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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 20, 2007
    Posts
    25

    Default Europeans are still Laughing-- Message sent to USEF!

    Lauren,

    I after showing back to back-- at the Warrenton Hunter Breed Show and the
    Raleigh Dressage Breed Show I feel that the USEF needs to help us as Breeders!!!
    Please forward the message-- I can send you the videos if need be!!! I have
    some amazing horses that I do not expect to win -- but at least expect the
    time of the judge to look at!!!

    I have been all over this country and Canada as a Junior showing in the
    Hunters. So please take the time to look at my website and my horses and
    realize how much work Breeders take into putting into raising their stock--
    I personally like to break my own to make sure they are safe for anyone to
    handle.


    Danielle Veasy
    Southern Oaks Farm
    southernoaksfarm@windstream.net
    www.southernoaksfarm.net




    WAKE UP PEOPLE-The Europeans are selling horses to Americans- we need to
    stop the fight within and promote Our Horses. First pronounce the names
    correctly of our Sires and Dams and Dam Sires-and Advertise us as
    Breeders-Addresses and Websites and Phone Numbers/E-mail. Let's get some
    Top Trainers to these shows-Judges-Co-Judging--- Major problem --most of the
    Trainers do not go to the Breed Shows and Watch! We need them there!!!
    Judging will always be political but the least they should give us is the
    time to watch our entry-I have a video of the judge not watching us at
    all!!! We have some amazing horses in the Hunters and Dressage and I am
    sure the Jumpers - we just need an Organization that will help Promote the
    USA!



    The cost of importing is at an all time high-- Let's take advantage of the
    situation and reverse the situation-the Europeans should be importing our
    amazing stock to their Country-Do not overlook the fact of what a
    thoroughbred is-the Europeans have Not --they are still looking for Refining
    Stallions-The Random House Dictionary has listed the thoroughbred as: any
    breed of racehorses originally developed by crossing Arabian stallions with
    European mares.



    www.SouthernOaksFarm.net

    www.SouthernOaksFarm@windstream.net



    Others are laughing at us-when we should be laughing at ourselves!!!

    Seeing is Believing and Believing is Seeing -Don't forget to Look in the
    Mirror!!!

    Tomorrow may be your last-so Ride into the Sunset!!!



    Danielle Lauren Farr-Veasy

    Danielle Veasy
    Southern Oaks Farm
    southernoaksfarm@windstream.net
    www.southernoaksfarm.net



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2005
    Location
    near historic Gettysburg PA
    Posts
    2,679

    Default

    Um not ONE of your mares is even BY a stallion that stood on american soil.. All of the offspring are registered with FOREIGN Associations, or with an Assoc whose owner LIVES in Europe. Stop sending your own money overseas first... then preach

    More will listen if you walk the walk
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
    Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
    Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
    Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2004
    Location
    Loudoun County, VA
    Posts
    10,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRoseFarm View Post
    Um not ONE of your mares is even BY a stallion that stood on american soil.. All of the offspring are registered with FOREIGN Associations, or with an Assoc whose owner LIVES in Europe. Stop sending your own money overseas first... then preach

    More will listen if you walk the walk
    Why on earth would you attack another US breeder, let alone one who evidently consistently breeds her mares to stallions that stand here in the U.S., and in addition apparently has a number of horses that were bred and born right here in Virginia (as indicated by the VT / Virginia Tech designation)? I am not going to comment on the letter but I think your response is gratuitously vitriolic. I guess mareowners whose mares have European bloodlines are not welcome to breed to your stallion?



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2005
    Location
    near historic Gettysburg PA
    Posts
    2,679

    Default

    I am entitled to an occasional bout of PMS. You may read my statement as an attack, but I don't. I have been in this a lonnnnnnnggg time, I have seen both sides of alot and I think she is right about several things,
    1. The Europeans are laughing at Americans
    2. WAKE UP PEOPLE

    And, honestly I believe it is too late for the horses, too many were too clueless for too long. Americans have long been too "Instant Gratification Oriented" to see or care about a long term , bigger picture.

    This breeder says buy in the US, yet send her registration/memberships monies overseas?

    For one it funds a ( basically) dead Euro-association living like a tick off it's American income.

