The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 121
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2008
    Posts
    35

    Default Tell me about these feet...new pictures, page 6

    I recently changed farriers based on the vet's recommendation. I'm seeing some things in my horses feet that look wrong to me, but I'm no farrier...so I don't really know. She's never been an easy horse to get right. I'd like some opinions on her feet. I'd appreciate it if you could speak slowly and in small words I'm trying to learn...

    Left front:

    Lateral
    Medial
    Solar
    Heels

    Left hind:

    Lateral
    Medial
    Solar
    Heels

    Right front:

    Lateral
    Medial
    Solar
    Heels

    Right hind:

    Lateral
    Medial
    Solar
    Heels

    This horse was reshod 10 days ago. Since then, the left hind especially has slipped to the outside by about half and inch and back from the toe by about half an inch. To me, it looks like she's awfully long on the inside on the left hind. I also really don't like how this farrier has the heels of the shoe so narrow that they're ON the frog. The horse also seems to be trending toward underrun behind, which really concerns me, as that's never been a problem before.

    Last time this horse was done, the farrier mentioned something about how she's getting sheared heels behind because she travels so narrow. I was really confused by that

    My vet really likes this shoer, and she's really very, very bright...but I'm really getting concerned about my horse's feet. Should I go back to him, or should I scrap that idea and try to find someone new? I just don't know what to do.

    We did try barefoot a little while ago and the horse got very sore.
    Last edited by riana; Nov. 21, 2008 at 12:55 AM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 20, 2006
    Location
    Western NY
    Posts
    559

    Default

    The toes look long and I can see there is some jamming up at the quarters. Look at the coronary band and you can see that it's being pushed up. I don't know enough yet to be able to tell too much with what's going on with the hoof with the shoe's still on. I sent you a PM with some more info though.
    R.I.P Vanny 26 yr QH Stallion 4/11/82 - 5/8/08, Scout 28 yr Paint Cross Gelding, Glistening 11 yr Arab/Saddlebred Mare



  3. #3
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2008
    Posts
    181

    Default

    I am not as experienced as some farriers here but, you do have a sheared LH. The shoe is likely shifting because of it unless the farrier left more room on the lateral branch intentionally. You have balance issues on that foot, foot to shoe surface contact issues on all 4, heel check issues, but there are some issues you dont have either so there are some pluses too. AT least the shoe is a proper size I also don't know what this farrier had to start with either.

    Every farrier is different about the amount of work they put into the job they do.... BUT, IMO, I see a lot of foot on this horse for being 10 days out. Your farrier trims very conservatively. Does your mare have soundness issues?

    The majority of the issues I see all begin and end with the trim If the trim isn't right, the shoes will never be right either. The trim plays a huge role. If the trim isn't right, the fit won't be right (no matter how much or how little you modify the shoe), if the fit isn't right, the nail up won't be right. If the nailing isn't right, you get lots of other issues.... you get the point
    Whole Horse Hoof Care
    Mt. Airy, Maryland
    Barefoot When Possible, Shoes When Necessary
    kNOw hoof, kNOw Horse.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2002
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    16,684

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Patty Lynch View Post

    The majority of the issues I see all begin and end with the trim If the trim isn't right, the shoes will never be right either. The trim plays a huge role.
    Amen to this. That horses problems are 99% trim related. Find someone that can trim properly with or without the shoes and you'll probably get his problems fixed.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2008
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Thank you for your feedback. It's helpful to know I'm not imagining that there are some things wrong with this trim job/shoe job. I'm frustrated to hear the horse looks long. I don't know why the farrier would leave extra hoof on the horse. This horse does best when her feet are kept short, and he knows that (or should, because we've spoken about it.)

