[Auventera Two]

Born To Ride - I dare you to look up Ron Alders from horseshoes.com and ask him for photos and stories of founders he has treated in wedges.

The thing with foundered horses is that NO TWO ARE THE SAME. EVER. What works for one could be disaster for another. There really is no way to say that these 5 foundered horses over here got worse with wedging, so therefore wedging is a death sentence, because while you're looking at those said 5, there are 5 more behind your back that DID get better with wedging.

[Catersun]

Just some jingles and was wondering how Killian is doing today.

[EqTrainer]

Thanks Catersun

He is doing ok today. His pain meds have been cut in half and he's looking better than he did yesterday. I just fed him lunch and gave him more fluids. I had to go pick some up from the local vet and she said that they don't give foundered horses fluids.. I wonder why? I think he'd be dead right now without them, he is drinking well but clearly needs the extra to stay hydrated. Healing takes a lot of water! Not to mention I would think flushing what made him toxic in the first place is never a bad idea...

The vet will be back out tomorrow. She is flipped out that I cannot get him comfy with anything on his feet. If he will let me, I might try the EDSS pads again. But like A2, Sid and numerous people have said...they are all different and he may be the exception.

I did find a super cool article on laminitis from a vet in England.. I will dig it up again tonight if I can. It actually addressed quite a few of the things we have been talking about on this thread - INCLUDING circumstances in which MagOx becomes impossible for the horse to absorb and use, and how that can lead to laminitis thru the loss of glucose function. Fascinating read.

[CoolMeadows]

Jingles for both you and the poor guy, EqTrainer. I hope you're able to get some rest - these things are so stressful and consuming. How old is this guy? I've found my old man has become so sensitive to vaccinations as he's aged and every year I find myself cutting back on what he gets more and more. I wonder if it's common...

[sid]

BTW, Boleem has not been vaccinated in 18 months. He crashed with any vaccination once he started with metabolic laminitis, so we stopped them. Lucky for me, I have a fly spray system that keeps bugs out and zilch of a mosquito population. Same with any sort of sedation (he had to have his incisors done) -- big crash with that too.

[EqTrainer]

He is 16. No reason to suspect he is metabolic but was being fed like one anyway, I don't feed any other way.

I have really cut back on how often I vaccinate, particularly the older horses who got done 2x year when they were show horses. We have had a lot of rain and were expecting the mosquitos if fall continued this way so we decided to do WNV. I only do 2 horses at a time, I figure if one crashes then at least it's not 8 of them.

I actually suspect this horse has done this before. His owner told me that he often abcessed in the fall. Hmmmmmm. Just 'lucky' before, I guess

Oh, and to add insult to his injures.. he has a huge abcess that has broken open at his elbow. I am assuming it was caused by pressure at some point when he laid down for a long time at night. I swear, this poor horse.. luckily that does not seem to be causing him any pain at all. But OMG! it is nasty!!!!!

[LarkspurCO]

Just wanted to throw this out there:

One of the vets I spoke with early on in my filly's founder recommended intravenous DMSO. I forget the amount, but she has a dilution she administers with fluids for three consecutive days. She says this is often very effective in reducing inflammation during the acute stage of laminitis. I decided against it because my horse was not that severe.

She has podiatry practice and does a lot of founder horses and works for area rescues (FatPalomino's vet). Let me know if you would like her contact information.

[LMH]

Thanks Catersun



I did find a super cool article on laminitis from a vet in England.. I will dig it up again tonight if I can. It actually addressed quite a few of the things we have been talking about on this thread - INCLUDING circumstances in which MagOx becomes impossible for the horse to absorb and use, and how that can lead to laminitis thru the loss of glucose function. Fascinating read.

If you do happen to find this and can post a link, I for one, would be very interested in it.

I am still in hell over here and can use any info I can find!

[LarkspurCO]

I did find a super cool article on laminitis from a vet in England.. I will dig it up again tonight if I can. It actually addressed quite a few of the things we have been talking about on this thread - INCLUDING circumstances in which MagOx becomes impossible for the horse to absorb and use, and how that can lead to laminitis thru the loss of glucose function. Fascinating read.

I just had a very interesting conversation with Frank Reilly, DVM, an insulin and laminitis specialist from Pennsylvania. I asked him about the magnesium absorption issue and he says that is true. He said people often will see improvement for a month or two after starting horses on supplements like Quiessence -- crests and fat pads go down -- but after that the horses begin to decline again.

He has developed a product for IR called HEIRO that I am trying out on my horse. His web site, fyi, http://www.equinemedsurg.com/

[LMH]

OK Larkspur, that website got my interest!

Interesting product...I hope you post updates on your horse!

[J.D.]

LMH-.....
I am still in hell over here and can use any info I can find!

Will be there on Wednesday; I will call for a convenient time

[J.D.]

EqTrainer;......The vet will be back out tomorrow. She is flipped out that I cannot get him comfy with anything on his feet. ......

maybe I came in on the ass end of this thing; pics and rads?

[FlashGordon]

Been thinking if you guys all day. Jingling for both of you.