    A GOOD HORSE IS A GOOD HORSE, and we are making great ones, we have a different set of issues here, a giant disconnect, and still alot of cluelessness, so IMHO its snowballed out of control.

    It is going to get more interesting yet, the upper end is NOT affected by the economy, the slaughter , or the many other issues many of us face, so they will continue to spend their money wherever they want.

    Now, for the ponies, there might still be time, we have better ponies here than in Europe, BUT WE ARE ALSO TOO CLUELESS to see THAT, and way too disconnected to Internationally PROMOTE that we have been breeding the best ponies in the world for many years. We are now spending money overseas on ponies, to get laughed at more, when that monies would be better spent for the good of all promoting what we have had ALL ALONG.

    I stand by my original thoughts, She wants to change things, then she should seriously consider her thoughts and corresponding actions. If everyone considered more SELFLESSLY how their own decisions affect support for the entire US Sport Horse industry.. there might be a chance for more change.

    I am not saying we do not need diversity in the gene pool, that we should not import what is needed, but we SHOULD encourage our trainers, clients, etc to look harder within the US, and we should support any and all change that supports US horses....and that takes money...

    Money that could be used to promote an international market of US bred horses to other countries. Oh that's right, the US is too disconnected to have THAT large a vision...

    And now I am finished my rant. My apologies Danielle, nothing personal.
    Last edited by MagicRoseFarm; Sep. 4, 2008 at 03:21 AM.
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
    Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
    Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
    Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2001
    Location
    Prince Albert
    Posts
    192

    Default Hmm....pity...only in Europe you say??

    It is a North America "thing"....we all left there....now we all want to buy from there...very interesting..chuckle. I truly believe there are some great horses in NA....and we should still select to bring top breeding stock over to add to our gene pool....but why all the geldings? Do we have a tax here for luxury items like Europe, and bringing a gelding brings more prestige? Truly, some people still labour under the belief that if they register off-shore..their horses are worth more. But, the truth...once it's under saddle...import or domestic...it has to have what the buyer wants. There are more imported horses around that are begging for homes than you think...cause they didn't work out....etc...just like any other horse you buy. But, when you buy at home, you save airfare, quarantine,etc.
    I think when you talk to some of the people who have immigrated here, and chose now to register within the country they are now citizens of....they are who you should talk to. They bring breeding knowledge, sometimes from many generations, and bloodstock with them that are good. If our registries are good enough for them, why aren't they good enough for us?
    Some of the older stallions that are no longer bringing the breedings in Europe...cause their son's replaced them in popularity....or they aren't the soup du jour....have been imported....what do you mean we haven't had good stallions? What about the stallions that Iron Springs, Hillside Farm, and Rainbow Equus Meadows have...just to name a few....that have really brought us good horses....so I should snub them and buy frozen from Europe? Sometimes...I think it's like moving up from the Lexus to the Lincoln, cause the neighbour has one....oops...guess I should say from the Lincoln to the Volvo or BMW or Mercedes...It peeves me too. Here in Canada we have 3 registries. Canadian Warmblood, Canadian Sporthorse, Canadian Trakehner....then all the Euro books visit too. I am proud of what NA breeders are building....and support the breeding registry of my country. And yes, we have had some imported horses to help bring our stock up a notch...sooner rather than later for the bloodlines...wish we were small countries where it's easy to get to a show, an inspection, a stallion testing...but we have a lot of miles to cover and I think NA is doing a darn good job of producing better and better horses all the times! So stand up and cheer for our breeders who take it all on the chin...so the riders can have great horses tomorrow.
    Charmaine
    Apex Farms
    www.apexfarmsandappraisal.com



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2004
    Location
    Loudoun County, VA
    Posts
    10,431

    Default

    Re why people import geldings versus top breeding stock: people import geldings as riding horses because it is SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive to bring them in than to bring a mare or stallion, and a pro or ammie bringing a riding horse in probably doesn't care about breeding that horse. BREEDERS bring in mares and stallions.

