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  1. #1
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    Default BACK TO THE 2.5 YR. OLD WITH ODD BLOODWORK/UPDATE

    I did not have time to search for the original thread but, for those of you that had thoughts I wanted to share the recent blood results.

    a few weeks ago she was
    slightly anemic
    slightly low thyroid (been going on for 6 months)
    slightly low blood protein.

    we then did Sel/E test and IR testing.

    IR related values normal (thankfully!!)
    E, low
    Sel. normal

    so, we are going to put her on additional E. Vet wants to wean off Thyroid slowly (put on my other vet) becuase physically she looks OK and she is so young.

    We really have no idea what is causing the other abnormalities....we are thinking maybe an allergy. I am going to keep her on a very low amount of the TC and try to wean her off and add a ration balancer to the hay pellets.

    She also has some scabs on her belly and between front legs along with a really itchy tail. The tail has been a problem since I bought her in the spring.

    She is currently on (most of it just started about 1 week ago and I do see less itching):
    1 1/4 scoop (3 qts) tim/grass pellets
    1/4 TC growth (for flavor)
    1.5 qts beet pulp
    u-gard for possible ulcer
    msm (very itchy)
    wheat germ oil fortified (for dry itchy coat)
    b-tonic/with iron (also contains other vitamins) from Med vet
    continuex



  2. #2
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    If you weren't in on the "adult onchocerca" thread and the double-dosing with Equimax, you might want to read that and consider it
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    If you weren't in on the "adult onchocerca" thread and the double-dosing with Equimax, you might want to read that and consider it
    my vet is totally against double dosing with ivermectin products..and so is my other vet. I did give her 1 equimax on the first day of the past 2 months though. the only thing that followed the second was the itchy tummy but, the tail has never changed. Just randomly itchy since day one.

    Her fecal is clean but, I know that does not mean she is worm free so we will monitor and possibly power pak.



  4. #4
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    Oh yes, you were on that thread, I remember now

    I still don't understand your vet's reasoning, given that a double dose is well within the safety margin of both ivermectin and praziquantel.

    As you know, NTWs will not show in a fecal.

    Oh well, that's my suggestion, given ALL the symptoms you describe
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Oh yes, you were on that thread, I remember now

    I still don't understand your vet's reasoning, given that a double dose is well within the safety margin of both ivermectin and praziquantel.

    As you know, NTWs will not show in a fecal.

    Oh well, that's my suggestion, given ALL the symptoms you describe
    The vet currently involved thinks that 1 wormer is enough and too much of this can build a tolerance. And the mare is about 900 pounds so she is getting the full tube which if i recall is for 1300 which does give her a little extra With what she's been given, the continuex and a possible power pak I would think it should kill off any worms....

    how does the vit. E down correlate with worms. I'm just asking as I have not spoken to my vet about that and don't know. Thanks



  6. #6
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    Two of mine have gotten really itchy on the TC growth. I'm weaning them off of it and onto a lower protien feed.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tidy rabbit View Post
    Two of mine have gotten really itchy on the TC growth. I'm weaning them off of it and onto a lower protien feed.
    interesting...I just put mine on if after the itchy...but, I will keep that in mind for future. Thanks Tidy!!



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSFLandon View Post
    The vet currently involved thinks that 1 wormer is enough
    Thinking something "is" doesn't make it so Sure, NTWs *should* be taken care of with single doses of ivermectin. But, based on that thread, that has shown to not necessarily be the case.

    and too much of this can build a tolerance.
    I have never seen a study that shows that "over-dosing" leads to resistance

    And the mare is about 900 pounds so she is getting the full tube which if i recall is for 1300 which does give her a little extra With what she's been given, the continuex and a possible power pak I would think it should kill off any worms....
    As has been discussed on that thread, there seems to be some interaction with the ivermectin AND praziquantel that seems to make it work better then just ivermectin, at least for the first 1-2 doses. DWs and PPs don't address NTWs either, so they aren't figureing into that equation

    how does the vit. E down correlate with worms. I'm just asking as I have not spoken to my vet about that and don't know. Thanks
    Ah, sorry, you're right, I wouldn't expect low E to figure into a parasite issue. But, I won't say it can't, as I'm not up on whether some type of load (outside of digestive damage already caused) could lead to improper uptake of E.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tidy rabbit View Post
    Two of mine have gotten really itchy on the TC growth. I'm weaning them off of it and onto a lower protien feed.

