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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2005
    Location
    Richlands, NC
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    43

    Default When are you a professional??

    Hey There!

    I have a horse farm in NC and I have been a professional for about 20 years. There is a young woman in the area that teaches lessons, sells and trains horses and has her own website but still competes as a amatuer. I have beginner students that have to compete againest her at recognized shows.

    In my opinion, if you teach, train and sell horses and make money doing so.....you are a professional!

    What is you're opinion??? Is she afraid to step up and ride against other professional riders so it makes her look good score wise??

    In my opinion, step up to the plate and let the ones new to this have a chance!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov. 24, 2002
    Location
    Northern KY
    Posts
    4,493

    Default

    Yes she is. Does she place higher than your students? If she does, then I'd probably call her out on it. If not? Hand her (and her students) one of your business cards.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 1999
    Location
    Midland, NC, USA
    Posts
    7,295

    Default

    Yeah, sounds like someone needs to say "Oh, gee, how silly of the secretary to put you in the amateur class, hon, you better get them to put you in Open since you're a professional!"

    Usually not an issue in eventing, though... I'm in NC and I almost never see "Amateur" classes at rec events around here......!

    Jennifer



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct. 23, 2002
    Location
    Down Under!!!
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    1,275

    Default You need to read the rules.

    Heidi,

    You need to look more carefully at the requirements for divisions. To ride in a "rider" division, you cannot have ridden at a certain level higher than you are competing in the previous 24 months. If this person you are calling a professional has not broken this rule, then they are within their right to show in a rider division. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Technically, Teddy was the last horse I ran at the advanced level, which was in 2005, so I could ride in an Advanced rider division, if that was offered.....or even Prelim rider if that was offered. There is not a division for "professional" riders and "amateur" riders.

    Christan



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2005
    Location
    State of Confusion
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    1,377

    Default

    Also - to the OP - are you referring to recognized events or recognized dressage shows - because the classes may be listed differently (many rec. dressage shows have an amateur division - may not be separate classes but may have separate high point awards - each show is a little different, of course). This may be creating some confusion.

    FWIW - we have a professional here that shows AA at recognized shows - and she still finishes last in all of her classes............. and yet she still has students. She usually blames it on the judges b/c she doesn't ride a warmblood..... and so on and so forth.

    Still - not very sporting of her, is it???



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2003
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    1,863

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eventrider View Post
    Heidi,

    You need to look more carefully at the requirements for divisions. To ride in a "rider" division, you cannot have ridden at a certain level higher than you are competing in the previous 24 months. If this person you are calling a professional has not broken this rule, then they are within their right to show in a rider division. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Technically, Teddy was the last horse I ran at the advanced level, which was in 2005, so I could ride in an Advanced rider division, if that was offered.....or even Prelim rider if that was offered. There is not a division for "professional" riders and "amateur" riders.

    Christan
    I don't really consider myself a professional.. but I haven't competed really AT ALL in three years. I competed at a HT this past weekend where when they put up the entries list they had me listed under BNR. I actually emailed them and said I realize I qualify for the division, but I didn't think it was fair because in the past I'd competed at training and had a go or two at prelim before. I've been riding since then.. but my last recognized event was in 2005 at Novice. I never stopped riding, still been taking lessons, and have put some training on a few horses. I just didn't feel it was right to be in the same division as people who were new to the game (or kids), but I guess I like to be fair.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 23, 2008
    Posts
    37

    Default Let's not go down this road.

    When I saw the title of this thread, I thought I had inadvertently gone to the hunter forum.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
    Location
    Nokesville, VA
    Posts
    35,516

    Default

    The RIDER division has NOTHING To do with whether you are a professional or an amateur.

    The RIDER division is only about what level you have completed in the last two years.

    While it is possible to have an "Amateur" division, they are VERY few and far between.

    Really, the only place "Amateur" comes into play in eventing is in the "Amateur" sections of the "Leaderboard".
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2001
    Posts
    5,355

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eventrider View Post
    There is not a division for "professional" riders and "amateur" riders.
    Christan
    Not quite. As part of the re-design of the entry forms a couple of years ago, the amateur division was added as an option for organizers. Many horse trials do offer it if there is sufficient demand. The definition of an amateur is in the rules - this year it was for riders who made less than 2500$ from horse-related activities. Next year, USEF rules require that eventing comply with the same amateur rules as apply to the other disciplines, and thus amateurs will not be permitted to make money for teaching, training, or riding horses (read the USEF rules for complete definition).

