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  1. #1
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    Default So Totally Different

    The thread asking "What is roads and tracks?" makes me realize how quickly we`re all forgetting what eventing used to be.

    That 8 minute jumpoff against the clock in China-------Not even the same sport.

    Here are the 1973 Ledyard 3-day stats----my first 3 day with Victor Dakin.

    Phase A, 1st roads and tracks, 240 meters/min, a pretty fast trot---3 miles, 151 yards, 20 min, 41 seconds

    Phase B Steeplechase, 690 m/m, 1 mile, 1521 yards, 4 min, 21 seconds

    Phase C, 2nd roads and tracks, 5 miles, 1047 yards,4 240m/m, 37 min, 54 seconds

    Ten minute vet hold

    Phase D, 4 miles, 404 yards, 11 min, 57 seconds.

    So that`s about 15 miles, give or take, to be done in about one hour, 15 minutes of riding time, or one hour and seven minutes longer than the 2008 Olympics.

    How would the horses we saw a couple of days ago have fared? Interesting question.

    The dressage was easier, and the show jumping was 3`11



  2. #2
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    Default

    In fairness quite a few of them were succesful at the long format...but I get your point.



  3. #3
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    I guess my question, Snoopy, is how many of them had that turn of foot, and relentless staying power, that all the good ones had to have in those days?

    Don`t get me wrong. I love these modern horses, but in a different way, for different reasons. The old ones could be desperate to ride, sort of like being strapped to a heat seaking missile.

    But I was 32 then, and still brave!!!



  4. #4
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    Denny, with your astute and candid comments, you are still brave in my book, even if you aren't 32 anymore!!



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by denny View Post
    I guess my question, Snoopy, is how many of them had that turn of foot, and relentless staying power, that all the good ones had to have in those days?

    Don`t get me wrong. I love these modern horses, but in a different way, for different reasons. The old ones could be desperate to ride, sort of like being strapped to a heat seaking missile.

    But I was 32 then, and still brave!!!


    As I said, I do get your point so to the opposite effect of my first post...there are plenty that would not have a snowball's chance in hell attempting the long format....and referencing your first sentence it could not be faulted to mistake that remark for riders instead of horses....so I will go one further, some of those riders would have not had a chance judging how unfit "they" looked.
    You and I share the same opinion on that one for sure.... Back in the day, the riders were as lean and fit as their horses.



  6. #6
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    Default

    I think that going to the short format has put many horse to the upper levels that IMO would not have been able to go that far, or hold up as long if they were required to do a full 3 day. I think it has just opened the door to the warmbloods that have the "fancy" dressage and can jump big, but might not be able to keep the stamina up



  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by denny View Post
    The thread asking "What is roads and tracks?" makes me realize how quickly we`re all forgetting what eventing used to be.

    That 8 minute jumpoff against the clock in China-------Not even the same sport.

    Here are the 1973 Ledyard 3-day stats----my first 3 day with Victor Dakin.

    Phase A, 1st roads and tracks, 240 meters/min, a pretty fast trot---3 miles, 151 yards, 20 min, 41 seconds

    Phase B Steeplechase, 690 m/m, 1 mile, 1521 yards, 4 min, 21 seconds

    Phase C, 2nd roads and tracks, 5 miles, 1047 yards,4 240m/m, 37 min, 54 seconds

    Ten minute vet hold

    Phase D, 4 miles, 404 yards, 11 min, 57 seconds.

    So that`s about 15 miles, give or take, to be done in about one hour, 15 minutes of riding time, or one hour and seven minutes longer than the 2008 Olympics.

    How would the horses we saw a couple of days ago have fared? Interesting question.

    The dressage was easier, and the show jumping was 3`11

    Denny - were those stats, ie the lengths/speeds of the four phases - pretty much the same in all horse trials of the same levels?

    Kind of by-the-by, but I'm just curious.

    I hadn't realised that the show-jumping phase in HK was against the clock, but I noticed a lot of them were fairly flying! It made it more exciting from a spectator's pov, I should think.

    And...maybe it's at least a start as far as a fairer trade-off for losing the challenges inherent in 4 phases of R&T goes; it certainly demanded a combination of fitness and agility, even if not all on the same day any more.

    As for how the horses then would have fared now.........well, the really good ones will always be really good ones, I guess; hard to say. Which is a total non-answer!



  8. #8
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    A short format horse and a long format horse are two different creatures. A long format horse can do the short. A short format horse, however,.... I doubt, no matter how good.


    Reed



  9. #9
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    I`m fairly reconciled to new eventing, even though I hated it at first. If I had my choice, I`d go back, but there are so many forces against it, land loss, and loss of an agrarian lifestyle being the biggest.

    I have a bunch of jumper line warmblood babies, and some Irish ones, and they are so willing to please, and not hot, and such nice movers, that I can truly say that I enjoy them almost more than so many of the crotchrockets I used to ride. But maybe that`s because of creeping chicken-ness!!!



  10. #10
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    Wow, that is quite a difference! What were the equivalent times for the last time LF was done at the Olympics?

    Also, this makes me want to figure out a very junior-sized "Roads and Tracks" for my little mare in the spring. If there were such a thing as Tadpole Long Format, I think she'd eat it up, and it also might make her a bit less of a speed demon on X/C; she shrugs her pretty little Palomino shoulders at 420 mpm and asks for more. I think it would be fun just to figure out optimum times for a simple network of dirt roads or trails.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by denny View Post
    Here are the 1973 Ledyard 3-day stats----my first 3 day with Victor Dakin.
    I came across my pictures from that event not too long ago, for sure remembered Golden Griffin- and maybe have Victor Dakin too!