    Magic Rose, I understand your frustration and accept that you intended to speak to the challenges faced by the US breeding industry and some of the possible reasons for that rather than to criticize a particular breeder. Thank you for taking the time to clarify. As you pointed out, it is important that US breeders stick together. I don't personally agree that registries are the answer one way or the other, but I do agree that fundamentally we need to be supportive of eachother and recognize and respect the excellent quality being produced right here.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul. 20, 2007
    Posts
    25

    Default In Reply to Magic Rose

    Again I would rather not fight with other American Breeders-- I am always trying to help unite us and I tell clients when they come to look at my horses I will set up other visits to look at horses in the area-- and I do not expect commissions for this. Business begets Business-- A contact is a contact -- If I do not have something this time maybe I will next time.

    I purchased all my Broodmares in this country the USA! (Magic Rose—I have 4 Mares that are Breed and if I am not mistaken only 1 was by a European Stallion). And I try and find stallions that stand in the USA as well. I am not saying no one should ever go to Europe to buy horses and that we should never import or import semen.

    I am hoping the USEF can help figure out a way to bring the top trainers to some of the Big Breed Shows or at least the Breed Show Finals—and at the end of the day they can take a look at what is in the show ring and decide for themselves what if anything they would like to inquire about. The Sallie B. Wheeler/USEF Hunter Breeding Championship put out a nice booklet—but left out e-mails/phone numbers and websites. Maybe I am dreaming but if we had some top trainers looking at horses in the ring with this information – they could take notes and call the owner if they are interested in the horse.

    SouthernOaksFarm.net



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2006
    Location
    Southampton, NJ
    Posts
    27

    Default

    So I don’t post much but I would like to respond to this thread. Suregood, yes I am sure that your horses are very nice but big name trainers are not interested in breed shows or young stock, they want made horses! First, because a lot of trainers don’t know how to bring along a young horses from the start and second they probably cannot sell that horse to one of their clients right away because again most ammy and juniors cannot ride young horses. People buy riding horses in Europe because they are made horses with a good foundation and they are easy to ride. The problem here is not the breed shows or the breeders it’s we don’t have a good development program for young horses from when they are stated under saddle to when they get the experience to be a good made horse for a junior or ammy
    And the really good horses always sell! We had two good horses that were exported to Europe and that are now competing grand prix over there!!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2004
    Location
    Elizabethtown, KY
    Posts
    2,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ManuelBreedingFarm View Post
    trainers are not interested in breed shows or young stock, they want made horses! First, because a lot of trainers don’t know how to bring along a young horses from the start and second they probably cannot sell that horse to one of their clients right away because again most ammy and juniors cannot ride young horses. People buy riding horses in Europe because they are made horses with a good foundation and they are easy to ride. The problem here is not the breed shows or the breeders it’s we don’t have a good development program for young horses from when they are stated under saddle to when they get the experience to be a good made horse for a junior or ammy
    AMEN!! I am trying to be the middle man for myself, bringing them along, etc, but this is definitely a BIG part of the problem. I have a green horse from Europe who has barely been ridden and she is still MUCH better trained and started than any of my other horses. They have a system that works, and it is cheaper for them to show horses, so people will continue to go to Europe to buy show horses until we can figure out a way to offer the equivalent.
    Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

    http://www.halcyon-hill.com



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
    Location
    Charles Town, WV
    Posts
    6,637

    Default

    Absolutely right. Here, EVERYTHING is on the breeder. In Europe, mid-level trainers buy youngstock, start them, start their show careers, and sell them on to the next level of rider/trainer. Here it is all on the breeders. Breeding is expensive and we still have the onus of starting them, showing them (to get them started) and finally, hopefully selling them. Hardly anyone wants an unstarted horse, and even trainers/agents don't want to take a chance on a green horse - because their clients just. can't. ride that well. Even the rider's upbringing in Europe is better. They start with lessons and learn how to do it right in the first place. Our own giverning body, the USEF, as noted doesn't help at all. In fact, they have given seminars on how to buy a horse overseas. How about a seminar on how to buy a horse here?

    We now are producing foals that are the absolute equivalent of any foal you can buy in Europe, but we have to raise them and start them ourselves. The one thing I want to be sure of when anyone expresses an interest in one of my foals is do they have any experience with foals. I will not sell one just on the cuteness factor.

    We are finally starting to get a cadre of riders/trainers interested in the Young Horse Tests, but trainers do NOT buy horses - they have to try to talk sponsors into buying them for them. This is a looooooooonnnnnnnnnggggggg way from what happens in Europe with a lot of Young Horse Prospects being bought up by a raising/starting farm and the Head Trainer, a specialist in Young Horse training and Tests, starting and then selling them on.