    However, amateurs are not required to enter that division -- and often organizers won't hold an amateur division even if they have enough amateurs to fill one. You can always enter an Open division if you prefer even if you qualify for a restricted division.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct. 23, 2002
    Location
    Down Under!!!
    Posts
    1,275

    Default

    GotSpots,

    Thank you for the info about next year. This still means that someone can enter a rider division based on the level they have competed within the last 24 months. Because they will now offer amateur and pro divisions does not change the rules regarding the rider divisions for this year. Will the requirements for "rider" division change next year when they will designate am vs. pro?

    Christan



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
    Location
    Nokesville, VA
    Posts
    35,516

    Default

    Christian,

    They already have an "amateur" division "on the books, though it rarely fills, so is rarely seen. That doesn't change. If you look on the 2008 entry blank, there IS a place to check for "Amateur"

    What changes is that, through this year, Eventing had a special "version" of amateur (only applies to Eventing) allowing up to $2500 "pro" income (intended to cover working students or people who teach at "riding only" summer camps). That goes away Dec 1, and Eventing will use the same amateur definition as all the other disciplines.

    There is no change to the definition of "Rider", but there is a small change in the definition for "Horse".

    You can see an advance copy of the 2009 Eventing rules here (though there MAY be other "extraordinary" rule changes between now and then).
    http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2009/12-EV.pdf

    As usual, the definitions of the divisions are in Appendix 3, along with the modifications to the qualification criteria.

    I got to see you ride this weekend, though I did not get a chance to introduce myself.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep. 13, 2007
    Location
    Aiken
    Posts
    360

    Default

    This is a messy, messy subject!
    Directly out of the rulebook:

    SUBCHA PTE R 13-B AMATEU RS AND PROFESI ONALS
    GR1306 Amateur Status
    1. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur for all
    competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as defined in
    GR101, has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make him/her a professional.
    Exception: In the Dressage Division, individuals are only eligible to compete as amateurs
    from the beginning of the calendar year in which they reach age 22. See DR119.3. In the
    Reining Division, amateur status will be determined per Reining Division, amateur status will be
    determined per Reining Division Non Pro Conditions; see amateur status RN105. (For professionals
    wishing to be re-classified as amateurs, see GR1308.2.a):
    a. Accepts remuneration for riding, driving, showing in halter/in hand, training, schooling or
    conducting clinics or seminars.
    b. Accepts remuneration for giving instructions in equitation or horse training. (Persons acting as
    counselors at summer camps, who are not hired in the exclusive capacity of riding instructors
    are excluded and persons giving instruction and training to the handicapped).
    c. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian,
    groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows in halter/in hand, trains or
    schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer
    or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family
    controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.
    d. Accepts remuneration for the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of personal
    association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article to be sold.
    e. Accepts prize money in equitation or showmanship classes. Prize money may be accepted by
    amateur riders in Dressage.
    f. Rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand in competitions, any horse for which he/she or a
    member of his/her family or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, receives
    remuneration for boarding, training, riding, driving or showing in halter/in hand.
    g. Gives instruction to any person or rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand in competitions any
    horse, for which activity another person in his/her family or corporation which a member of his/
    her family controls will receive remuneration for the activity.
    h. Accepts remuneration, as defined in GR808.2.d, for selling horses/ponies, acts as a paid
    agent in the sale of horses/ponies or takes horses/ponies on consignment for the purpose of
    sale or training other than those owned wholly or in part by him/her or by a member of his/her
    family or farm/ranch/syndicate/partnership/corporation which he/she or a member of his/her
    family controls.
    i. For Amateurs in Jumper Sections, see JP117.
    j. For Amateurs in Eventing sections, see EV Appendix 3 - Participation in Horse Trials.
    2. The following activities do not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise
    qualified:
    a. The writing of books or articles pertaining to horses.
    b. Accepting remuneration for officiating as a judge, steward, technical delegate, course
    designer, announcer or participating as a TV commentator, or accepting bona fide remuneration
    for services as a veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator or breeder, or for accepting
    bona fide remuneration for boarding services.
    c. Accepting reimbursement for expenses without profit.
    d. Accepting a token of appreciation, other than money, for riding, driving or showing in
    halter/in hand. (Note: Horse board, prize money, partial support or objects of more than $300
    are considered remuneration, not small tokens of appreciation). (Also note: accepting any
    amount of money, whether more or less than $300, is considered remuneration.) Prize money
    won by an amateur-owner rider/driver/handler in any class (other than equitation or showmanship)
    is not considered remuneration.
    e. Having the occupation of veterinarian, groom, farrier or owning a tack shop or breeding
    or boarding stable in itself, does not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise
    qualified.
    f. Any person who is serving an internship for college credit through his/her respective, accredited
    college program, and who has never held professional status, can accept reimbursementfor expenses without profit.

