[TheHorseProblem]

well... as my trainer tells me over and over.... he wishes that he had gone slower with his FEI horses, rather than faster.

and as for why not? because you are asking her to do things she cant do in the correct manner... to do 3rd level she needs collection and she doens't have any.

sure, she can do the movements in a very hunterish way - but she isn't collected and by being not collected you risk the chance of injuring her as she is still quite on the forehand.

dressage is about more than just doing the movements - it is about doing them correctly and the horse going in a certain way.

all of this isnt to say that she wont be able to or to excel at dressage - you are pushing her too fast and she has not built the proper muscles or way of going yet.
'

mbm, read the preceeding 6 pages of back and forth about what makes a dressage horse. That should satisfy your need to have a discussion about what is proper or certain. As for me, I just wanted to see this adorable, unusually tractable pony strutting her stuff.

It's not the Olympics.

[mbm]

i am not arguing about what makes a "dressage horse" what i am saying is that for a horse to working 3rd level correctly, the *must* be showing collection. this pony is not - she is in horizontal balance. there is no issues with that it just is not 3rd level work.

and no, it isnt the olympics... i am not sure what the olympics have to do with anything?

if this rider had said - look at my flat work i am a hunter i would of said - nice job.

however, she said look here is my 3rd level work for dressage - and i am saying no - she isnt ready for that level of (dressage) work yet because she shows no collection, of carrying power etc.

[twofatponies]

here is a video of a former barn-mate of mine. A welsh/morgan pony, about 14 hands but not over and maybe shorter than that, rider is about 5'6 or 5'7. He is competing PSG this year in Florida.

He used to be a driving pony but made the switch several years ago. He also did the Dressage Pony Demo at Dressage at Devon 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ppq2kmHM0

That's lovely!

(ETA: having not read every single post before, but just jumped to "update page 6", I now realize there seem to be multiple dressage ponies under discussion; anyway, the one in the link above is very sharp.)

[mbm]

that vid of the PSG pony is a good example of what i am talking about. look at the difference in balance and collection.

and while 3rd level horse should not be as collected or as much in self carriage as a PSG horse they should not be too far apart either.

just compare the two and you will see what i mean.

and again let me reiterate - i am in NO WAY saying this pony cant go as far as her rider wants to take her. but to get there she needs to gt some solid basics under her belt first

[TheHorseProblem]

if this rider had said - look at my flat work i am a hunter i would of said - nice job.

however, she said look here is my 3rd level work for dressage - and i am saying no - she isnt ready for that level of (dressage) work yet because she shows no collection, of carrying power etc.

She did say that this was primarily a hunter pony she was teaching dressage to because the pony seemed to really enjoy it.

And I am saying, if you read the previous posts, you would know that she is not asking for a critique today. She's responding to fans of her pony who asked her for a video update.

[adelmo95]

I don't mind critiques, but I want to clarify again what I have posted. I gave an update saying that I showed her at third level and told the scores that she received. Do I feel that showing her at this level before she has the more uphill frame will put her at higher risk of injury, no, which is why I am willing to show her. I also stated that she still has more to learn at this level before she is really solid at it. That being said I love riding this pony and am thrilled with the progress she has made over the time that I have owned her.

[mbm]

ok, how can asking a pony that does not have the muscle or carrying ability to carry and work in a more collected frame not put her at risk of injury?

it would be like you asking one of your clients to skip several "levels" in their strength training and do things they have not built up too - the chance of injury is multiplied....

and really, i dont understand the point of showing a horse at a level they are unable to meet the criteria for - in general the rule of thumb is show one level below what you are working on at home.

anyway - what is the rush? i understand you are thinking of selling her so would like her to be out strutting her stuff.... however, showing her at a more approporiate level would show her off more and allow her to score well and also allow her to work at a level she is more ready for. (i would say 1st)

build her correctly and in the proper time frame and she will, l i am sure, excel.

anyway, clearly i am just repeating myself... and clearly people would much rather "see the pony strut her stuff" then care if she is working the in correct frame etc.

if this is the case - why do dressage? why not just do hunters with her where it doens't matter if she is in collection or not?

sorry, this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. i have seen sooo many horses ruined by greedy trainers... it is just a waste of good horse flesh.

[adelmo95]

Well clearly I am not asking her to carry herself in a frame that she is not ready for as I am letting her stay in a more horizontal frame and am slowly working towards getting her to carry more weight on her hind end. I am also not showing for a few more months to give her a chance to get stronger. So am asking her to do things she is not strong enough to do NO. Am I going to push her past third level anytime soon again the answer is NO. Am I going to drop her back 2 levels when her scores were decent and I have time to work on things before the next show again the answer is NO.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this subject as my pet peeve happens to be seeing people stay at one level forever as they become such perfectionists that they are unwilling to step outside of the box and risk moving up.

I can assure you I am still schooling all of the basics at home and working on getting her stronger and more correct. Could I take her in a first level test and score higher sure, but would I really feel like it was much of an accomplishment I don't know.