[grayarabs]

Ok - so where are the areas of pain in a laminitic horse?
We know of horses that rock back and weight their heels - to offweight their toes - but not all horses do that. Why? I cannot for the life of me grasp the concept of wedging the heels - ie raising them - putting more weight on toe area - isn't that what happens with wedges? I remember the lily pads vet recommended for my horse. IIFC applying them raised the heels. I recall afterwards - after a lot of reading - I wish I had cut the pads open and applied them to the entire bottom of his hoof. With the pads - and shoes - my horse continued to rotate. Anyway - in laminitis/founder - the pain is in the toe area - ie the coffin bone pointing down - the exact mechanism of pain in that regard I do not fully understand - other than by dint of the end/tip of the coffin bone pressing on the sole.
That is putting it rather simply - for the toe/sole - what more is involved?
The heel is less painful - or has no pain? This brings up the detached walls - ie laminia pulling away - much like our fingernails pulling away from the bed. So loading the walls should be very painful to the horse - and cause further tearing of laminae. (SID - I cannot believe your Bo was less painful walking on his walls!!! When out of his stall - off shavings - he was still better walking on the walls? Or did the stall shavings "support" his sole so less weight on walls? Just thinking here.) Anyway, I am still of the opinion to lower heels to take weight off the toe - relieve the walls so they are not weight bearing - and apply styro or boots etc for the painful soles. I think the horse should be out of a stall - walking around - safely - ie trimmed against further laminae tearing - and padded if necessary.

[J.D.]

grayarabs......I do not fully understand - other than by dint of the end/tip of the coffin bone pressing on the sole.
That is putting it rather simply - for the toe/sole - what more is involved?
The heel is less painful - or has no pain? This brings up the detached walls - ie laminia pulling away - much like our fingernails pulling away from the bed. So loading the walls should be very painful to the horse - and cause further tearing of laminae. Anyway, I am still of the opinion to lower heels to take weight off the toe - relieve the walls so they are not weight bearing - and apply styro or boots etc for the painful soles. I think the horse should be out of a stall - walking around - safely - ie trimmed against further laminae tearing - and padded if necessary.(SID - I cannot believe your Bo was less painful walking on his walls!!! When out of his stall - off shavings - he was still better walking on the walls? Or did the stall shavings "support" his sole so less weight on walls? Just thinking here.) [/quote]


I highlighted in red so one can understand that putting the horse on the sole will kill him.

Vertical depth from the ground, in the toe area is essiential. Heel lowering is an essiential in some cases where the horse has heel to lower. Need to be done with rads; before, during and after.

Here is one for ya, about the same as the OP's. Put this one on the soles and one would have killed this horse.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s...3thumbnail.jpg

[sid]

Grayarabs -- Yep, huge night-and-day difference, even on very hard packed ground. In fact as little as a few months ago, in between trims (after he was again sound) he started to look a little sore. Just a little tiny bit of paring back sole that was hitting the ground, had him feeling better the next day.

Also of note, when he was still fairly sore and when turned out into his little dirt paddock adjoining his stall he incessently stood pointing himself down hill. (His paddock is flat coming out of his stall for about 25', then has a rather sharp incline where it joins up with the outdoor arena). I would have thought he would not want to be bearing weight on his toes by standing downhill, but that is what he did constantly. Have never figured that one out. Perhaps someone might have some idea about that habit when he was painful. Also, at that point he had a choice of going in or out of his nicely bedded stall or going out on hard ground. This is one of those cases that was SO hard to figure, and all "normal" methods of treating him made him worse, so we gave him the opportunity to find his own comfort zone...if he could find it.

The bottom line FOR HIM regarding how to care for his feet that eventually made them pain free (beyond diet to stop the "syndrome"):

1) No restriction of natural expansion/contraction of the hoof wall because it crippled him immediately(any sort of shoe, boot or even elasticon bandage in any binding way), and 2) no pressure on his sole from any application -- which also crippled him immediately (even styrofoam, cotton batting, anything).

[grayarabs]

And a bounding digital pulse is caused by..........?

[BornToRide]

I just had a very interesting conversation with Frank Reilly, DVM, an insulin and laminitis specialist from Pennsylvania. I asked him about the magnesium absorption issue and he says that is true. He said people often will see improvement for a month or two after starting horses on supplements like Quiessence -- crests and fat pads go down -- but after that the horses begin to decline again.

Just adding magnesium is not enough - the diet also needs to be strictly controlled to low NSC, if that's what's causing the problem to begin with. If the horse is also Cushings, it needs medication as well to stabilize. See Equine Cushings group for more info

My mini had his last episode in March, thanks to people who are cluless about IR in horses. He's now completely stable again and is doing very well and he did not even get Mg the whole time in between, but his hay was soaked for a while and he only gets local grass hay, with vitamins and minerals, nothing else.

[LarkspurCO]

BTR, I was commenting specifically on magnesium supplementation as one factor in managing an IR horse. I realize the diet is the most important factor. Out of curiosity, were you able to get the crest down on your mini?

Dr. Reilly has a lot of helpful information on his site, particularly regarding proper lab testing procedures for insulin and glucose, and how to collect and handle the blood after it's drawn. I've inquired with two local clinics and neither one is familiar with the handling procedure. When time comes for testing I'll probably be driving the blood to the lab myself.

One vet has advised I put my three-year-old on pergolide -- no thanks. Same vet insists that alfalfa is the devil's own poison.

[sid]

In my experience with Boleem, I haven't found a supplement Mg, Chromium or other anything else that had a counter-effect for very long on his IR symptoms -- other than working very hard than getting the NSC and sugar intake down in his diet as LOW, LOW, LOW as possible. And consistenly.

With no abiility to have a static diet due to varying values of this in forage, I'm thankful that there are a few feed/forage suppliers that finally do provide products that are consistent for NSC and sugar content.

When you buy "specialized" products like these, beware...often they have a "scale" that can run high to low. They don't guarantee the values. The bag might say "no more than"...but have it tested independently and that is often not the case.

With an acutely IR horse they can do well depending upon the viability in the numbers as advertised by the manfacturer...then suddenly then fail on that same product.

Consitency in the values are key. They may not be consistent within their product from bag to bag. At least that's what I found out.

Took a long time for me to find this out with Alam and other feeds for IR/Cushings horses.
Some horses who are severely affected must have a consistent diet under a certain range.