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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar. 27, 2001
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    Thumbs down The sad state of the US fianances.....

    Im sure all of you know about the Wallstreet issues, etc. Its horrid. Worst Ive even seen it and I follow it very much.
    It has me worried. Are any of you worried about it and how it will effect the horse world, breeding, etc, etc.
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  2. #2
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    Mar. 17, 2006
    Location
    Sunbury, NC
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    Default

    Concerned yes, but changing a lot of things, no. Not yet at least - only because seem panic over what may happen, and people quit spending, etc and it causes a downward spiral. If people would go on living and not get so freaked out I feel it could be maybe mitigated a bit? I am certainly no Economics major though .
    Signature Sporthorses
    www.signaturesporthorses.com



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2007
    Location
    San Jose, Ca
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    5,228

    Cool

    I think this may belong in off course... but I hear so many people say, well we just have to carry on as before! Every one is scared.. that is why they aren't spending.

    Well, personally I work in the finance / real estate sector.

    I have seen my department go from twenty, to two people.. that’s 18 people unemployed, and unable to keep spending as before, of course that was just my department.

    We have watched competitors go bankrupt and shut their doors with out notice (leaving hundreds unemployed), and we have layed off many, many people (I work for a fortune 500 company).

    I have seen a cut in income close to 50%. I don’t spend as much on my horse as I used to. I went from full care, to self care board. All thoughts of a second horse are out the window. No horse shows, no new tack, I am not spending besides basic care, food and vet.

    I WISH I could carry on as before, and I HOPE that we can pull out of this soon…



  4. #4
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    Feb. 26, 2002
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    Up Nort whar tis COLD
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    I decided early summer I wasn't breeding this year. For many reasons. First being that I smelled an economic mess and I didn't want to be caught out with too many mouths to feed. With moves into the second reason, I'm full, I didn't want to gamble and be overfull and have issues with feeding my critters.

    I'm not terribly worried about what it will do to the market. What I see it doing is people who may normally buy a 5yr old may look for a 3 yr old, or those who may have normally looked at 3 yr olds will look now at yearlings and 2 yr olds.

    I've always told people, buying a young horse can be a real bargain. They grow up FAST and you can get an amazing horse for under $20K. Insure your investment, watch it grow in to the horse of your dreams.

    I still see a LOT of really expensive horses selling. The horses selling for over 60 to 100K. They're selling. And the 25K 3and 4 yr olds are selling. Not sure the 35-50K horses are selling tho.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 27, 2001
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    I dont know how this will effect our breeding and horse industry in a whole. That is my point.
    Wallstreet is literally on an ALL TIME low, a disaster to put it lightly. Come on a 504 point crash........ 1 TRILLION dollar (give or take a few hundred billion) to bail it out!! Geeze!!!
    I know there is a lot of invested money out there in the horse industry, so Im wondering how much it will effect breeders, trainers, etc.
    Kinda scary and I think we are breeders and the horse industry in whole is going (I cant see how it wont) feel some type of impact.
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep. 17, 2007
    Location
    Cloverdale, Ca.
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    Appsolut- This does belong in 'off course' but it also belongs here because people breeding horses need to be very aware of the economy they're bringing life into!!!

    I also am in the real estate business ( mortgage broker) and have found my business cut by 95%. Fortunately, I have a tad of income to live on while this all plays out.

    I will not breed in 2009 unless all my babies due in 2009 sell prior to breeding. Most of them though, are sold.

    I want to bring up one very sore subject with me. I'm sure by now many of you are tired of hearing it but my message is sinsere....

    I am all for free trade, internationally, but folks, we really need to keep American $$ flowing in America.
    Chris Misita
    www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
    To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
    Victor Hugo



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep. 17, 2007
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    Cloverdale, Ca.
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    on the subject of horses.... If your struggling financially and have a great horse, you can't sell, consider donating him to a great home.

    I have a really wonderful horse, I've been unable to sell. But he's a perfect schoolmaster. So I've donated him to a school that will take tremendous care of him. Everybody is a winner. The school, me, the horse.

    Be creative.

    Sorry STF. not trying to change the subject. It's just, Times are hard, but there are solutions.
    Chris Misita
    www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
    To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
    Victor Hugo



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
    Location
    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    4,379

    Default

    I am all for free trade, internationally, but folks, we really need to keep American $$ flowing in America.
    misita - sorry - but that is a VERY narrowly focused viewpoint and wont win Americans or American companies any more $$$ in their pockets!

    My sister imports several American made product lines to sell up here in Canada - I do the same. Because of NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) we dont pay duty at the border and that makes the products affordable and do-able to land here at a price point that makes sense, that we can then in turn sell to Canadians

    I have a product that I manufacture here that I am now selling to Americans - again under NAFTA - again duty free. I am NOT taking away business from an American company, I am NOT taking away any of your jobs, I am simply selling a product that is not currently available in most of the States

    So how the heck does abolishing NAFTA help either scenario? It doesnt - plain and simple

    We have tighter reins on our financial sectors and lending institutions - always have and always will. Its MUCH harder to get a mortgage in Canada than it ever was in the USA and we have a higher percentage that we need to put down and if our combined incomes DONT meet the minimum criteria to make the monthly payments - guess what - we dont get to buy the house!

    That is a huge factor, IMO, in the present mess in the USA and has NOTHING to do with implementing NAFTA...



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2003
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    6,829

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    Well my horse business isn't my main source of income. Financial investments is. The market is doing what it's designed to do and if you notice the volumes are up again (great time to buy if you have the money!). The realities to most people is hard if they don't have money in savings to keep them going for a year (six months at the very least) - to cover their overhead.

    While there are people who can't put away alot of savings -MOST Americans can but many don't. They live way beyond their means - living a lifestyle that's only sustainable in a strong bull market situation. Many of the brokers in these investment firms have ONLY worked in a bull market. And I personally feel from experience - you can't call yourself a true financial advisor or analyst unless you've weathered through a bear market well. I started in NY when Jimmy Carter was President - it was HORRIBLE. Stagflation is far worse than what we are seeing now. Interest rates back then went as high as 19%. The blood-letting now is truly horrible - as bad as we've seen but the strong companies will come through. And hopefully people will re-evaluate their lives and realize they can't spend all their money on THINGS and have to put some in SAVINGS.

    As far as the horse world - it will be affected but most tragically at the bottom end more than the top. I'm sure the horrible reports of emaciated horses will increase substantially. I just wish there was some law to prevent people from owning horses if they are convicted of starving them. Putting the horses down would be more humane.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2000
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    9,482

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    Ilona, you took the words right out of my mouth. The economy was in much worse shape during the Carter years - younger folks who were not in the work force then really do not understand how bad things were. I remember the Dow being at 800 points and someone asking me if I thought it would ever break 1000. OMG, what an awful time for many people.

    The problem we are experiencing now is directly related to the mortgage crisis. Too many people got 100% financing on homes they could not afford. There was out and out fraud in some cases, with mortgage agents illegally adding additional sources of income to mortgage applications after the buyer had signed them, compounded by failure to do proper vetting on people applying for mortgages. The end result was too many banks and mortgage houses granted mortgages to unqualified buyers, who soon began to default. Add to it that many people took on 100% mortgages using ARMs, and now the higher interest rates has kicked in on the ARMs and people are seeing their mortgage payments suddenly double or triple.

    Furthermore, too many people are living WAY above their means - borrowing against any equity they MAY have in their homes and whipping out the credit cards to buy stuff they can't really afford. Add to that huge increases in fuel prices, which has driven up prices on EVERYTHING. People are getting squeezed big time. It is time to pay the piper, but no one has any disposable cash. And now the Dems are promising to raise taxes on the "rich" (i.e., the upper middle class, who pay most of the taxes). That WILL affect the horse industry, because the upper middle class is the primary buyer of horses and horse related goods and services.

    We CAN get through this crisis, just like we have gotten through other bad financial times, but it will be painful for those who have been living beyond their means. The saddest thing about it is all the animals who will suffer.



  11. #11
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    Dec. 14, 2007
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    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    Might be far easier said than done but I believe to stay afloat in this very scary economic time is to diversify your client base and not have all of your eggs in one basket ...

    I have always sold stud fees and youngsters to probably 70-90% American clients, minimally to Canadian clients and ever expanding overseas clients. In the last 2 years - thankfully - this has now changed to more Canadian sales, 40% American clients and approaching 40-50% overseas clients so the economic downturn in the States will not affect me really at all - it will be a minor *blip* in the whole picture so I can easily weather the soft next few years in the American economy because my client ratio has changed

    But as I said - perhaps wonderful in theory, not so easy to execute ...



  12. #12
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    Mar. 27, 2001
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    Between the Medina River and a hay field
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    I just think this will effect the breeding/training/showing industry some. To what extent, I dont know.
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  13. #13
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    Feb. 5, 2003
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    2,794

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    Ilona and DY I agree wholeheartedly. What a strange world when the 3 of us are on the same side.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2006
    Location
    North Central Florida
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    Well I can say that it has already affected us greatly. And not for the best.

    Hopefully after the election things will get better, but who can say for sure.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2002
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
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    Well, things have been interesting here. I have had a very slow summer with my boarding/breeding operation. Things were really busy early on in the Spring and then got real slow. Right now I'm only foaling out 3 client mares...maybe four in the Spring. My breeding clients (mostly performance Arabs and part Arabs) are not selling horses at all. They are cutting back hard...well and that affects me. Not a good time I think to run a business based on the breeding industry.

    My own horses are selling..not super fast but they are selling. I am in a much lower price range than most of you but I don't have the same costs in my horses you do either. I own my own stallions and keep my horses myself. It does seem that our niche market for a rare breed is helping somewhat. I'm hoping to winter over no more than 20 horses...down a bit from last winter and hope to lighten my load as much as I can by focusing on training youngsters and selling them reasonably. You are better off to take less for a horse than keep the price high and be forced to care for it. That is my philosophy at the moment. I hope it works.

    I have found myself taking on more and more trimming clients here lately to where I'm now known as the local "barefoot" farrier in our area. I'm trimming over 70 now and just picked up a 26 horse barn. Busy busy busy...and getting busier. Local vets are now referring me also. Guess I'm doing something right! How long I'll be able to do this at 45 years old is questionable...and it does concern me. It's not an easy way to make money.

    I'm also going to get real serious about going back to starting babies for others. I have a couple youngsters lined up now and am going to advertise locally. I will keep my rates reasonable but that income will keep our farm going while breeding clients all hunker down and wait this out.

    I did breed six mares this summer...one reason was that a new stallion (19 years old) will not have that many more seasons left and it seems my best sellers are my homebreds from my first stallion. Our promotion has helped in that regards and I'm hoping to do more with him this winter and Spring...like some dressage shows finally.

    I'm keeping my fingers crossed too that the election helps. I do have a profession to fall back on if my horse business gets hurting too much but I hate to go back to the corporate grind if I can help it.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan. 13, 2003
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    I think showing is going to take the hardest hit. Around this area - the recognized shows - are way down and more people in all the disciplines are going to the unrecognized shows to get mileage on young horses.

    I have no idea what the USEF or USDF does with all the money they collect on shows but given the minimal services - I would say they both have WAY too many people eating at the table and need to clean house and down-size. With their record keeping on performance and tracking horses being the failure that it is - owners can document the results from unrecognized shows to show to buyers and just hit one or two big shows.

    Florida was way down last year in both H/J and Dressage - the jumper classes were the only ones that didn't have a reduction and we are seeing the same around here. But given how unhappy people were with the logtistics, services and extra fees in Wellington last year - I would expect to see even lower numbers this year.

    We decided to keep the stud fee on our pony stallion Popeye at $900 - I'm a mare owner and felt it was fair to keep his fee affordable to outside mare owners.

    And another point on the economic situation - if the next President does decide to hit hard at taxing the higher incomes - it will be Jimmy Carter II. And stagflation again. Keep in mind the highest income brackets can put their money in tax free bonds and go on vacation and wait it out. That means no investing in new businesses or expanding existing business - which affects them iddle and lower class. Money flow slows down and it's a compounding situation that's REALLY hard to dig out of to turn around.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct. 5, 1999
    Posts
    4,777

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    Besides the fact that my husband has cancer and I needed to focus on him/direct finances towards our bills, I chose not to breed or even keep my mare due to the economic conditions/forecast (and, of course, our medical bills factor into that greatly).

    As hard as it was giving up horse ownership, I will admit that it made the most sense for us/our situation. Even when we stop getting medical bills in the mail, I think I'll hold off on buying another horse for a while. If I'm holding off on buying a horse/another horse, I wonder how many other Americans are doing the same? If the buyers are slowing down their purchases, then it would seem that the breeders ought to slow down on their production. If they don't, we're going to have even MORE of a problem with homeless horses.

    I know many of the breeders who post here actually breed quality animals, but there are several that produce mediocre to crappy horses and those are definitely in danger. IF I were a breeder, I would only be breeding one or two mares and only breeding international quality mares to international quality stallions. I know that is how it probably ought to be regardless of the economy, but realistically, not everyone wants/can afford that type of horse.

    Since horses need feed/TO/vet care, you have to factor in the ongoing costs of your investment - and hope that someone buys the horse you believe is worth the price-tag. I do not envy any of you who depend on buyers to stay in business. This is a horrible economy, even for the top-notch breeders.

    I will say, when I do decide to buy again, I will definitely be looking for a horse here in the US



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep. 17, 2007
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    Cloverdale, Ca.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueColours View Post
    misita - sorry - but that is a VERY narrowly focused viewpoint and wont win Americans or American companies any more $$$ in their pockets!

    My sister imports several American made product lines to sell up here in Canada - I do the same. Because of NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) we dont pay duty at the border and that makes the products affordable and do-able to land here at a price point that makes sense, that we can then in turn sell to Canadians

    I have a product that I manufacture here that I am now selling to Americans - again under NAFTA - again duty free. I am NOT taking away business from an American company, I am NOT taking away any of your jobs, I am simply selling a product that is not currently available in most of the States

    So how the heck does abolishing NAFTA help either scenario? It doesnt - plain and simple

    We have tighter reins on our financial sectors and lending institutions - always have and always will. Its MUCH harder to get a mortgage in Canada than it ever was in the USA and we have a higher percentage that we need to put down and if our combined incomes DONT meet the minimum criteria to make the monthly payments - guess what - we dont get to buy the house!

    That is a huge factor, IMO, in the present mess in the USA and has NOTHING to do with implementing NAFTA...
    Your right. That is a narrow focus and certainly won't fix the problems we have now. It just drives me crazy to see many jobs leaving the country and so many now unemployed. Anyway, your all right that irresponsible spending and lending is at the root of this crisis.
    Chris Misita
    www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
    To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
    Victor Hugo



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov. 23, 2001
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    Catharpin, Virginia
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    Illona and DY -- also agree 100%. I lived through the Carter years too...let's hope we don't go back to that (sigh). It is also worth noting in this cascade of economic events since the home lending crisis that "irresponsible lenders" loaned to those who knowingly and willingly borrowed for houses that were way beyond their financial means, and with little savings.



  20. #20
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    Dec. 14, 2007
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    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    now. It just drives me crazy to see many jobs leaving the country and so many now unemployed
    We are seeing the same thing, but most of the jobs are going to India and Pakistan where a lot of the large corporations are now implementing their call centres and help lines at a fraction of the cost they had here hiring local, Canadian people
    We see large plants closing down and being opened in the USA and Mexico with job losses in the thousands as well.

    I dont think there is any concern, per se, with the USA versus Canada versus the USA, but when you start throwing third world countries into the mix where the standard of living and the wages are rock bottom - THATS what concerns me because there is no way around the fact they can and do work for a mere fraction of what North American workers require to live on. And I guess on the flip side, if these corporations dont outsource and dont go to where the costs are the lowest and continue to employ Canadian and American workers, then their costs will go up which will then be passed on to the consumer so I cannot see what the easy solution for this dilema is either ...



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