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  1. #21
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    May. 3, 2006
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    Sounds to me like they've done you a huge favour as you clearly struggling to make a decision and were so highly critical of everything they were doing and were convinced that "they don't know jack but think they know everything!"

    There are some things in your posting that serve me as personal reminders of why I never do livery.
    horse is fat, happy, etc
    fat = unhealthy and serves for others to see that you know sweet FA about horse management. That kills a horseman's reputation!

    Then barn owner takes job out of state
    So clearly was being a busy fool and not committed or else just not making sufficient income out of his customers to make a living!

    Their response is that if I want him in a stall I am going to have to pay extra (on top of my premium price for FULL CARE board that I already pay)
    Of course I don't know what you pay or what the terms of the lease are but I do know that keeping a horse stabled requires a lot more labour which needs to be cost factored back into the price.

    and that if I want him to be eating hay in the summer I was going to have to pay extra for that as well because our grass is so plush that they have adquate grazing
    Totally logical! Hay costs more than grass.

    (his field is nice and green but it is only weeds and food of no nutritional value)
    How comes???? Even a pretty stressed paddock with docks is going to be higher nutritional value than most hay bought for horses. If a horse is turned out on grass then it doesn't need hay as well.

    Upon talking with the other boarders everyone is livid, and no one was aware their horses were not getting hay
    Are owners really so ignorant and unconcerned about how their horses are kept?
    The only horses on my premises getting hay now are ponies who aren't on grass at all and a couple of fatties that came in for training. Oh and they're getting hay from last year! I'm dieting them so they can actually be fit before I can do anything with them.

    (oh and they were not feeding the hay because they are saving it for the winter, which by the time they start to feed it, the hay will have been sitting in a loft for over a year and a half- so this is not exactly healthy hay to be feeding)
    Here its considered to be best practice to feed equines year old hay and if you read postings on laminitis and founder you'll see that's most often the recommendation. You really need to learn about feed and grazing and forage because I'm thinking you might think you know what you're talking about, but you don't!

    So I sent them a very "to the point" e-mail explaining why this was not acceptable
    So you complained and told them how to manage horses and they told you to go elsewhere!

    Any thoughts anyone?
    Yes and all expressed above!

    Ever dealt with a situation like this?
    I've given notice to a few over the decades. I never like to charge folks for professional expertise when they (think) they know more than me.



  2. #22
    Join Date
    May. 9, 2007
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    538

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    What Thomas said....
    Why feed horses hay when the pasture is excellent? If the weather's been anything like here (rain every other day) the horses can't keep up with the grass.
    Also, again due to weather (can't get dry hay off the field) last year's hay is far better than this year's.
    I have a mare who reacts to bites...a fly sheet works wonders.
    Your previous BO perhaps wasn't making a living, or she wouldn't have had to go away to work.
    Makes me glad again that I don't have boarders.....



  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2006
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    1,505

    Default barns

    However unsuitable that facility became for your horse, it is their barn, their rules. Too bad you got the bait and switch with respect to the management.

    My feeling is that unless there is a miscommunication/misunderstanding, the best you can do as a boarder is to make sure the managers understand your specific concerns and hope they will work with you. If they put their bottom line before your horse, going elsewhere is the best option anyway. If I were to fault your actions, it would only be that your expectations were too high. The new managers may be having a rude awakening to the economics of barn management, they don't understand horse care needs, and at the end of the day they have to pay the bills. So they were not in a position to judge your horse's condition, and/or your horse's health was not important to them. And if you don't trust their judgement, there's no point in hanging around.

    I've left barns out of concern for my horse's care, and can tell you that it is TOUGH to find a barn that is offers the kind of care/feed program that picky boarders want, because it is simply not profitable or even a break-even situation. I wish you the best of luck, and hope you find a nice place.
    http://behindthebitblog.com
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  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan. 30, 2007
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    3,154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_1 View Post
    Of course I don't know what you pay or what the terms of the lease are but I do know that keeping a horse stabled requires a lot more labour which needs to be cost factored back into the price.

    However, when one is paying FULL board, there is a reasonable expectation that complete services will be provided. In most areas, that includes everything except for vaccinations, farrier care etc.

    How comes???? Even a pretty stressed paddock with docks is going to be higher nutritional value than most hay bought for horses. If a horse is turned out on grass then it doesn't need hay as well.

