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  1. #1
    Splashy Guest

    Default How do you tell someone that their breeding program is not working out....

    Wonderful person gets stallion, stallion is not approved due to catastrophically horrendous flaw, foals all come out with trademark horrendous flaw also...

    I'm not sure why I have such a hard time with this...I should just close my eyes and walk away and say it's none of my business...but every time I think of those foals and their impending careers as lawn ornaments I think "man...why is this right". Foals are advertised as "upper level prospects"...really...horses without terrible issues have a tough time competing at upper levels...I don't see too many horrible ones that make it to the top...

    I'm sure this sort of thing happens far too often when unapproved stallions, that are seriously unapproved for a reason, get passed off to unexpecting/inexperienced breeders from some pretty pictures. Don't get me wrong...I'm not talking about the stallions that are seriously nice and didn't get approved due to injury, a missing horse in the pedigree, or some other legitmate thing that doesn't change that it's a QUALITY stallion...I'm talking about the ones that people look at and think "yikes".

    These foals are little lives that we are brining into the world...and with economics what they are the world needs very few more useless, lame horses that eat...there are plenty of those without breeding for those traits.

    So that is my rant for the day....it's hard enough to get a nice horse when you do breed the best to the best...if you're starting with a mess then don't be surprised when that's what comes out at the end.

    And to most of the folks on this board that breed great horses...do you just close your eyes and look away when you see this sort of thing going on...??

    Thanks for letting me vent!!!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul. 30, 2005
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    England
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    10,515

    Default

    Nothing you can do.
    Horse Show Names Free name website with over 6200 names. Want to add? PM me!



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep. 17, 2007
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    Cloverdale, Ca.
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    Default

    If your so worried about it, why don't you just tell them upfront about your concerns?
    Chris Misita
    www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
    To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
    Victor Hugo



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2008
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    5,470

    Default

    Personally, I think more people should speak up. I think it is a challenge to find ways to diplomatically point out the flaws in anything, but there is such a thing as constructive criticism, as opposed to just criticism.

    I am sick and tired of the crud that is on the market that is being called FEI -potential, Olympic caliber, possessing fabulous movement, blah, blah, blah ...

    I am also tired of how young most horses are started. They have already been ruined in my book, because they most often will end up with arthritis at a very young age ...



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2005
    Location
    Paris, Kentucky
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    3,196

    Wink

    You could send her information to Fugly Horse of the Day!!!
    Holly
    www.ironhorsefrm.com
    Oldenburg foals and young prospects
    LIKE us on Facebook!



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2004
    Location
    Loudoun County, VA
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    10,412

    Default

    What's the flaw?



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb. 4, 2006
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    2,954

    Default

    You suck it up and don't do business with or support that person's business. Simple. If they thought they were breeding bad horses, they wouldn't be breeding them...in the good ol' USA, they're entitled to do so, even if it is to the resulting foals' detriment. If the foals are advertised as 'upper level prospects', then chances are the people looking at those foals will know what they're looking at and it will be abundantly clear they are not in fact, upper level prospects. Nothing you can do...



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
    Location
    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    4,349

    Default

    Is this a friend or just someone that you know and have become acquainted with?



  9. #9

    Smile MYOB

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Splashy View Post
    Wonderful person gets stallion, stallion is not approved due to catastrophically horrendous flaw, foals all come out with trademark horrendous flaw also...
    myob to do anything else makes you look bad...or worse a "know it all"....the average breeder hangs in for 5 year and hits the road....so at least they won't do it for very long...

    if you cannot help yourself you could say..."wow,he has the exact same <hock,knee,shoulder> as his daddy"....then when they fail miserably and someone says to them "well they cannot do<insert> because of <insert> maybe they will remember you mentioned it...

    I forget sometimes and get in hot water,normally on conformation opinion pics...I have learned better and avoid most postings there


    you feel queasy about saying something for some reason,follow your gut and you can keep them intact longer

    best
    Last edited by Tamara in TN; Sep. 30, 2008 at 08:11 AM.
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  10. #10
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    Jan. 14, 2003
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    Rawley Springs, Virginia
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    Default

    If the breeding program is seriously that bad then the foals won't sell and they will eventually get the message. If however the foals are selling then maybe your assessment is not in agreement with others'.

    If you have your own valid credentials (perhaps a rated judge) maybe you could gently point out this conformation concern and explain how hard it is to breed this trait out of a program. If however, you are are not a rated judge in the intended discipline, I am not sure that you should give unsolicited advice.
    Chris
    Ladybug Hill--Hunters and Ponies
    WWSD? (what would Suerte do?)



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr. 12, 2006
    Location
    Seville, FL
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    Default

    It's a tough call, if you feel strongly enough about it then talk to them, but you'll also have to be prepared to lose a friend. Or worse, some people will shock you at how vindictive they become once you are no longer friends. You may not only lose a friend, but gain an enemy.

    Few people can accept criticism, no matter how constructive it is. I learned the hard way, although I don't regret that I spoke up. Oddly enough, the person involved apparently did take my suggestions to heart because they have made some modifications to their breeding program, so maybe it was worth it, but I now have an enemy for life - a very vindictive one.