I seem to recall in your first post saying that you could see schooling all of the lateral movements at home to iprove her way of going etc. so if they can be schooled at home there is no more risk of injury doing them in a show than schooling.

In my opinion there are many different ways to reach the same goal in dressage, some may like to go slow and steady while others may prefer a slightly more fast tracked approach, really what matters is the finished product and I believe both these methods can produce a good dressage horse in the end. I have never described her as a finished dressage horse but was asked for an update so I posted her show results which was followed up by people asking for video of her which I also ended up posting. You may feel that I am pushing her too fast however I know my pony and what she is currently willing and capable of doing and will not push her past that point.

You use strength training clients as an analogy, I can tell you that with them I push them hard and pretty quickly to progress as well but knock on wood so far I have an injury free record for personal training clientele after over 3.5 years in the business.

[Perfect Pony]

I have to agree with mbm and stick up for him/her, I feel the same way. There's absolutely nothing in that video that says "3rd level", you have merely taught that pony a few tricks to get it through the test. I cnnot imagine any reason to show any horse or pony above 1st level until it's at least through, on the bit, and moving forward.

I've seen horses score in the 50s at 4th level and above that horrified me as well. Scoring in the 50s is pretty much a gimme score for doing tricks and not jumping out of the ring.

Cute pony, I'd love to see a 12 year old on it putting around the hunter ring.

[tempichange]

You can push hard, but the question is not a question of how hard, but a question of fair. Is it fair to push her at this stage of the game for a level that is meant to be a big stepping stone for FEI? IMHO, no.

I've held my myself on this thread for sometime. As a pony rider, I was enthusiastic that another talented pony has come through the ranks. But when I saw the tape, and photo(s), I became really disappointed.

Yes, while there are riders who can develop an upper level horse or pony quickly and carefully, those people are few, usually with a lot of experience at the upper levels. Just because you have a clean change and a form of a half pass means that you can go third, doesn't mean you should.

Talking from experience, I didn't understand how hard it was to prepare my pony for the challenges that are the bedrock of the FEI until I was preparing for it. Like you, all I saw was the movements (and how I could get a cool basic movement instead of the refined stuff I have now), instead of seeing each movement as a development question.

Talking as a wee-tiny breeder, I think it's an asset to have a proven mare, and it is a massive let down that owners show their mares without the thought that these scores are lifetime recorded. It's great to know that the mare is shown at a high level, but the quality of scores matter just as much. I've unfortunately made this mistake, and I'm learning from it.

I think its super that you can do it at home, but she's not even showing a good medium, let alone collection or the distinction that is called for at that level. It's great that she's a happy, willing partner (and I hope it remains that way, makes doing FEI work that much easier), but to be fair, and honest, she's not doing the work as associated to that level, and asking her is running the risk of souring her and re-injuring her.

I think with time and development that she can be a quality pony. Unfortunately, time is the dues all have to pay in full to earn what we want.

[Pony Fixer]

There's absolutely nothing in that video that says "3rd level". Cute pony.

Word.

[Ambrey]

I have to agree with mbm and stick up for him/her, I feel the same way. There's absolutely nothing in that video that says "3rd level", you have merely taught that pony a few tricks to get it through the test. I cnnot imagine any reason to show any horse or pony above 1st level until it's at least through, on the bit, and moving forward.

I've seen horses score in the 50s at 4th level and above that horrified me as well. Scoring in the 50s is pretty much a gimme score for doing tricks and not jumping out of the ring.

LOL, I don't know where you are or what kind of riders you ride with that you consider a score in the high 50s (I think she said 58?) a "gimme."

[slc2]

"In my opinion there are many different ways to reach the same goal in dressage, some may like to go slow and steady while others may prefer a slightly more fast tracked approach, really what matters is the finished product and I believe both these methods can produce a good dressage horse in the end"

Not really, but there's no such thing as a 'collected frame' that one needs to avoid, either. Collection is about a change in stride, not about how short the rein is or how high the head is.

The problem with what you're saying is the fast track doesn't develop muscles properly.

The problem with what mbm is saying is the slower route doesn't develop muscles properly.

Neither going too fast because one is impatient and wants to leave things out, nor just not progressing because one isn't sure how to proceed, works.

Just doing the same things over and over doesn't lead to progress.

Skipping necessary work that creates the foundation to build on, doesn't work either.

There are really two types of dressage. One, in which one sort of does poor quality tricks as soon as possible. The other is when people develop muscles on horses, they do that by having a program that is progressive, and one step builds the foundation for the next step.

And there are steps.

But they are progressive.

No horse ever progressed correctly by doing the same thing over and over without any steps upward.

No horse ever progressed correctly skipping work that it needs before moving to the next thing.

For example, if I never canter, I don't develop the muscles a horse uses to canter. If I spend ten years doing working canter, I don't develop the muscles that do collected canter. I have to have some way of progressing toward the next step.

I know you are very, very proud of your pony and all the things you have taught her, but it doesn't really sound like you have a realistic perspective on it.