    Again, debatable. In the past I boarded at a facility with "pasture" - it looked green from a distance, but it was actually marsh grass and weeds. The horses had eaten down to the roots of anything worth grazing and started on the trees. I was feeding my at-rest horses the same amount as a friend's horse in full work; when I would try to back down their feed, they became noticeably ribby and poor looking


    Are owners really so ignorant and unconcerned about how their horses are kept?
    The only horses on my premises getting hay now are ponies who aren't on grass at all and a couple of fatties that came in for training. Oh and they're getting hay from last year! I'm dieting them so they can actually be fit before I can do anything with them.
    Thomas, again this might be a regional difference - a horse on pasture in, say, Kentucky will likely see different pasture quality from Arizona in regard to composition and quantity.

    Here its considered to be best practice to feed equines year old hay and if you read postings on laminitis and founder you'll see that's most often the recommendation. You really need to learn about feed and grazing and forage because I'm thinking you might think you know what you're talking about, but you don't!
    Without testing the NSC values this can be a risky assumption - although I believe there may be a reduction in the sugars (fructans?) of older hay, it does not render it "safe" for IR / sensitive horses. Even older, yellowed hay can prove a risk.
    Bottom line.....though many might feel "my barn, my rules' - IF someone is paying you in good faith to provide a service, do they have no say at all in the quality of service you provide when you have contracted them to provide it?
    Dee
    Founder of the I LOFF my worrywart TB clique!
    Official member of the "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique
    http://wilddiamondintherough.blogspot.ca/



  5. #25
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Deep South
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate66 View Post
    I had a certain amount of sympathy until you wrote your last line "At this point I consider myself lucky that my FEI dressage horse did not colic, or worse!". I always find it quite amusing that someone feels the need to put their horse's qualifications into a thread about horse care, like there should be some immensely different level of care provided to horses depending on their capabilities.
    I think the OP was saying that her horse is valuable and could be a very considerable loss, given his lengthy training.



  6. #26
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    Feb. 27, 2008
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    74

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    So- In response to those of you who have been understanding and offered advice, Thank you. To clarify a few points:

    Quote Originally Posted by flypony74 View Post
    Hand them a copy of "Horses for Dummies" on your way out, as you smile sweetly....
    HAHA Thats a wonderful idea...they could stand to learn a thing or two!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaegermonster View Post
    Why did you have to wait for them to kick you out if your horse was losing weight and you were not getting the services you were paying for? I think I would have already at least been looking, and probably been gone awhile ago.
    * I have been looking around, trying to get a feel of the other barns in the area for a while now. While I knew my horse was losing weight it was "expressed" to me that he was recieving the amount of hay request
    ed, so I had no reason to assume that he was losing weight d/t that. I chalked it up to him being in full work in the heat (he just shipped south from way way way up north) and a few other things not actual neglect. *

    Quote Originally Posted by mew View Post
    I would be glad to be out of that place. I would send a note to all the fellow boarders and let them know what is happening. I would also let the lady who owns the place know what's going on, I suspect she would not be happy to find this out.
    The other boarders are aware and are also in the process of making other aggraingements for their horses!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kate66 View Post
    3-4 flakes x2 per day is a pretty decent amount of hay. Even in the winter, our guys only get 2 flakes x 2 per day plus their grain.

    What does your actual contract say with respect to the quantity of hay, grain and turnout. I can imagine if it says unlimited that you might have reason to be irritated, but I suspect that it states certain quantities and then you would have a right to request that quantity.

    I had a certain amount of sympathy until you wrote your last line "At this point I consider myself lucky that my FEI dressage horse did not colic, or worse!". I always find it quite amusing that someone feels the need to put their horse's qualifications into a thread about horse care, like there should be some immensely different level of care provided to horses depending on their capabilities.
    The hay here is very loose baled grass hay. 3-4 flakes of this is NOTHING like a nice tightly baled timothy, or timothy/alfalfa mix. 2 flakes of this type of hay is def more in lbs than 3-4 flakes of what the farm feeds.

    The contract states "A suffecent amount of hay and grain will be fed year round to maintain an optimal wt for each horse. This amount will be agreed upon by barn mgmt and horse owner and is subject to change depending on the horses needs at any given time"

    By mentioning that he was my FEI horse I did not mean to imply that there should be different levels of care for different levels of horses. Just simply stating that was the level of care I was paying for, and that is the level of work he is in during 100+ heat summers we are experiencing here, so people had an understanding that he is going to require more food than my qh with a stand still metabolism that does beginner lessons 2x a week for 30 min at a time. Thats all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_1 View Post
    Sounds to me like they've done you a huge favour as you clearly struggling to make a decision and were so highly critical of everything they were doing and were convinced that "they don't know jack but think they know everything!"

    There are some things in your posting that serve me as personal reminders of why I never do livery.
    fat = unhealthy and serves for others to see that you know sweet FA about horse management. That kills a horseman's reputation!

