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  1. #21
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    I have been to a few rodeos myself and enjoyed them. The ones I went to , I did not see any major mishaps . But I have been only to 5 or 6 in total. But I really admired the skill of the folks who did the cattle stuff-now I am not familiar with what each division is called-but riding horses myself-I would think that requires a lot of training on both the horse and rider.. I am certianly interested in doing some cattle work myself-not competetion, just fun stuff.

    The bronc riding and bull riding -well if there is any abuse, I think probably the riders end up with broken bones/injuries more often than the animals??
    I think it is nice for us urban folks wannabe cowboys/cowgirls to at least look at those things. If there is abuse it should certainly be clamped down and provisions made for humane treatment-but at least the few I went to seemed ok... I went to the stalls at the back and those horses seemed to be in much better shape than a lot of the horses I have boarded with....



  2. #22
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    Now, don’t jump on me for not being an animal rights activist. I do care how my animals live and are shown…. But I think that banning rodeo is taking it a skip and a hop too far. Yes, some animals get injured, but if that it the criteria for banning an “unethical” sport, then we are all guilty. There are inherent risks when doing anything with animals, be it transporting, training, or showing (or rodeo).And while I may not be thrilled by the calf roping, there is the alternative of “break away” roping- a concept which this “presentation” fails to address. Suggesting a ban on rodeo, not just one event in rodeo, seems to be a little extreme. There are few things wrong with other events, which is probably why the clip didn’t address them.
    If this clip is the best argument they have for banning a popular sport, then I am afraid that this PETA-spin off has a long uphill battle. There are clips on YouTube showing thrills n spills of eventing, dressage and jumping that are just as bad, if not worse.
    Just my two cents.....



  3. #23
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    I am mostly OK with bull and bronc riding as long as the animals are handled with consideration but I have no use for the roping events, wild horse race or steer tripping. Calf roping in a rodeo bears very little resemblance to real life at a ranch where a calf might have a rope dropped around his neck and get towed to the branding fire. Real cattle raisers would never jerk a baby cow around like they do at rodeos. Calves can be badly injured for the sake of entertainment. Steers are hurt frequently in the steer tripping and the brutal treatment of the horses in the wild horse race is nothing but abuse.

    I guess the older I get the less tolerant I get at seeing animals mistreated or injured in an extreme sport for someone's family outing.

    I'd not suggest a full ban but perhaps do breakaway roping instead of the way it's done now and make some changes to make it easier on the animals. Ban some events like Steer tripping and the Wild Horse race but most events would be fine with some more protection for the sake of the animals.



  4. #24
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    I don't think the bucking strap "irritates the genitals" as is commonly thought. It would damage them if it did, leading to urinary and breeding problems, which would make the animal worthless or ill. On horses the male genitals are between the hind legs, and the strap is in front of them. On bulls the penis is farther forward, midbelly, and the testicles are way back between the hind legs, and the strap goes in the large gap between them. I think it triggers the "gotcha" instinct - same as if you grab a child around the waist and he shrieks and wiggles to get loose. If the broncs are as intelligent as any other horse, they quickly learn that the strap is a cue to do their job. I've heard of plenty who can be ridden normally after work, but know to buck in the right context.

    Also, there are lots of ranches, feedlots and other cattle operations where roping, cutting and other cattle work are still done by cowboys on horseback, so rodeo isn't just an exhibit of long-lost tradition.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    Real cattle raisers would never jerk a baby cow around like they do at rodeos. Calves can be badly injured for the sake of entertainment. Steers are hurt frequently in the steer tripping and the brutal treatment of the horses in the wild horse race is nothing but abuse.

    I guess the older I get the less tolerant I get at seeing animals mistreated or injured in an extreme sport for someone's family outing.

    Well said.



  6. #26
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    My daughter rodeoed on a local circuit and we attend regional rodeos a few times during the year, she helped a PRCA rodeo last Friday night. National/Regional level stock are cared for pretty well. The lower the level the less the care but it is not all BAD care. One need only drive by low end boarding barn pastures to see horses lacking for groceries and routine care.