[Pony Fixer]

Ok, Ambrey, I'll bite. A 58%, had the pony gone as in the video, would have been a gimmee for sure. I think the pony is cute and well started, but NOT 3rd level by any stretch based on the video.
*No extended trot. Shows a lengthened trot twice.
*First "half pass" is a leg yield left with the nose tipped left. There is no bend through the rib cage. Second "half pass" might be more correct, can't tell from the angle.
*No collection shown at any gait.
*Changes clean, but rushed and on forehand X 2.

My point, as well as mbm's I would gather, is that you can enter a 3rd level test, you can call the pony 3rd level, whatever, all day long. But the pony does not show 3rd level engagement or collection and therefore is not a 3rd level pony. I doubt highly that pony got a 58% at a licensed show with an R or higher judge, if it went like it did in the video.

Not saying this to be mean, I like the pony, but a 3rd level pony it ain't!

[Ambrey]

Sorry, I interpreted it to mean that any horse can get a high 50s just by going through the motions at 3rd level. I just don't think that's true.

I would caution people that sometimes a video doesn't tell the whole story, but everybody should know that

[slc2]

It's hard for people to understand that there is more to it than getting to the other side of the ring with the horse crossing its legs, or the horse moving its legs and doing a lead change. It takes time, you have to let people develop their understanding just as you let a horse develop in training.

It's not a bad thing to take a willing little pony and try to get it to do some things, it's a good experience, but perspective helps.

[Perfect Pony]

LOL, I don't know where you are or what kind of riders you ride with that you consider a score in the high 50s (I think she said 58?) a "gimme."

I have sat through many a dressage show and seen horses at 3rd level and above that are merely doing the tricks but are not forward, through or truly on the bit get scored in the 50s. I have scored a few shows where as long as you do the "trick" and don't mess up you will get 5s or 6s. I rarely saw a 4 or lower on anything unless the person did not do the movement at all. I actually don't think I ever scored a test lower than a 50 unless the person was eliminated.

[mbm]

The problem with what mbm is saying is the slower route doesn't develop muscles properly.

nowhere did i say "go too slow" - what i did say was trainers that i respect have, over time, learned that it is better to go in a moderate pace then to rush the horse.

the correct pace is the one that continues to develop the horse correctly while challenging the horse appropriately. this takes time - mostly because the muscles need to develop and the horse needs to learn a new balance etc.

each horse is different as is each trainer. but i do not advocate going so slow that no progress is made.

To the OP: using exercises to build the horse. yes, but you don't ask a horse for a 3rd level half pass when it isn't able to collect (the definition of half pass includes it being done in collection) . you can ask it to cross its legs - but generally with a straight body and not so steep angle , then as you progress you ask for one step then 2 steps of HP within the LY - still keeping the angle easy for the horse.

[Ambrey]

I have sat through many a dressage show and seen horses at 3rd level and above that are merely doing the tricks but are not forward, through or truly on the bit get scored in the 50s. I have scored a few shows where as long as you do the "trick" and don't mess up you will get 5s or 6s. I rarely saw a 4 or lower on anything unless the person did not do the movement at all. I actually don't think I ever scored a test lower than a 50 unless the person was eliminated.

I guess that proves the immortal words of the great philosopher Ricky Nelson.

You can't please everyone, but you've got to please yourself

[exvet]

While I think the pony is definitely talented and has all the potential in the world, the rider too, the video does not demonstrate a horse/pony that has met (or even comes close to) the "purpose" as written on Third level test 1 - "To confirm that the horse, having demonstrated that it has begun to develop the uphill balance required in Second Level, now demonstrating increased engagement in each movement - especially in medium and extended gaits and in the transitions to/from collected movements - " I'm going to guess that there were comments indicating that there wasn't enough difference shown [within gaits/between gaits] as well as lacking lateral suppleness (bend). However, having said that I think that if you want to "try" or test out a level, that is the rider's perogative. The problem comes if and when the horse/pony isn't properly conditioned to or strong enough to engage yet does so based on a rider's request and is asked to do so for periods of time that cause muscle fatigue. THAT will cause injury if the animal is not properly built up/conditioned for the workload. The pony appears to be extremely obedient which is definitely a positive feature but if a rider takes too much advantage of that there is a higher risk of injury which could have been avoided. Ask me how I know.

As for high 50's being "give me's" - it really depends on the context now doesn't it? Those of us who ride average horses at the upper levels know that high 50's/low 60's are not freely given especially if the judge adheres to the edict that the score for each movement has a ceiling dictated by the horse's natural movement ie, a 6 mover is rarely going to score above a 6 unless we're talking about the halt, reinback, etc - movements which are not influenced by suspension, length of stride, reach, scope of stride, etc. Then of course there are those on obedient, quiet, pleasant decent movers that easily garner those scores regardless of whether or not the degree of engagement or impulsion expected at that level is reached because submission is perceived - voila you just broke 60. Again, ask me how I know