    I get sooooooooooo tired of some people who want to throw the baby out with the bath water. When we start beating the Europeans BIG TIME in the World Cup, the WEG and the Olympics, THEN we can start talking about isolationism and keeping it all here. Up 'til now, I haven't seen that.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  11. #11
    Join Date
    May. 9, 2008
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    518

    Default

    I am not a breeder, nor am I American, so feel free to hit "ignore" at any time, but I wanted to let you know that we are having similar problems here (South Africa) in trying to create a good SA Sports horse that can compete with the European horses.

    It's only recently that breeders here have started to realise the value of a really good broodmare. Many of our best broodmares are imported and we still import semen to put onto them, but the progeny, as it's born here, are eligible for registration as SA Warmbloods and from THEM you get the start of good local stallions and mares.

    I think the problem many breeders have is that they need to sell in order to afford to breed (particularly when you're importing semen). Then sell intelligently. And buy intelligently. One of my friends has stopped spending money importing semen to put into local mares. He now goes to Europe and buys mares (young ones, mainly 3yo) in foal to good stallions. He may only get two foals a year, but he gets the mares with them, and they're GOOD mares and foals. He can then put those same mares back to good semen (either local or international) or break them and ride them. With luck, the foals are fillies and they can be similarly well bred.

    There is no point going "local is better" unless it actually IS. And sometimes, to make local better, you need to use what the Europeans have spent a century creating : fantastic sportshorse mares and stallions.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 20, 2007
    Posts
    25

    Default Some Breeding Farms offer Breaking Services

    Back to the original point-- if websites/information where offered in the Booklets published for the Championships you would be able to see the services that farms offer --and would know if they do the training of the young horses they sell.

    There is a great demand for Young Horse Training-- Scott Hassler addressed this issue several times in different publications-- but as Breeders/Trainers we need help in getting the knowledge out there that some of us do this service.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2004
    Location
    on the North Shore, MA
    Posts
    2,058

    Default

    Suregood - I went out and visited your website and really like the 2yo chestnut filly and your place is beautiful. I think the horse quality is here in NA, but there is another big difference between NA and European horses. Obviously each breeder/trainer have their own methods and timelines, but as a rule, the Europeans usually start their horses as a late 3yo or into their 4th year. They concentrate a lot on groundwork in the third year. So in my opinion, in NA too much emphasis is being placed on getting these young horses under saddle. Slow down, give them time to mature.
    Another thing that Europe has going for it is the established 'horse centers'. General areas where you can see quite a few quality horses from different trainers/breeders within a drivable radius.
    Maybe if NA breeders from the same geographical locations could set up shop in a like manner they would be more successful. Many times in Europe if a buyer is looking for a particular level horse, local breeders/trainers will ship in prospective canidates to a specified location for trial. That way the buyer has more than one or two to consider.

    JUST A THOUGHT!



    Just my opinion, not even worth the going rate of 2cents.
    Bridal Sweet 05/28/1983 to 01/23/2008





  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2005
    Location
    near historic Gettysburg PA
    Posts
    2,679

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleer View Post
    And sometimes, to make local better, you need to use what the Europeans have spent a century creating : fantastic sportshorse mares and stallions.
    Very true, but then we need to take the credit for using these horses in OUR own CHOICES, sing the accolades of what we have done for our OWN Sporthorse industry and MARKET them worldwide. To do this takes a Unity that the US ignored for too many years, and (now that there is an abundance of quality) is suffering for.

    It will take sacrifice from all to change this, of some form or another.
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
    Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
    Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
    Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul. 20, 2007
    Posts
    25

    Default Do we really know what they are doing in Europe?

    I know they are saying they don't back them till they are 3-- but they then go out and expect them to be jumping 80-90cm about 3' as a 3 year old. That is a pretty quick ramp up. They do start free jumping them over small fences as early as weanlings.

    My husband is an Orthopedic Surgeon and he thinks that starting them as 2 year olds will not hinder them in the least-- he always says kids don't start playing when they are teenagers-- basketball players might not know where there feet when they are young but they develop the coordination and are able to recover from any injuries very quickly when they are still growing.