    The modern made up rodeo events- wild horse racing, etc. have no place in rodeo IMO. There are a couple other entertainment events that do make me giggle and no animal is injured.

    However, as horsemen/women we better ban together to support each other and our interest or we'll all loose to radical animal rights groups who are well funded and have agendas which do NOT include us riding our horses. The foxhunters took a hit in England and that has crept over here.

    I hate the national level gaited horses- Saddlebreds, Arabs, TWH's- with the huge weights, long hooves, tail sets and so on but I trust the association to monitor itself to keep the bad guys out, whether they are within the orgainization or on the outside. I think racing 2 year old TB's is silly. I think loping the tar out of a 3 year old Quarter horse to get him ready for a reining futurity is awful. Ditto some dressage methods. Still, I trust that the association has leadership with morals and the horses well being in mind to guide it- much like we are seeing in eventing in the past year. In spite of the things which I label "odd, stupid, pushing the limit" I'll stand beside all these other horse folks because we share a common interest, the horse.

    So, rodeo in itself is not bad IMO. Some newer entertainment events could be booted out and I'd be content.



  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by twofatponies View Post
    Also, there are lots of ranches, feedlots and other cattle operations where roping, cutting and other cattle work are still done by cowboys on horseback, so rodeo isn't just an exhibit of long-lost tradition.
    Agreed...but it's not a timed race...the cows are treated with consideration and not jerked around roughly as they are in rodeos. No one wants their cows run or injured either when they are trying to get them ready to sell.

    I know some ranchers and they treat their cattle very well indeed. I was told to feed a massive longhorn bull on one of my visits when I was helping with chores...his feed tub was in the pen with him and I could not make myself walk into his pen. My hostess laughed at me and said, "don't be afraid...he's a pet." She walked up and scratched him between the eyes. I felt a bit silly about then but he was enormous with some great huge horns!



  8. #28
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    Some rodeos are great and fine, but I do think stuff like calf roping or steer wrestling is hard on them. Hard on them in the aspect that they probably feel beaten up afterwards.
    Lets just say I dont really agree with it, but I respect it enough not to really voice my true opinion on it.

    I do think its stupid, most of it anyway. The wild horse race thing is just plain awful. Calf roping I have never liked, I mean come on it has got to hurt pretty bad to be running at top speed and have a rope around your neck stop you. I have always thought bull riding is a dumb thing to do, I just never saw the logic on getting on a animal who want to buck you off then after gore you.

    I dont really want it stopped, but its never been something I cared for. I try not to be too judgemental because I know I wouldent like it if people called my sport abusive.

    Here the thing, the animals are much less pets in rodeos then they are to hunter/jumper rider. Therefore right there they are going to be treated with less care.
    Here another thing- rodeos center around men dominating the animals, riding horses, well not so much. the men in rodeos are more likly to get all macho on the cows then we are too the horses.

    One more thing, people who do rodeos enjoy and either dont want it to be cruel or dont care if it is cruel. The ones who dont want it to be cruel are probably a little in denial so they base there experiance on all rodeos and say blah blah I have been to many a rodeo, the problem is just because you have been to lots of good rodeos doesent mean there arent bad ones out there. Another thing to consider is people who dont rodeo are probably going to think its more cruel then it is. Therefore you have two extremes. I beleive the truth is probably in between both of them. You can never know for sure how the animals are feeling, but I can bet most of the animals are probably terrifyed at rodeos and are probably somewhat beat up.

    That steer tripping is the most ffed up thing I have ever seen in my life WTF? It made me want to cry those poor cows. Im sure that go's on in mexico.
    Last edited by LiveToFly; Aug. 13, 2008 at 09:11 PM.



  9. #29
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    The only rodeo event I care to watch is bull riding, and most of the time I'm rooting for the bull. Those bulls are tough!!!