    Decide how much it really bothers you, and decide if you are willing to lose this person as a friend, before deciding to say anything.
    River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2008
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    5,470

    Default

    I do think this type of problem is a very tough call and there may be other pro-active solutions that could be developed in the long run.

    I do not abide by the "this is America" (so one is free to do anything while everyone else just stands around and ignores it) attitude.

    As far as the "people will know what they are or aren't looking at" so they will know not to buy it ... that just does not hold water.

    I have seen too many parents wanting to buy a horse for their daughter get suckered in by some really slick dealers and trainers.

    Generally, I think that laissez faire attitude is very destructive to quality.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2005
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    State of Confusion
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    Default

    I think that you have an obligation to express your concerns.

    Just be prepared for person to totally blow you off.

    I have this happen about once a year with a good friend who will lament that she/horses are not going anywhere - when I finally do give my opinion as to why (hey - she asks!), I get all the reasons why I'm wrong and then same old, same old.

    A more approachable topic might be the state of the economy and how "breeders" are cutting back so as to not have a glut of foals on the market (which of course, undermines the "worth" of the stallion)..... hey - its an election year and I"ve always been able to spin with the best of them.....

    Oldenmare for President in 2008 - NOT!!! although I am a better choice than what we've currently got.......



  14. #14
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    Jun. 7, 2001
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    Germany
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    Default

    I'd say you don't. People just don't want to hear and if they are financing it all on their own: It's their business alone.
    It is way different if they ask you for advice though but I'd never tell anybody such bad news uncalled for.



  15. #15
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    Jan. 15, 2003
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    Virginia
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    Default

    What is the flaw?

    I would have to say, if they are still getting breedings to this stallion from those looking to breed "upper level" horses (I would assume his stud fee is priced accordingly?), then those mare owners are seriously not doing their homework. Do upper level mare owners really not look at the other offspring? You indicate that the flaw is very noticeable...so I would assume the same flaw would be very noticeable in the offspring as well...

    Or am I missing something? Is the stallion owner breeding their own mares? If so, have they sold any offspring?



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
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    14,496

    Default

    I will second (or third?), What is the flaw?



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep. 29, 2007
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    Northern CA
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    Default

    I think you have us all curious now - what flaw?

    Without people knowing a lot more specifics here, you won't get too many really good answers. For example, what flaw, how qualified are you to judge the perceived flaw, how well do you know the person, etc. Is the stallion competing? Is this a sporthorse stallion, or a breed stallion, or ? How many foals, and how many also have this flaw? Are you familiar with the breed/type this person is breeding, or are you basing judgement on your familiarity with another type/breed (for example, dressage people look for different things than do jumpers, and sport Paint breeders breed quite differently from halter Paint breeders, and PRE breeders have a different standard than the Lusitanos, etc).

    I'm not saying this is what you are doing, but I do sometimes see people criticize other's breeding programs simply because they want to set their own breeding program apart, kind of a marketing technique. I notice as the economy gets rough, seems more of that is happening. As an inspection junkie, I noticed breeders doing it this year that didn't partake in that behavior in the past. So, without knowing more about the situation, many of us won't want to put out too much advice!
    www.MysticOakRanch.com Friesian/Warmblood Crosses, the Ultimate Sporthorse
    Director, WTF Registry



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2008
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    5,470

    Default

    Originally posted by Kareen:

    I'd say you don't. People just don't want to hear and if they are financing it all on their own: It's their business alone.
    It is way different if they ask you for advice though but I'd never tell anybody such bad news uncalled for.
    I actually agree with this in terms of socially respectful behavior, ...

    .... however, I have begun to change my mind on many issues lately.

    One of the biggest examples of bad breeding, to me, has been the introduction of the Quarter Horse where the croup and hips are higher than the withers .....

    I actually have seen stallions, that supposedly had won National and Grand National Championships, where there was over twelve inches difference in the height of the croup over the withers.

    Many people have begun to think this is exceptable for sport pony breeding and sport horse breeding.

    Something is wrong with a system that allows this to creep into an equine population.

    Sorry, pet peeve. Most of these horses are lame by the time they are twelve.



  19. #19
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    Sep. 15, 2008
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    Michigan
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    Default

    Iron Horse-I thought the same exact thing! Casually send her an email link to Fugly and say something along the lines of how educational the blog is, and that more people should take what she says into consideration.



  20. #20
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    Aug. 26, 2003
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    The good 'ole State of denial
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    I'm in the MYOB camp. My husband purchased a horse from a cracker-box breeder not knowing much about horses, care, upkeep, etc. The things they did as common practice and the things they bred just floored me. They would keep the daughters to breed to the dad. Then they would keep the fillies of that inbred cross to breed back to dad. Dad is a conformational nightmare, was not approved with their registry so they created their own, she queened herself judge and now boasts that this stallion is #1 in that registry. I cringe at it, but again, it is really none of my business as annoying as I think it is. And she sells the foals to stark beginners as beginner safe. Who sells a foal as a beginners horse??

    Anyway...unless you are some way personally affected by it, not much you can do to convince the unconvincible.



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