    Now... I do recall there being something about making under $2500 in the current year and year prior. I don't see it in this section, but I ran into the whole "are you an amateur" issue this year at a dressage show, because I do have an ammy lisence, although I recently began to teach local pony clubs for a pittance. Dressage states specifically ANY type of renumeration, where the eventing rules mentioned this $2500 cap. I'm not sure if people remember, but it also caused a lot of issues at the beginning of '08, because the rules discussed making over $2500 in prizes OR prize money (yes AEC's were mentioned), so that would mean if a competitor won $2501 in prize money or prizes, they would be a pro.
    Like I said, it's VERy messy, so I hope the USEF and USEA can sort the whole lot out before '09! Maybe keep it straight across the board, rather than change from discipline to discipline.

    On another note... Rider and Amateur are totally different divisions and here on the West Coast we have amateur divisions through training and then at prelim it's normal to see a Prelim rider division, although most pros are *kind* enough to enter the open division. These rules are far more black and white than the ammy vs. pro rules.
    Keep your feet on the ground, but always look to the stars!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 13, 2002
    Location
    Azle, Teh-has
    Posts
    7,967

    Default

    It's not a messy subject at all.

    If you make more then 2500 bucks annually in the equestrian world (teaching/training) or have sponsors you don't enter in Amateur divisions.
    point blank.

    If there is any question AT ALL about the above, just don't enter Am.

    Really the only place it may play a part is on the Nutrena Leaderboard or at the AECs.
    http://kaboomeventing.com/
    http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
    Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov. 19, 2005
    Location
    Lost in the Sandhills of NC
    Posts
    2,656

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by purplnurpl View Post

    If you make more then 2500 bucks annually in the equestrian world (teaching/training) or have sponsors you don't enter in Amateur divisions.
    point blank.
    Until 2009 - then refer to Janet's posting. We almost NEVER get requests for an "amatuer" division here.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
    Location
    Nokesville, VA
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    35,516

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tbeventer View Post
    This is a messy, messy subject!
    Directly out of the rulebook:

    SUBCHA PTE R 13-B AMATEU RS AND PROFESI ONALS
    GR1306 Amateur Status
    ...

    j. For Amateurs in Eventing sections, see EV Appendix 3 - Participation in Horse Trials.
    ...
    Now... I do recall there being something about making under $2500 in the current year and year prior.
    That is what the reference to "EV Appendix 3" is about.
    I don't see it in this section,
    it is in appendix 3, but it goes away Dec 1,
    Like I said, it's VERy messy, so I hope the USEF and USEA can sort the whole lot out before '09! Maybe keep it straight across the board, rather than change from discipline to discipline.
    You can see the 2009 rules on line.

    Click on rules, then rulebook, then 2009.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep. 13, 2007
    Location
    Aiken
    Posts
    360

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    That is what the reference to "EV Appendix 3" is about.

    it is in appendix 3, but it goes away Dec 1,
    You can see the 2009 rules on line.

    Click on rules, then rulebook, then 2009.