    Calf roping is disgusting. For every calf you see at an event, imagine all the little ones that were practised on. And the ropers use donkeys a lot too. That's really disgusting. Have you seen goat tying? Do you know how many times that goat was slammed down on his/her side? What about all the practice times? Wild horse racing is wrong, wrong, wrong and wild cow milking isn't too far behind. And for the folks that think most of these cowboys can really ride, um no, they can't. Reining and cutting are where the horsemen are, the others are just "cowboys".

    Gosh, I guess I've let the cat out of the bag and stated my feelings about most rodeo events.



  10. #30
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    Ok in the few rodeos I visited, I never came across the events of wild horse racing and wild cow milking. What exactly are they???



  11. #31
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    I have been to a number of rodeos, went to more as a kid growing up in agricultural part of coastal CA. There were all sorts of rodeos, from really small gatherings at a local ranch, to larger well known, long running rodeos.

    More recently I have seen back yard mexican rodeos popping up.

    I don't go to any, any more. Too much of the rough handling, bad riding etc just makes me cringe. I am not going to protest a rodeo, but I don't know that I will ever go to one again.

    Its one thing when I see a calf getting some rough handling as he comes in for branding etc.. its another to see calf after calf whipped to the ground by their neck for sport...

    So, while I am certainly not on a crusade to end rodeo.. I don't support it either



  12. #32
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    Whoa Gestalt- in goat tying the goat can be tied only three times in a class then it is rotated out. So, if you have 21 girls goat tying in one class, there will be 7 goats used. If it's a two day rodeo the goat will probably be tied Sat & Sun. Also, an appropriate size goat is used for the age group tying- IOW, the senior girls will not be tying a 30# goat, they'll have mature adult goats which push 80#. We never allowed our daughter to keep a live goat to practice on at home- she had a dummy goat.



  13. #33
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    LiveToFly said:
    Here the thing, the animals are much less pets in rodeos then they are to hunter/jumper rider. Therefore right there they are going to be treated with less care.

    Whoa! That is very presumptuous to say that because an animal isn't someone's pet that it will receive less care. People who grow up on farms have service animals, cattle, horses, chickens, etc., etc., etc., that are treated VERY well, receiving excellent care, yet they are not pets.

    LiveToFly's kind of thinking is very dangerous and falls into the trap of some animal activists, ie. if you don't treat your animals as pets, then it's abusive. I resent being told that my well cared for farm animals, who are not pets, are less cared for than someone else's dear pet! My animals are well fed, have adequate shelter from the elements, proper veterinary care and grooming when necessary. They have it made. Look at the same animal's wild counterpart and observe the difference.

    I am not in anyway defending any kind of abuse. I just don't like it when someone assumes that because an animal is not someone's pet that it is not treated as well as one that is.

    Calf roping for branding: necessary.
    Calf roping for sport: stupid abuse.
    Calf roping for spectacle:



  14. #34
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    I don't mind rodeos. My parents raise beef cattle and I understand that sometimes an animal needs to be handled rather roughly to get something done -- like treating an injury. That's part of life on a farm. However, I think that some of this stuff is unnecessary. What was once a competition between cowboys is now a big money sport that some people make a living at. When money's involved, people tend to lose sight of important things like the animal's welfare.

    I would be a hypocrite to say that rodeo's cruel because I'm sure we could find similar videos of other equestrian events on You Tube. I don't think that riding is cruel, nor do I think that working cattle or bull riding is cruel.

    Parts of that video are terrible; especially the clips of the calves. I've never had to wrestle a calf like I'm seeing in this video and doubt most ranches or farms would allow this. I guess you need to work quickly when you have tens of thousands of head of cattle, but IMO this is more about money than about preserving a part of history.