    The extra shoe on the lateral side of the left hind was not there when the horse was shod. That shoe was also fit full to the toe. The shoe is quite literally sliding right off the foot. The horse is sore on that leg (well, sore on both hinds) and spend most of her time resting that foot while tied. She will also pick up a hind and sort of kick out before putting it down or resting it. We've had hock problems with this horse (hopefully managed now after hock injections) and it makes me crazy to see this "I'm hurting" behavior. I didn't ride yesterday because I thought her feet were too out of whack.

    Could someone please explain/illustrate what sheared heels are? I just don't quite understand that part.

    Oh, I also wanted to add: my horse has taken to standing with her hinds under her and her fronts under her. She looks sort of like an elephant on a barrel. I assume this is because she's not comfortable on her feet?



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2005
    Posts
    7,320

    Default

    The horse does not actually have sheared heels - it is created by unbalanced trimming side to side (medio-lateral ymbalance). I see medio lateral imbalances in all 4 hooves, except the LF isn't quite as bad as the others, however it seems like the LF is being left too high in the heels instead.

    And all show the typical forward toe/underslung heel syndrome that is common in shod horses

    Oh, I also wanted to add: my horse has taken to standing with her hinds under her and her fronts under her. She looks sort of like an elephant on a barrel. I assume this is because she's not comfortable on her feet?
    This is also often due to incorrect trimming (leaving heels too high in the fronts) and compensation for shoe instability on smooth ground (makes stepping more slippery), so they stand more under for support.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2008
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BornToRide View Post
    And all show the typical forward toe/underslung heel syndrome that is common in shod horses
    This is what really concerns me, as we used to just have this low toe/low heel problem in the right front (the horse was in a 3 deg wedge on that foot.) Her hind feet used to look great with no underslung heels

    This farrier is supposed to be great with long toed/low heeled horses. I'm just not seeing it.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2008
    Posts
    181

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BornToRide View Post
    The horse does not actually have sheared heels
    What's YOUR definition of a sheared heel?
    Whole Horse Hoof Care
    Mt. Airy, Maryland
    Barefoot When Possible, Shoes When Necessary
    kNOw hoof, kNOw Horse.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2008
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Does anyone else have any thoughts?



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep. 17, 2008
    Location
    in the Antares
    Posts
    18

    Default

    From looking at the photos the trim itself is really bad, medial/lateral balance hasn't been taken into consideration or if it was it was done incorrectly, ALOT of farriers question themselves on how to balance the hind feet. No matter what kind of shoes any horse has on, if the trim isn't correct then it is all in vain. The shoes the horse has on look like they were just slapped on without much consideration to addressing any imbalance or conformation faults the horse has and I just can't see that continued shoeing as it currently is done will stimulate any heel growth.
    (Dr. Stephen O'Grady defines a sheared heel as hoof capsule distortion resulting from the displacement of one heel bulb proximally relative to the adjacent heel bulb.) you can get on his website- equinepodiatry.com and look at the full description.
    I love to work with vets and greatly value their knowledge from the fetlock up but they generally don't and never have trimmed or shod a horse and alot of times when one reccommends a farrier it isn't always because they are the best so you just have to be careful and ask around when changing farriers and look at other horses they have done. Good Luck on this farrier drama.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb. 2, 2007
    Location
    Finland and NJ
    Posts
    2,262

    Default

    Yikes, those are some long toes. The balance looks completely off. It's almost as if he's sitting on his heel rather than standing square. Definitely needs to be re-shod or change farriers. Like others have said, trimming is the foundation to shoes. Without proper trimming, your shoes will be all off.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 18, 2005
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    581

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by riana View Post
    Does anyone else have any thoughts?
    Specifically looking at the left hind, I don't see so much of sheared heels. Having said that, I am not a farrier. What I see is a lot of bar on the medial side of the hinds and not so much on the lateral side. On the other feet the balance looks off. I'm not experience with shoes, but the heels look contracted as well as the hairlines being arched.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 9, 2008
    Location
    In A World Called Catastrophe
    Posts
    1,789

