    As Kareen already said. Theere is no offical family numbering in Hanoverian breeding. Someone thought has collected mare line information a for making things easier numbered the damlines he listed. I find a 763 there and it icludses the privately owned stallion Tresor of Belgium (it does not give info on his show record tough) but also listed for this family are Olympic star under Todd Minikus, Borsalino Heike Kemmer, Walloony Tomy Hassmann.
    And this should be the hanoverian mare family with the most success in international GP jumping ? I wonder who is lacking information there.
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  13. #13
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    Default

    Only certain international shows (basically big shows with big prize money) are counted in the WBFSH/FEI points and rankings. A small 1-star show, and even 2-star shows, are not calculated in the rankings to the best of my memory. There is no grand conspiracy against the US.

    The ranking of the marelines is meaningless without a denominator. Some mare familes are huge while others are small. What should be calculated is the number of international competitors per 100 animals.


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  14. #14
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    Here are the USA FEI recognized showjumping events within the next year:

    WELLINGTON 12/4/2008 CSI3*-W
    WELLINGTON 1/21/2009 CSI3*
    WELLINGTON 1/28/2009 CSI3*
    WELLINGTON 2/18/2009 CSI3*
    WELLINGTON 3/11/2009 CSI3*
    WELLINGTON 3/18/2009 CSI3*
    TAMPA 4/04/2009 CSI2*,CSI5*
    CHARLOTTE 4/10/2009 CSI5*
    LAS VEGAS 4/15/2009 CDI-W, CSI-W
    LAKE PLACID6/23/2009 CSI3*
    LAKE PLACID6/30/3009 CSI3*
    MORELAND OH9/02/2009 CSI2*
    NEW ALBANY 9/20/2009 CSI3*

    Here is where you can search for events:
    http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Calen...sciplineCODE=S

    CSI/CSIO Requirements are here:
    http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Jumpi...Schedules.aspx



  15. #15
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    In the USA and Canada international shows are organized differently than in Europe. For example a rider can bring a string of horses to Wellington in mid-January and he or she has international classes to compete in for the next three months, until mid-March, without interruption. That is a huge advantage in terms of stress of travel, etc. The same goes with Spruce Meadows.



  16. #16
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    Tom, I don't think there is any grand conspiracy against the U.S. It is just that WBFSH rankings are predominately EU based. Matter of fact, there is a WBFSH committee just to "deal" with "Non-EU countries"

    There are events that are rankable in EU countries that junior riders can compete in ranking those horses & bloodlines that a junior rider rides all in addition to the young horse classes that also rank those horses/bloodlines.

    Contrast that with the U.S. where only a horse competing with a top rider at the absolute top of the sport would be able to get ranked.

    And, do you have any idea what it would take money-wise to keep even ONE horse at Wellington for THREE MONTHS?

    Meanwhile, there are $50,000 GPs and up at places like Santa Anita, etc that will never be ranked but see some of our best horses & riders.



  17. #17
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    You can find the exact way the rankings are calculated here:
    http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Jumpi...08_updated.pdf
    WBFSH use those FEI rankings for their calculation.
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  18. #18
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    Thank you for posting that. There is nothing like information.

    Tri, you wrote: "There are events that are rankable in EU countries that junior riders can compete in ranking those horses & bloodlines that a junior rider rides all in addition to the young horse classes that also rank those horses/bloodlines."

    I am not completely clear what you are trying to say but if I understand you correctly you are wrong.

    Young horse classes at international shows, even at big shows, typcially do not have the prize money that would make them rankable. And a Grand Prix in a 2-star show is not rankable if the prize money is less than CHF 7,500.

    The costs in the US may be hgher -- don't blame European for that -- but the prize money in the
    US is much better. Condios' former rider was amazed when he moved to the US. Even small GPs would have great prize money, multiples of what would be available in Europe at the same level of competition. So it works both ways.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    Only certain international shows (basically big shows with big prize money) are counted in the WBFSH/FEI points and rankings. A small 1-star show, and even 2-star shows, are not calculated in the rankings to the best of my memory. There is no grand conspiracy against the US.

    The ranking of the marelines is meaningless without a denominator. Some mare familes are huge while others are small. What should be calculated is the number of international competitors per 100 animals.
    I dis-agree that the rankings are meaningless. If they were, they wouldn't bother with compiling the data. Yes, some families are bigger than others but we have the huge family 776 as #1 but we have another huge family 730b that is not in the top 25 . Production is production and it is what it is.

    I agree with you that it would be more telling if they went with international horses per 100 produced by each stutenstamme.



  20. #20
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    I am referring to the overall WBFSH rankings. It is hard to figure out what is actually rankable and what isn't - I don't think that link is all there is to it.

    Here is another link from the WBFSH http://www.wbfsh.org/?GB/Activities/...mpionship.aspx

    And here is another one http://www.wbfsh.org/?GB/Activities/Annual%20Plan.aspx

    There are stallion rankings, studbook rankings, the OT of the top 25 mare families....

    and all of it pulls from data from the WBFSH which is predominately EU based.

    In addition, from what I understand from the WBFSH statutes, that a horse is not automatically included even if the horse is competing/winning at int'l level. Someone or something - usually the studbook the horse is registered with - has to turn in the information on the horse to the WBFSH. So if an American horse is competing and the studbook doesn't turn in the info, the horse doesn't get the points.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the europeans for anything. I am just stating the lay of the land and I am still trying to learn details and the accuracy of the information....which, once again, is much harder for Americans to find out because the whole system is one that is set up "over there" with little information about it here.



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