    Protein doesn't cause itchies. Alfalfa and soy are not-uncommon allergens, and those could cause itchies.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Thinking something "is" doesn't make it so Sure, NTWs *should* be taken care of with single doses of ivermectin. But, based on that thread, that has shown to not necessarily be the case.


    I have never seen a study that shows that "over-dosing" leads to resistance


    As has been discussed on that thread, there seems to be some interaction with the ivermectin AND praziquantel that seems to make it work better then just ivermectin, at least for the first 1-2 doses. DWs and PPs don't address NTWs either, so they aren't figureing into that equation


    Ah, sorry, you're right, I wouldn't expect low E to figure into a parasite issue. But, I won't say it can't, as I'm not up on whether some type of load (outside of digestive damage already caused) could lead to improper uptake of E.
    Thanks JB, I will drill my vet and perhaps another on the DD thing. If you were in my shoes what would you do exactly as for deworming...knowing she had 1 equimax 11/1, 1 10/1 and is on Continuex??? Thanks!



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Protein doesn't cause itchies. Alfalfa and soy are not-uncommon allergens, and those could cause itchies.

    http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/hor...ing-horse.aspx

    Brent Kelley, D.V.M., lives in Paris, Kentucky, and is a contributing editor of Thoroughbred Times.

    Food sensitivity

    In food sensitivity, a generalized pruritis may be more severe around the anus. Feeds high in protein are often the culprits. This is a difficult condition to diagnose and can occur at any time

    Eliminating other possible causes of itching will give a tentative diagnosis of feed sensitivity, but a definitive diagnosis is achieved by feeding an elimination diet for up to a month. This is done by removing all supplements and treats from the diet and feeding a hay that is new to the horse. Once the itching has subsided, the former diet is resumed.

    If the condition recurs, feed the restricted diet again until signs are gone, then add the ingredients of the former diet one at a time for a week each. Recurrence will occur when the offending product is added. Treatment is easy: Do not give the horse the problem feed ingredient.
    Last edited by tidy rabbit; Nov. 19, 2008 at 10:38 AM.



  12. #12
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    I never had a problem with itching when I was feeding Strategy which is a bit lower in protein and I assume lower in soy. Is there a high protein grain that doesn't use soy as the protein source?

    This is TC Growth Ingredients

    Alfalfa Meal, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Hulls, Shredded Beet Pulp, Cane Molasses, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Soybean Oil, Distillers Dried Grains, Whole Oats, Heat Processed Soybeans, Salt, Ground Limestone, Flaxseed, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Defluorinated Phosphate, Rice Bran, Dried Yeast Fermentation Solubles, Brewers Dried Yeast, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Kelp Meal, Yeast Culture, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Anethole, Fenugreek Seed, Lecithin, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Iron Proteinate, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Proteinate, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation Extract, Calcium Carbonate, Selenium Yeast, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Choline Chloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Folic Acid, Sodium Bicarbonate, Sodium Sesquicarbonate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, DL-methionine, Methionine Hydroxy Analog, L-Lysine, (Propionic Acid, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate (Preservatives)).

    VS

    Strategy's ingredients,

    PROCESSED GRAIN BY-PRODUCTS, GRAIN PRODUCTS, FORAGE PRODUCTS, MOLASSES
    PRODUCTS, SOYBEAN OIL, PLANT PROTEIN PRODUCTS, CALCIUM CARBONATE, SALT,
    CALCIUM LIGNIN SULFONATE, L-LYSINE, VITAMIN E SUPPLEMENT, DL-METHIONINE,
    ANISE/FENUGREEK FLAVOR, VITAMIN B-12 SUPPLEMENT, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE,
    RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT, MANGANOUS OXIDE, ZINC OXIDE, NIACIN SUPPLEMENT, CHOLINE
    CHLORIDE, VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, COPPER SULFATE, CALCIUM IODATE, MAGNESIUM
    OXIDE, FERROUS SULFATE, MINERAL OIL, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, SODIUM SELENITE.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tidy rabbit View Post
    I never had a problem with itching when I was feeding Strategy which is a bit lower in protein and I assume lower in soy. Is there a high protein grain that doesn't use soy as the protein source?