    Default

    My idea is who ever shod this horse is a hack.
    Horse has way too much toe. Sheered heels not so much. Pull the toe back and the foot will appear very different. The shoes are too big for the horse. I can see a horse having a shoe extended if the farrier is trying to draw the heel back, bu if the toe was as it ought to be... already been said.
    The foot looks healthy enough, just needs a new pedicure and likely a very different farrier.
    If the shoe's are moving around maybe clips and a different farrier are in order. Personally I'd start with a shoe that fits and someone who's shoeing job doesn't need attention after 10 days.
    It can be so frustrating finding one who does the job you like. Or that is useful.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2008
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Thank you all for your feedback. It's actually really reaffirming to hear "whoever shod this horse is a hack." The farrier I had prior to this new guy didn't address some issues the horse was having (namely the long toe/low heel on the right front, which he wedged up) but I don't feel like he HURT the horse. This new guy is hurting my horse.

    Today she was VERY painful and tried to either kick me or bite me if I touched her from the wither back. This is not at all normal for her. She was picking up the hind feet and holding them up...really looked like an "OUCH" thing. She was pointing the fronts. She's just body sore all over. This is just so frustrating after spending $$$ getting this horse sound. I placed my trust in this new farrier and it was obviously misplaced. I don't understand why the vet I use--who has been incredibly brilliant in every other regard--is so high on this farrier. If *I* can see that the trim/shoe job is not good for this horse, why can't she?

    I have an appointment with someone new on Wednesday. He's been very highly recommended. I hope he can help.

    I am torn on whether or not I should let my vet know about the problems I am having with my horse's feet and the all-over body soreness, and about the new farrier. Should I shoot her an email with the new problems and explain why I'm seeking out someone new? Or should I just move forward with the new guy and let her know later? We have been working pretty closely these last few weeks. I don't want to piss her off, but I do want to let her know my horse is not okay. Any ideas on this?



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2005
    Posts
    7,320

    Default

    as we used to just have this low toe/low heel problem in the right front (the horse was in a 3 deg wedge on that foot.)
    Did the wedging ever help?

    IMO sheared heels are mostly created by years of serious unbalanced side to side trimming. I find that the more a horse unevenly wears his hooves due to musculo-skeletal issues, the more they tend to be screwed up by trimming. It is almost like the farriers cannot accomodate the more difficult hooves with their trimming - they seem to have a tendency to trim all hooves the same way, like they only ever have plan A. I currently have a case like this - after only 3 trims the horse's left hoof is starting to look already a lot more balanced. He still has a long ways to go though.

    I also looked at another mare today who's developed severely underrun heels again with shoes on. She did not look like that when she was bare last winter - same farrier has been trimming her throughout.

    vet I use--who has been incredibly brilliant in every other regard--is so high on this farrier. If *I* can see that the trim/shoe job is not good for this horse, why can't she?
    One of the hardest things is for humans to agree on what should be normal. To me normal is a hoof on a wild/feral horse. This is what a healthy, normal hoof should look like. Anything else has been fabricated by one human or another. Many are simply not used to what normal actually looks like. They are used to the hoof pathologies they see every day and if a horse is sound, it is assumed that this is what normal should look like. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Any hoof that flares excessively, has underslung heels or heels that are too high , toes too long, medio-lateral imbalances and heel contraction is NOT a normal and healthy hoof!



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2004
    Posts
    1,330

    Default

    I agree with the others, I think getting someone new is definetely a good move. I just wanted to commend you for reading your horse so well, and doing something about it. It's tough to find a shoer you really like that works well for each horse! Good luck. Also wanted to say you got some great pictures!
    and--yeah, i think I'd email my vet and let her know you had to make changes. Let us know how the new one works out!



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2008
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BornToRide View Post
    Did the wedging ever help?
    Well, what's your definition of "help" in this case?

    The wedge got the bony column in alignment. The horse was in the wedge for a couple years, and that foot never really changed. It's didn't get worse, but it didn't get any better, either.