    When I had to deal with the crossover from eventing to dressage this summer, even the USEF and USDF where somewhat perplexed as to the difference between ami vs. pro status, because it wasn't consistent across the board. This was in July and the new rulebook wasn't out...yet, although I'd heard they were doing away with the $2500 rule Dec. 1, anyway. Sucks to have to go pro because you make $100 a month.
    Keep your feet on the ground, but always look to the stars!



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar. 2, 2003
    Posts
    64

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tbeventer View Post
    Sucks to have to go pro because you make $100 a month.
    Tbeventer, I'm not picking on you specifically, but your comment reflects an attitude that is a pet peeve of mine. Anyone who offers up their services as an instructor, trainer, rider, etc. in our sport, no matter how much money they make, should view themselves as a professional, act like one, and accept the consequences of their actions. Eventing is too high-risk of a sport to do otherwise.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug. 17, 2001
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    Hangin' on by a thread...
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    3,344

    Default

    While in theory I agree with the OP, the reality is that every division, regardless of "ammy" or "pro" is pretty darn competitive. Yes, in the "Open" divisions you will probably find yourself competing against the local pros, BN or LN, on their greenies and such, the "Rider" divisions are usually filled with the people on their uber-fancy WBs that have been in full-time training with THEIR local pro, BN or LN. Six to one, half a dozen to the other. I always enter "Rider" because I haven't competed higher than Novice in the past 6 years, I am truly an ammy (meaning I make no income or receive services from my horses, training, lessons, or otherwise), but I could just as easily enter "Open" and probably still place about the same.

    I do agree that in the spirit of the rules, if you make any income whatsoever from horses/lessons/training, you SHOULD enter the "Open" division, regardless if your name is Jane Doe or Gina Fiore, but people who don't aren't breaking any rules. I know of one person who technically could compete in the Rider divisions, but doesn't because she says that she is a trainer, and makes her living off of training/lessons, so she enters the Open division. That really gets my respect. It also keeps her from competing against her students, which really wouldn't be that fair to them, although it's well within the rules.

    The only person I know of that is breaking a "rule" is this one trainer who makes her living off of teaching lessons and training horses, yet still has listed on her Rider record with the USEA "Amateur". While it's not bothering anyone that I know about, I should be mightily peeved if I found myself competing against her in an Ammy division, say, a championship or something. If this is YOU, please, be an adult and contact the USEA and tell them you're no longer an ammy!

    So, I guess, as long as you play by the rules, then you're okay. Nobody can stop you and nobody can complain. Really, what's the difference between the Pro on the fancy, but green bean, and the local ammy, who takes three lessons a week and has her fancy horse in full-time training? Not much, when it comes down to the scores.
    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

    So, the Zen Buddhist says to the hotdog vendor, "Make me one with everything."



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 1999
    Location
    Midland, NC, USA
    Posts
    7,295

    Default

    Okay, I was wondering where y'all were finding all these Ammy classes at events! As far as Rider classes, read the rulebook, if they're eligible they are eligible. It doesn't matter if they make money teaching lessons. Sheesh. I really don't think there is much if any advantage to riding in a Rider division, you get plenty of folks on packers, or Novice points-chasers, or whatever. And, apparently sometimes even if you put down Open, the organizer may stick you in a Rider division if they're trying to divvy up divisions evenly and they need the numbers, and one might not notice in time to get them to change it...... I notice the OP competed NR twice last year according to the USEA, so that is surely the case.....

    Jennifer



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar. 23, 2005
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    4,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Innocent Bystander View Post
    Tbeventer, I'm not picking on you specifically, but your comment reflects an attitude that is a pet peeve of mine. Anyone who offers up their services as an instructor, trainer, rider, etc. in our sport, no matter how much money they make, should view themselves as a professional, act like one, and accept the consequences of their actions. Eventing is too high-risk of a sport to do otherwise.
    I started/trained a greenie last year/earlier this year, western, to be a trail horse. I fail to see what on earth that has to do with eventing being a high-risk sport, or how my calling myself a pro would matter in that vein. I'm all about recognizing and alleviating those risks, but the above is a HELL of leap...

    (For the record, I usually say I'm a semi-pro, think the whole ammie/pro split for showing is silly, and didn't hold an ammie card for that reason even when I DID qualify for one...)
    Proud member of the EDRF



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