    The best thing about starting them as young as 2 is that you get their minds-- they are like sponges.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2006
    Location
    Southampton, NJ
    Posts
    27

    Default

    We don’t do breed show but I agree with you that more info needs to be offered to help inform and educate people about the breeding programs. We do the young jumper classes with our horses and we think it’s a shame that they never announce the breed, sire or dam’s sire of the horses during those classes. It would be a great start to educated people about breeding.
    I also agree that there is a great demand for young horse training program but I also think that people need more education on training young horse and the most important thing that people lack here is taking their time with young horses. Wait until the fall of their third year to start them under saddle and don’t show them like crazy when they are four!
    And sure their minds are like sponges at 2 and its easier but by the time they are six they are burned out! And who says that they need to be jumping a 3’ course by the time they are 3? I know it’s the American buyer!



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul. 20, 2007
    Posts
    25

    Default 3' by 3 year old is the KWPN

    The Iron Spring Farm Cup for Jumping 3 year olds is offered at the KWPN keuring.

    Also many of the stallions do the Stallion Testing as 3 year olds and are required to jump 3 feet.

    In regards to burn out-- Idocus did his stallion testing as a 3 year old and he was born in July-- so if you do the numbers --and he did his test in the fall --he would have been just over 36 months old-- and that old boy went to the Olympics as Courtney's reserve horse.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2006
    Location
    Southampton, NJ
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Okay, but I still believe that starting a horse at two is too soon for a warmblood, they mature so late. We don't touch our horses until they are three and I know that in europe they don't ride them until they are three. Alot of them will breed their three year old mares and then start them at four.
    But everyone has their own way of doing things!!



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep. 29, 2007
    Location
    Northern CA
    Posts
    1,616

    Default

    This topic comes up often. It is true, American breeders are struggling, partly with an image problem. For some reason, everyone thinks quality is better overseas. People want to say "my horse is imported" - there is a special "aura" to an import. But, as the dollar falls, and transport costs rise, maybe economic reality will help us.

    One thing we really struggle with - and a few have already pointed this out - is that the breeder carries the whole burden. It is very costly to put quality babies on the ground - and then to keep them for 3 years, pay to get them started, then market them. And the US is a huge and diverse country - so we don't have ability to pool our horses and resources for marketing (which is just about as expensive as getting the kids going under saddle!). We also don't have people who want and are good at starting youngsters.

    The whole thing is a bit of a vicious cycle that needs to be broken - we need buyers/trainers to recognize there is quality here in the US; we need breeders to work together, not against each other; and we need people who want to start and resell youngsters.

    I know many people who HAVE imported horses - and ultimately, they didn't get such a great deal. Many of the horses were not as well trained as hoped for (huge difference between auction riding and long term riding), many had major soundness issues, many turned out to be pretty brain fried. I don't think the overseas sellers send their best to the US - they see most Americans as a great source of income.

    And, as for using overseas bloodlines, I do think it is a good thing that some of the breeders have been able to bring good quality names in to the US - we don't have to start from scratch. We can use those bloodlines and build our own breeding programs from there. But we need to break the cycle mentioned above. And we have some unique challenges in a HUGE country with great diversity.

    I think the conversations that start on these boards is a start...
    www.MysticOakRanch.com Friesian/Warmblood Crosses, the Ultimate Sporthorse
    Director, WTF Registry



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
    Location
    Western South Dakota
    Posts
    2,529

    Default

    Interesting discussion. Many of you are making many valid points, but still I am left wondering, "what is an American breeder to do??".

    We don't have any imported mares. Our older stallion is USA born. Our young one is imported because those bloodlines wearn't available in the USA.

    We raise and start our youngsters the European way and sell (mostly) well started under saddle horses. Most of them go to "serious" ammys.

    BUT, we do give our money to a German Verband. RPSI. Why? Because if we call our horses "American Warmbloods" many people will simply pass us by. We would LOVE to keep our money at home, but how??

    Our German registry has treated us well. They come to us each year, something that is very important to anyone who breeds more than 2 foals each year. We are simply too far away to haul mares and foals to inspections.

    I don't think we are the only ones in this situation. And I don't have any answers.



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