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by denny View Post
    I`m fairly reconciled to new eventing, even though I hated it at first. If I had my choice, I`d go back, but there are so many forces against it, land loss, and loss of an agrarian lifestyle being the biggest.

    I have a bunch of jumper line warmblood babies, and some Irish ones, and they are so willing to please, and not hot, and such nice movers, that I can truly say that I enjoy them almost more than so many of the crotchrockets I used to ride. But maybe that`s because of creeping chicken-ness!!!

    Not chicken-ness...no...more sense!!!

    Oh and Crotchrocket...well you have to have had one to appreciate that adjective....Brilliant. I had one that was just that and you know, hand on heart you would not get me to ride him today, no way. no how.


    Anyone remember Plain Sailing?!! (not to suggest he was mine just an example)



  13. #13
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    Snoopy, one of my favorite Le Goff lines, describing the kind of whacktoids we used to ride----

    "I am galloping down to the big ditch and wall, and I pick up the telephone to dial the horse-----But there is no answer!"



  14. #14
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    Yes well some of those characters knew their jobs better than we did. I think some would have been offended by the micro-management that is required of today's courses. That one I spoke of, well forget it. When we got to an event he called the shots. It was a time when you could leave them alone, stay out of their way and let them get on with their jobs....and they took it seriously!! Not so much now.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by denny View Post
    Snoopy, one of my favorite Le Goff lines, describing the kind of whacktoids we used to ride----

    "I am galloping down to the big ditch and wall, and I pick up the telephone to dial the horse-----But there is no answer!"

    Kind of like Poggio the other day!



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by denny View Post
    "I am galloping down to the big ditch and wall, and I pick up the telephone to dial the horse-----But there is no answer!"
    Those words ring true not just for eventing at the time.

    Those are the horses I grew up with doing the jumpers. How else did you learn to just sit quietly, facing impending doom and trust the horse as much as he trusted you? I still can hear my trainer yelling as I would come down to a 4'6" oxer on a lunatic TB. "Shoulders back! Sit up and wait!"

    A friend I grew up with who still rides the big GPs once told me, "The reason we are good riders is because all we had were crazy pukes that we had to take from the pasture to the show ring."

    Those were the horses then and those are the horses I still love.

    Reed



  17. #17
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    "New eventing"....yuck....how sad.
    The Woff said it three years ago. "Amateurs will save the classic three day". He was talking to the assembled riders of the Training three-day event. So it will be the amateur's horse...crotchrocket, whacktoid, backyard, dial-a-disaster off track unwanted killer pen rescue thoroughbreds that save the sport!
    However these nicely bred horses that are meant for the sport in the future are probably a lot safer to ride and sounder too.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com



  18. #18
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    Default

    I love the idea of ammies saving the sport....but I wonder.....

    I didn't get to start eventing until mid 40's. Alas, that's after two kids, a PhD, and a lot to lose....so I'm one of those chickens. But I'm working as hard as I can towards doing a training three day. I ride at least five days a week in the summer (sometimes at my hub's ranch 3 hours north "prowling" cattle on my horse over great terrain), sometimes around our flat cotton fields, and sometimes in my ring. During school, that's only three, MAYBE four times a week.

    I DO trot sets. I DO gallop a mile from time to time (the length of one cotton field!). I DO practice two point at all gaits. I work a LOT on transitions between/within gaits. I'm even going to try to get someone to lunge (sp? I never know how to spell it!) me once a week to help me with balance, sitting trot, etc.

    I just did my first two Novices, and we had clean XC and made time, which was my goal. And it was a BLAST.

    But I will never, ever do the long format that Denny describes. I'm simply too old to ride "crotchrockets".

    So...While I will work and fight tooth and nail for the Training Three Day, that's ALL I can aspire to.

    Is that enough to save the sport? Or is what I'm saving a different sort of sport?



  19. #19
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    Hihihihihihi Denny,
    My first one, Bad Bramstedt,Vor Military, 1972, A = 8900 meters, at 320 mpm, I had to trott rather hard and Gallop, steeplechase 3000 meters at 690 8 jumps including a huge natural ditch with running water, C 5000, at 300, ten minutes walking the horse with a loosend girth and a vet taking heart and resp, no groom or anything like that, I got 30 seconds late to the start of D, d=7200 at 570 and had 35 jumps, 40 efforts. One refusal no time.

    When we were back to the stables, me and Fuego ( a Hessian WB ) had to take a rather serious pee, I mean serious, we both peed rather red.
    I called the vet and he laughed his butt of when I told him, mine and my horses and he explained to me to take a short brake after steeplechase take a pee don't hold it in for 2 hours, and me peeing would encourage my horse to pee.
    I have done it since than it worked every time, my favored moment in a 3 day, have a cigaret and pee with your horse after steeplechase, peaceful, relaxing a real nice let down from the chase and than trott to the D box.

    But you know those dressage scores, compared to today, they would be of the scale, they would not register, it was an after thought, did not matter at all because of the enormety of endurance day. That's what the training was all about endurance day and nothing else, jumping and galloping, galloping and jumping and at those rather high speeds.
    Totally differant game today, totally differant riders and totally differant horses.

    Past tense.
    That I have no use for them, does not mean, that I don't know them and don't know how to use them.
    Caveman extraordinair



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by eks View Post
    Kind of like Poggio the other day!
    nope, ...first you have to establish the line - literally....and I ain't nothing, but I know that.

    However, I also know that there are no perfect rides...too bad the Hiccup came in the middle of an Olympic ride. Or, Amy just perhaps came face to face with "balance" and I'm not talking about sitting on a horse.

    Maybe sometimes, you just can't outrun " do what's right". It'll come tapping you on the shoulder at the wierdest times. Maybe.
    ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan



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