    IMO sheared heels are mostly created by years of serious unbalanced side to side trimming. I find that the more a horse unevenly wears his hooves due to musculo-skeletal issues, the more they tend to be screwed up by trimming.
    This horse was balanced side to side 12ish weeks ago when the new guy started with her. She did not come to him with this problem. This has developed in the last 12ish weeks (I'd have to check my calendar for the exact dates.)

    It is almost like the farriers cannot accomodate the more difficult hooves with their trimming - they seem to have a tendency to trim all hooves the same way, like they only ever have plan A. I currently have a case like this - after only 3 trims the horse's left hoof is starting to look already a lot more balanced. He still has a long ways to go though.

    I also looked at another mare today who's developed severely underrun heels again with shoes on. She did not look like that when she was bare last winter - same farrier has been trimming her throughout.
    There are plenty of farriers in this area that are great with the run of the mill horses. They just can't handle any corrective shoeing at all.

    There's a guy who does a lot of horses at my barn, CJF, has been recommended a few times as I've been asking around for farriers. I've seen a few of his horses and they're not bad. Nothing special, but they look okay to me. He also does a 20 something yo TB, who's feet I'd never noticed. Well, one day I took a look. He has the MOST underrun feet I've EVER seen, in front and behind. I got talking to his person, who then went and talked to the farrier, asking if they could address the issues, and she was told "That's just how he is. We'll never be able to change him."

    Those are the sorts of farriers we've got plenty of



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2004
    Posts
    1,330

    Default

    Riana,
    are there any qualified (barefoot) trimmers near you? That may be a direction you could consider.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2005
    Posts
    7,320

    Default

    This horse was balanced side to side 12ish weeks ago when the new guy started with her. She did not come to him with this problem. This has developed in the last 12ish weeks (I'd have to check my calendar for the exact dates.)
    Totally sounds trim related then. Kudos for you to be so observant. Many owners never notice until the horse starts to show lameness issues.

    The wedge got the bony column in alignment. The horse was in the wedge for a couple years, and that foot never really changed. It's didn't get worse, but it didn't get any better, either.
    I was just curious because this is generally what we hear - it either does not change, or it gets worse.


    Medio lateral imbalances is one of the most common problems I see in trimming and it tends to be worst in hooves that toe in or out. The tricky part is that you can't just rely on looking at the heels when you pick up the leg, because of how it turns when you do, thanks to its alignment when flexed. The only reliable approach is to actually measure the collateral groove depth at the heels to make sure they are even or pretty darn close to even side to side.

    I used to say that out of the numerous farriers around here, there were only two I would let touch my horse, but after what I saw today, I am no longer so sure about one of them........:-(



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2008
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus209 View Post
    Riana,
    are there any qualified (barefoot) trimmers near you? That may be a direction you could consider.
    I have no idea. I wouldn't even know where to look.

    We tried this horse barefoot. She got very, very sore, very, very quickly. She is really a wimp and is super intolerant of hurting anywhere (which is why she's so upset right now and trying to nail me!) There is no "well, she'll be a bit sore and she'll get over it" with her. She is Not Okay with being sore.

    Maybe boots would work? I just don't know anything about them.

    I am not opposed to having her barefoot for a bit, but we would HAVE to manage the transition differently than "pull the shoes and see how she does."



Similar Threads

  1. How to take good pictures of feet?
    By Karosel in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: Dec. 21, 2011, 09:14 AM
  2. Replies: 13
    Last Post: Apr. 8, 2011, 03:59 PM
  3. Replies: 203
    Last Post: Feb. 2, 2007, 12:05 PM
  4. She's here--pictures on page 4
    By Simkie in forum Off Course
    Replies: 123
    Last Post: Nov. 14, 2003, 07:44 PM
  5. Replies: 161
    Last Post: Jun. 16, 2003, 03:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •