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  1. #41
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    Thanks Ambrey - I don't see the sense in breeding with a 25% chance of a dead foal, that by the way will probably have a very painful and heartbreaking 24 hours (or longer) of life before the right thing is done and the foal is either euthanised or dies on it's own. For some gambling with a life is worth it but not to me.



  2. #42
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    Jan. 20, 2004
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    La Habra Heights, CA
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    WWID?

    Fly over their farm with a crop duster full of regumate
    --o0o--



  3. #43

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    I totally agree about breeding two OLWS horses except that 25% isn't almost always. Its 1/4 nothing more nothing less. Test and theres 0% chance same as testing for Herda there both very easy to avoid.
    Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.



  4. #44
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    Originally Posted by MySparrow View Post
    I am not up on all of the HERDA genetics, but I would think, given the nature of the problem, that it would be sensible to breed it OUT rather than keep the genetic mutation going by continuing to breed to known carriers. No?
    No. Most breeds have such a tiny gene pool that to eliminate a whole swath of individuals from reproducing is only going to create worse problems down the road. imho, the idea of a "pure bred" is unsustainable in the long run for performance animals.

    Besides, with the genetic testing available today there is no need to eliminate individuals from the gene pool for a single gene related condition.



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by silver2 View Post
    No. Most breeds have such a tiny gene pool that to eliminate a whole swath of individuals from reproducing is only going to create worse problems down the road. imho, the idea of a "pure bred" is unsustainable in the long run for performance animals.
    These horses are all related- eliminating the individuals with HERDA from the breeding population doesn't eliminate the bloodlines, because as we've said only 50% of offspring from a carrier will be carriers themselves. That means there are tons of horses from these bloodlines who are NOT HERDA carriers.

    It's not like OLWS, which is actually the color gene (although it's not 100%, it can masquerade) or even HYPP, which people believe adds muscle. Eliminating HERDA wouldn't eliminate anything from the genepool.



  6. #46
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    Mar. 13, 2007
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    California
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    Quote Originally Posted by silver2 View Post
    No. Most breeds have such a tiny gene pool that to eliminate a whole swath of individuals from reproducing is only going to create worse problems down the road. imho, the idea of a "pure bred" is unsustainable in the long run for performance animals.

    Besides, with the genetic testing available today there is no need to eliminate individuals from the gene pool for a single gene related condition.
    Does this really apply though? You're not talking about any lines being lost, or a itty bitty gene pool like with RMH and the eye issues, where carriers did have to be bred or the breed would be lost. For every HERDA horse there is another non-carrier with the same breeding. Poco Bueno bred QH aren't rare by any stretch of the imagination.

    In a perfect world, where people aren't morons, I think being careful about breeding carrier to NC only would work. But in RL you have people like the lady half a block down from me, a BNT Paint halter gal who has had over 20 lethal white foals that I know of, and keeps breeding frame to frame because the ones that survive fetch good money.

    People will be doing the same thing with HERDA carriers.



  7. #47
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    Any reputable cow horse breeder has their horses tested (mares and stallions). Unlike with HYPP, there is no advantage in having a HERDA +/+ horse. If you are interested in breeding to a stallion and he isn't tested, either get the owner to have the horse tested or look elsewhere. Speak with your money.

    If you breed a carrier to a non-carrier, you can get 50% carrier and 50% non-carrier. There is no chance of getting an affected horse unless you breed a carrier to a carrier.
    Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuvMyNSH View Post

    In a perfect world, where people aren't morons, I think being careful about breeding carrier to NC only would work. But in RL you have people like the lady half a block down from me, a BNT Paint halter gal who has had over 20 lethal white foals that I know of, and keeps breeding frame to frame because the ones that survive fetch good money.

    People will be doing the same thing with HERDA carriers.





  9. #49
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    Feb. 4, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuvMyNSH View Post

    People will be doing the same thing with HERDA carriers.
    I'm not sure I agree. I don't think that Arabian breeders are any more ethical than QH breeders (in fact I think that would be a bit of a stretch - I had to stop myself from giggling just a little bit as I typed that ) , and any well known stallion you can find nowadays is SCID tested - it just took time. Not everyone tested their stallions at first or advertised their status. Now, most people test the stallions at least. Of course there are still people who don't but they are not in the majority. And I have not heard of a single foal dying recently (like within the past 5-6 years). It just takes time for people to not be afraid of the stigma attached to these diseases, understand the inheritance patterns, and hopefully make educated decisions. As I understand it, the test for HERDA hasn't been out all that long.



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlterX View Post
    It has recently come to my attention that a local stallion owner is continuing to breed a stallion that is a known carrier for HERDA. From my understanding this stallion has now produced at least to foals with the disease that had to be destroyed. The stallions HERDA status is not listed on the ads advertising his services so I am pretty sure that the mare owners are not aware. This stallion is a registered quarter horse. I am thinking of contacting the AQHA but I am not sure if they would do anything about it. This owner is not very well liked in the community and has burned many bridges in the horse community. This is not a person that I could approach about the situation. WWYD?
    And this is your business how
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrey View Post
    It's not like OLWS, which is actually the color gene (although it's not 100%, it can masquerade) or even HYPP, which people believe adds muscle. Eliminating HERDA wouldn't eliminate anything from the genepool.
    You don't know that eliminating HERDA wouldn't eliminate anything from the gene pool.

    The human disease Sickle Cell Anemia is horrible in the homozygous form. But in the heterozygous form, asymtomatic carriers are more resistant to Malaria than non-carriers. There's no telling how various genes piggyback on each other, and there's no telling how a foolish crusade to eliminate some of them will eliminate other valuable traits in the process.

    To insist on banning otherwise excellent individuals from being bred solely on account of a TESTABLE trait which will only be passed on half the time at most and requires nothing more than avoiding breeding two carriers to remove all risk of producing symptoms for no better reason than because "some people won't do as I wish and I know better than anybody what should be done" defines a whole new level of foolish. If you are going to use that kind of idiot logic, it would make more sense to advocate the total extermination of the equine species. That way, you could have an iron-clad guarantee that no horse would ever suffer via the ignorance of greed of humankind.



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodland View Post
    And this is your business how
    Anyone who loves horses should be concerned about genetic defects like HERDA and HYPP being passed on. It's all of our business.

    However, HERDA is avoidable as others have noted...it is also the mare owner's responsibility to educate themselves. If anybody is reading this thread and don't know what either of those diseases are, you don't know enough to breed your stock breed mare.



  13. #53
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    Apr. 5, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuvMyNSH View Post
    ... For every HERDA horse there is another non-carrier with the same breeding. Poco Bueno bred QH aren't rare by any stretch of the imagination.
    ...
    If only breeding great horses were that easy.

    This may work in theory, but imagine if High Brow Cat, Smart Little Lena, Zippo Pine Bar, Doc O'Lena, etc had never been allowed to breed. Yes some of these are not the stallions that you are speaking of because they are no longer alive, but we can take High Brow Cat and Smart Little Lena who still have a fairly direct impact on the industry as examples.

    High Brow Cat has been a leading cutting sire for 5 years in a row with offspring earning over $27 million (averaging almost $40k). He is one of the greatest cutting sires in AQHA history and would be a huge loss to the industry - and yes, he is listed as a HERDA carrier on the HERDA lists I was able to find online (though I don't think that it is listed in his ad). High Brow Cat has a full brother named Smart Lil Highbrow who is advertised as HERDA N/N. Smart Lil Highbrow is a very nice stallion in his own right with just under $100k in earnings himself and number a decent money earners, but you will not find him on the top of the leading sires list. So would High Brow Cat be a loss to the industry? You bet! Just because High Brow Cat and Smart Lil Highbrow are full brothers does not mean that they offer the same thing to the industry.

    Smart Little Lena is the only active sire in front of High Brow Cat on the all time cutting sires stats list. While most of his offspring were born before a test for HERDA, he is an example of what a loss a stallion could be to multiple industries. Smart Little Lena is the sire of many great performance and breeding horses in the cutting and reining industries including Smart Chic Olena. Smart Chic Olena showed as a cutting horse and has NCHA earnings (I think over $100k) - then he was brought back as a reining horse where he was also a good money earner. As a stallion he has had an impact primarily on the reining and reined cowhorse industries. He is an NRHA Hall of Fame stallion, on the list of million dollar sires (I think as a $4 million sire), and for NRCHA has produced at least one winner of the World's Greatest Horseman contest. As far as I can find he is suspected to be HERDA N/N though Babcock Ranch does not currently have his status listed. But, if HERDA stallions were not allowed to breed at all (Smart Little Lena in this example) how many great stallions like Smart Chic Olena would we miss out on producing?

    While I agree that HERDA is a horrible disease, and I am in the camp that the AQHA needs to require testing and publish results, I do not believe that carriers should not be registered or not be allowed to breed. Carrier stallions may have a lot to offer the industry and as a recessive gene that is asymptomatic in carriers I believe the key from here is responsible breeding in the form of testing and not breeding carrier to carrier. Maybe that is the rule that the AQHA needs to approach - requiring testing and not allowing the breeding of carrier to carrier. Not that it will happen, but that seems like a reasonable policy to me.



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by catknsn View Post
    Anyone who loves horses should be concerned about genetic defects like HERDA and HYPP being passed on. It's all of our business.

    However, HERDA is avoidable as others have noted...it is also the mare owner's responsibility to educate themselves. If anybody is reading this thread and don't know what either of those diseases are, you don't know enough to breed your stock breed mare.

    Nope none of her business. Just like people breed horses with bad attitudes and crooked legs. You can look down your nose all you want, but really it is not her business or anyone elses. I think it's a pretty asinine post. If she doesn't like it don't breed to it. The breeder is not breaking any laws, and you all are gossiping. Gossip is never productive. Just shows you how people think every ones business is their business - even me.
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"



  15. #55
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    Apr. 14, 2006
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    Obviously, breeders can't be trusted to police themselves. The number of quarter horses registered in this country every year is staggering -- drastically contributing to the horse "overpopulation" problem that so many people of a certain faction carry on about.

    It is bad enough that they are overbreeding "perfect" horses, but to breed horses with these problems is the picture of irresponsibility.

    The AQHA is a huge part of this problem -- playing on people's desires for anything "registered" even if those horses have no quality whatsoever (that registration paper is worth absolutely nothing when a horse is on a truck to Canada). There is no "quality control" in the AQHA. A responsible organization encourages responsible breeding. The AQHA can't be bothered to do that since the AQHA is primarily concerned with filling their pockets with registration fees. Is it any wonder that the AQHA is one of the main proponents of slaughter in this country?
    When life gives you lemons. . .say &%^# you lemons! And throw those lemons back in life's face so that it will be afraid of you and won't try that crap again!



  16. #56
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    Mar. 30, 2007
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    Default Stallion carrier for HERDA but still breeding - WWYD?

    here is some info copied and pasted w/permission. the author's info is in the signature:

    Poco Pine was a son of Poco Bueno who is the source point stallion for the genetic condition called HERDA. Poco Pine was a carrier. This means that when bred to non-carrier mares (assuming no Poco Bueno blood in the mares) the resulting foal had a 50% chance of also being a carrier. Carriers show no symptoms. Carriers, when bred to other carriers, have a 25% chance of producing a foal that has no gene for this, a 50% chance of producing a foal that is also a carrier so which has no symptoms and a 25% chance of producing a foal that is an afflicted horse and will show symptoms....sometimes these symptoms don't show until the horse is put under saddle and in times prior to having this defined as a genetic condition it was sometimes misdiagnosed as dog injuries, barb wire cuts, cougar attacks, dietary problems with the skin etc. If there are 6 crosses to Poco Pine I would have the horse tested. Yes, there are cases showing up and will be as long
    as carriers are bred to carriers.

    The chances of a horse being a carrier are zero if the horses between this horse and Poco Bueno were not carriers. If there were carriers in the line then each horse immediately following a carrier has a 50/50 chance of also being one....so the % of a bloodline does not necessarily equal the risk....ie..if a horse is a great grandson of Poco Bueno for instance he would have 12.5% Poco Bueno blood...but if his immediate ancestor (sire or dam) was a carrier the chances he is also one is 50% rather than the 12.5% one might think. If a horse is an offspring of an afflicted horse it will be a carrier.

    Many people have no idea if their horse goes back to Poco Bueno if it is not on the three generation pedigree. Others, including some vets, have no idea what this condition is and some think it affects cutting horse bloodlines through Doc O'Lena and Smart Little Lena only. This is not the case. Zippo Pine Bar was a carrier and at least one of his sons has been identified as being one also. This is a horse which is heavily used in halter and pleasure lines at least in the Paint world.

    Dorothy
    Colored Cowhorse Ranch
    Lovelock, NV
    www.coloredcowhorseranch.com
    Docs Producer Leo, AQHA foundation bred perlino
    Colonels Diamond Chex, APHA buckskin tobiano
    Ima Streakin Doc, APHA bay tobi Doc Bar grandson
    Muchacho Pintero, APHA sorrel tobi Doc Quixote grandson



  17. #57

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    So Lessonlearned " exactly " how do you propse the AQHA limit numbers? Last time they tryed the courts ruled against them and said its illegal.
    Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by LessonLearned View Post
    Obviously, breeders can't be trusted to police themselves. The number of quarter horses registered in this country every year is staggering -- drastically contributing to the horse "overpopulation" problem that so many people of a certain faction carry on about.

    It is bad enough that they are overbreeding "perfect" horses, but to breed horses with these problems is the picture of irresponsibility.

    The AQHA is a huge part of this problem -- playing on people's desires for anything "registered" even if those horses have no quality whatsoever (that registration paper is worth absolutely nothing when a horse is on a truck to Canada). There is no "quality control" in the AQHA. A responsible organization encourages responsible breeding. The AQHA can't be bothered to do that since the AQHA is primarily concerned with filling their pockets with registration fees. Is it any wonder that the AQHA is one of the main proponents of slaughter in this country?

    Bullshit.

    AQHA and quarter horse breeders are no worse in the ethics and responsiblity department than any other segment of the horse industry or the human population in general.

    There are a lot of Quarter Horses bred every year because Quarter Horses are POPULAR. They are what the large majority of the horsey public wants.



  19. #59

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    The AQHA is mostly pro slaughter because of what they predicted would happen if it was banned. Now its been banned here and you have a whole new set of problems that no one wanted to address before the fact. And yes there #1 in reg numbers beleive it or not if they weren't another asso. would be. One will also be #2, and #3 right on down the line.
    Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.



  20. #60
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    So what would you propose AQHA do, since these bloodlines are so wonderful and popular, to avoid people breeding babies whose skin starts to fall off when they are 2?

    Just say "this genepool is too important for us to lose!" and let it go?

    These are horses with short, miserable lives.



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