    This is TC Growth Ingredients

    Alfalfa Meal, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Hulls, Shredded Beet Pulp, Cane Molasses, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Soybean Oil, Distillers Dried Grains, Whole Oats, Heat Processed Soybeans, Salt, Ground Limestone, Flaxseed, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Defluorinated Phosphate, Rice Bran, Dried Yeast Fermentation Solubles, Brewers Dried Yeast, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Kelp Meal, Yeast Culture, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Anethole, Fenugreek Seed, Lecithin, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Iron Proteinate, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Proteinate, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation Extract, Calcium Carbonate, Selenium Yeast, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Choline Chloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Folic Acid, Sodium Bicarbonate, Sodium Sesquicarbonate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, DL-methionine, Methionine Hydroxy Analog, L-Lysine, (Propionic Acid, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate (Preservatives)).

    VS

    Strategy's ingredients,

    PROCESSED GRAIN BY-PRODUCTS, GRAIN PRODUCTS, FORAGE PRODUCTS, MOLASSES
    PRODUCTS, SOYBEAN OIL, PLANT PROTEIN PRODUCTS, CALCIUM CARBONATE, SALT,
    CALCIUM LIGNIN SULFONATE, L-LYSINE, VITAMIN E SUPPLEMENT, DL-METHIONINE,
    ANISE/FENUGREEK FLAVOR, VITAMIN B-12 SUPPLEMENT, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE,
    RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT, MANGANOUS OXIDE, ZINC OXIDE, NIACIN SUPPLEMENT, CHOLINE
    CHLORIDE, VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, COPPER SULFATE, CALCIUM IODATE, MAGNESIUM
    OXIDE, FERROUS SULFATE, MINERAL OIL, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, SODIUM SELENITE.
    thanks Tidy...my filly is picky so the growth she likes...but, I'll find something else if I can which doesn't have the soy. I am trying to simplify what she is eating.



  14. #14
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    JB, not to challenge you here so don't take it that way...but, there is a recent study about worms becoming tolerant to dewormers...

    I am not an expert...just sharing.



  15. #15
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    What were the insulin and glucose levels? Did the vet test the stool for blood?

    Itchy tail
    is her udder clean? I also agree that she may have allergic reactions to some feed ingredients. Remember too that soy supresses thyroid function!



  16. #16
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    Do you have anything that says that generic protein itself causes itching? I've seen lots of information that says the *source* of the protein can be the cause - soy and alfalfa being among them. For some horses a little is fine, but too much is a problem. For others, any soy at all, any alfalfa at all, is a big problem. Horses have to eat protein. Upwards of 700gm/day for moderately sized horses.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSFLandon View Post
    JB, not to challenge you here so don't take it that way...but, there is a recent study about worms becoming tolerant to dewormers...

    I am not an expert...just sharing.
    Taken in the discussion it's intended

    Yes, lots of studies on the resistance (tolerance) of parasites to chemicals.

    What I'm saying though is that I have not seen any of them point to using more than a full dose being related to that resistance. Under-dosing absolutely. So, if there's something that points to "over-dosing", I'm all ears.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating at all the year-round double-dosing, or dosing every 4 weeks regardless of what you're using, etc.

    Since you are using a 1300lb dose for a 900lb horse on a regular basis, that is regular "over-dosing".
    ______________________________
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSFLandon View Post
    thanks Tidy...my filly is picky so the growth she likes...but, I'll find something else if I can which doesn't have the soy. I am trying to simplify what she is eating.
    Let me know if you do find something. I'd be interested in trying something else too.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Do you have anything that says that generic protein itself causes itching? I've seen lots of information that says the *source* of the protein can be the cause - soy and alfalfa being among them. For some horses a little is fine, but too much is a problem. For others, any soy at all, any alfalfa at all, is a big problem. Horses have to eat protein. Upwards of 700gm/day for moderately sized horses.
    I think we are making the same point.



  20. #20
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    Well, not exactly the same point.

    Simply going to a feed lower in protein is not the same as, say, switching where the protein comes from. I said protein does not cause issues like that - it doesn't. But the *source* of the protein can. A horse can have MORE protein from a different source if the original, lower-protein source is what was the issue.

    It's along the same lines as saying protein makes a horse "hot". It doesn't. But the *source* of the protein might be triggering an allergic-type reaction and making the horse "hot".
    ______________________________
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