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW View Post
    I hate the national level gaited horses- Saddlebreds, Arabs, TWH's- with the huge weights, long hooves, tail sets and so on but I trust the association to monitor itself to keep the bad guys out, whether they are within the orgainization or on the outside.
    You must be joking, right? You are aware the feds are now involved with the TWH show venue because the vast majority of owners and trainers sore their horses? That at a recent large TWH show more than 400 out of 500 horses left the show grounds when their connects found out the horses would be inspected (by the Feds) for soring and other evidence of abuse?

    And please don't lump the Arab "gaited" classes with those of the TWH or even the ASB. An Arab shown in saddleseat classes can't wear shoes and pads weighing more then 12 oz combined. Some out of the box keg shoes weigh more than that. Neither can their feet be more than 4" long. Shoes are pulled and weighed on all champions and reserves. Foot length is measured. And I've yet to see an Arab who needs a tail set. They carry those tails very high naturally, one of the reasons they are, as a breed, frowned upon in open hunter classes.


    I think racing 2 year old TB's is silly. I think loping the tar out of a 3 year old Quarter horse to get him ready for a reining futurity is awful. Ditto some dressage methods. Still, I trust that the association has leadership with morals and the horses well being in mind to guide it- much like we are seeing in eventing in the past year. In spite of the things which I label "odd, stupid, pushing the limit" I'll stand beside all these other horse folks because we share a common interest, the horse.
    The common shared interest for most of these folks is winning. Let's not pretend otherwise. That you trust in "associations" do do what's right for the horses' welfare is beyond naive. Those associations only make an effort at "caring" after receiving bad publicity. Think not? Why is everyone so up in arms about Eight Belles? Race horses are euthanized everyday right on the track for the same reason and have been for years. Until the carnage was seen by millions on national TV, few in the biz gave a damn.

    Running 2 year olds is "silly"? How about tragic? And did you read the recent thread in the eventing forum about how top horses receiving "top" care are not allowed to rest and are walked by grooms all night long wearing ice boots so they don't appear stiff or sore at the required jog out the day after the cross country? Yep, that's really caring about the horses' welfare alright.



  16. #36
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    Naive it is. Yes, I've followed the TWH issues. If the association isn't enforcing rules and keeping it safe for the horse then bring in the Feds and shut the show down.

    Last year the Arabian show world changed it's rules to allow a longer hoof/shoe length- not progress in my book and many bowed tendons later..... And yes, I'm aware Arabs dont wear tail sets, was trying to keep the post short. However, I also know techniques not allowed on showgrounds are used in training sessions in each dicipline. Watch it trainers! I was 13 years old and at a national level private hunter barn getting the nickel tour. A former student of my instructor was working there. Anyway, there were poles on the jumps in the indoor covered with tiny tack nails and I was like "wow, why that?". We all know why. The owners horses won and their top rider, at the time had just won the medal classes at the Garden, et al, is now an international rider w/ a long respected career. That person is a GOOD person, just sharing how that barn poled the hunters to get that perfect jump every time.

    Associations do make bad practices a reason for being DQ from a show or loosing one's membership- take a peek at the monthly "suspended" list in any group. They aren't perfect but they are a watchdog. This includes limiting the type and amount of drugs which are legal, not allowing specific veterinary proceedures which produce cosmetic results and AQHA finally took a stand against HYPP positive horses, to name a few.

    So, while I don't agree with the goal of every breed association, I'll stand beside them over PETA/SHARK any day.



  17. #37
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    ---"So, while I don't agree with the goal of every breed association, I'll stand beside them over PETA/SHARK any day."---

    The difference is that breed associations have to abide by their by-laws and other laws, so they can only do so much.
    The HyPP issue would have costed the AQHA several lawsuits and they don't have the money to fight any more of those, the few they fought took a big toll on the AQHA, so they can't fight HyPP, embrio transfer, cloning and such with other than the regulations in place, where members vote on the issues.

    Those processes take many years, so that is why breed associations can't just do what they want.

    PETA and those that support and encourage them, like the HSUS, can go around burning down places and letting animals out and doing any vandalism they want any time they want.
    Their hands are not tied.
    It was just by luck that they were caught dumping the animals they kill regularly that once.



  18. #38
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    I think an important part of the question isn't being asked in these threads, and only a few people are savvy enough to volunteer the answer: Do you believe that because you don't approve of something it should be outlawed? And if you do, why does your opinion trump that of others?

    We have tons of these type discussions, whether it's big lick or foxhunting or rodeo and, with the injuries and deaths in eventing, now eventing. And lots of people who don't participate, lots of people who have seen a TV show or some news byte, or some who just have a visceral reaction, chime in.

    I am by no means trying to stifle discussion (if a thread is going in the same ole same ole, or if it's getting personal and unpleasant, I just don't revisit it) nor am I trying to deny anyone the right to their opinion.

    For instance, I don't understand the "sport" and the "challenge" of sitting up in a tree, tossing some apples and carrots at the tree's base, and pulling out an automatic handgun to shoot a deer some 10-15 feet away. I don't get it at all. That said, just because I don't get it, don't understand the need for an auto in deer hunting, I certainly don't think it should be outlawed. Not merely because I don't approve.

    I dunno, I can only echo what so many people say in these posts: if we start outlawing rodeo (to keep it on-topic) then how do we justify barrel racing? Eventing? Dressage? Even something as seemingly-benign as recreational trail riding? Horses may experience discomfort in any of these endeavors. Is discomfort the same as inhumane treatment? As cruelty?

    Does the perceived discomfort (we can't determe the degree of discomfort) of a goat in goat-tying or of a calf in calf-roping equal inhumane treatment? Does it equal cruelty?

    Because if you think it does, there are some non-horsey folk who are going to tell you that the discomfort of a bit is inhumane or cruel; that the discomfort bearing the weight of a rider is inhumane or cruel; by riding a horse, taking it out of its pasture and thwarting its desire--its right--to graze is inhumane and cruel.

    eta that you all know I'm being disingenous in that last paragraph, trying to set up an us-against-them scenario, when in reality we all know that even horsey people are going to tell you that the bit you use is inhumane, that the training method you use or discipline you show in is cruel.
    Last edited by CarrieK; Aug. 14, 2008 at 09:09 AM.
    Proud Member of the Courageous Weenie Eventers Clique



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkhawk View Post
    Ok in the few rodeos I visited, I never came across the events of wild horse racing and wild cow milking. What exactly are they???
    Yes, please someone explain!



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by lcw579 View Post
    Yes, please someone explain!
    In all these years living in the middle of the West, I have seen live ONE rodeo, in WY, they are just not my thing.

    In that one rodeo, they had wild horse races, where they had some ranch raised colts, not feral horses, in the bucking chutes, a team of two or three men put a rope around their necks and the gates were open, the men tried to stay with the wild colts, get a saddle and hackamore on them, someone on their backs and haze them down the racetrack, where they had to go so far and cross a line still on the colt.

    There may have been ten teams and about half made it to cross the line, after all kinds of misshaps getting the saddle and rider on and the riders being hazed down to the line.
    Not the best start for those colts, but very funny to watch the cowboys getting trampled.

    Wild cow milking, I have only seen on TV, but they turn a few range cows, that have never been handled or milked, in an arena and a team has to rope one, mug her so she stands and one cowboy tried to get some milk out of her into a coke bottle.
    Those cows are on the prowl and are not about to give any milk, so it is some kind of a feat to get those few drops.

    The cows are definitely not hurt, just grossly irritated, but many cowboys are.
    Two years ago, our neighbor's ranch rodeo team ended with one man with a broken leg and one with a broken shoulder, their cow was so wild and, as they told me, "ate their lunch."

    I have seen some parts of those ranch rodeos on TV, not in person, but, again I expect it is the entertainment factor and watching wrecks happen, that people like so well, over the inconvenience the cow or colt may suffer.



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