    So clearly was being a busy fool and not committed or else just not making sufficient income out of his customers to make a living!

    Of course I don't know what you pay or what the terms of the lease are but I do know that keeping a horse stabled requires a lot more labour which needs to be cost factored back into the price.

    Totally logical! Hay costs more than grass.

    How comes???? Even a pretty stressed paddock with docks is going to be higher nutritional value than most hay bought for horses. If a horse is turned out on grass then it doesn't need hay as well.


    Are owners really so ignorant and unconcerned about how their horses are kept?
    The only horses on my premises getting hay now are ponies who aren't on grass at all and a couple of fatties that came in for training. Oh and they're getting hay from last year! I'm dieting them so they can actually be fit before I can do anything with them.

    Here its considered to be best practice to feed equines year old hay and if you read postings on laminitis and founder you'll see that's most often the recommendation. You really need to learn about feed and grazing and forage because I'm thinking you might think you know what you're talking about, but you don't!

    So you complained and told them how to manage horses and they told you to go elsewhere!

    Yes and all expressed above!

    I've given notice to a few over the decades. I never like to charge folks for professional expertise when they (think) they know more than me.
    By saying fat, happy, etc was simply just an expression (ever heard fat and happy?) I don't think that you are in any place to make judgements about what I know about horse care based on this one statement. If you would like my full list of credentions in both horse management and competitions by all means let me know. I'm sure it would prove that know more than "sweet FA"

    I don't feel that it is your place to pass judgements on the barn owner without her full history. No I'm sure she was not making a living off the horses alone and she had to do other things to make ends meet. Have you ever heard to doing it because you love the horses and the sport? I owned my own barn for years and took in boards- did I make a living off of it, NO but I enjoyed the company on the farm and loved having the horses there. Not everyone is in this business to get rich. Some actually love it and are passionate about the sport. Clearly you are not one of those people.

    Of course it cost more for a horse to be in a stall. Thats why I pay more for full care board (which includes being placed in a stall at my request- for up to in during the day, out at night or v/v unless said horse is injured and must be placed on stall rest) if I had my horse on pasture board then I could see them stating that it was going to cost extra, but why should I pay extra for what I already pay for each month?

    Yes hay does cost more than grass, but when the grass in the fields is of very poor quality (we are in a big drought in this part of the country btw) and the fields have all been over grazed then the grass is not going to carry these horses on it's own. I have quite frequently had to supplement hay with grass. If the horse is going to eat the hay instead of the grass (or in addition to) then there is obviously not adequate grass, because if there was the horse would not eat the hay as well. (since we are talking a grass hay here, not a nice yummy treat of alfalfa)

    If your year old hay is anything like year old hay here then I feel sorry for your horses. Hay loses its nutritional value over time, and here it gets very dry and dusty and has been known to cause resp. problems when fed.

    Well- here it is not considered good "practice" to feed horses hay that cause them to colic or have resp conditions. Any way you slice it- it's not good. And once again- if you want to challenge my knowledge and creds. let me know. I was not aware that before I posted this I should also include my resume.

    I did not tell them how to manage their horses. I told them that this was not in agreement with my boarding contract, that I was not getting the full services that I was paying for and that it was unsafe for my horse. All truths.


    Quote Originally Posted by partlycloudy View Post
    What Thomas said....
    Why feed horses hay when the pasture is excellent? If the weather's been anything like here (rain every other day) the horses can't keep up with the grass.
    Also, again due to weather (can't get dry hay off the field) last year's hay is far better than this year's.
    I have a mare who reacts to bites...a fly sheet works wonders.
    Your previous BO perhaps wasn't making a living, or she wouldn't have had to go away to work.
    Makes me glad again that I don't have boarders.....
    If the pastures were in fact excellent then this might not be an issue. We are def at opposite ends of the earth from each other, I would LOVE To have your problem. We are in the middle of a huge drought here and have gotten no rain in forever. I would love to use a fly sheet but it gets so hot here during the day that the horses come in covered in sweat as it is, adding a fly sheet on them makes them so much hotter, when a simple soloution of putting them in a stall with a fly system and a fan is much better for them.

    As far as my being "picky" I am so far from that. I have owned a barn and had boarders before so I know what a pain it is to have a picky owner. I understand that it is very hard to make a profit feeding high quality grain, which is why I never complained about the quality of hay/grain they were feeding (except when the hay became a health concern) even though, yes in an IDEAL world I would like to feed my horses something of a higher quality. I understand the practical aspects of this. All I wanted was my horse to recieve hay and grain twice a day as I requested and as is written in the contract that I am entitiled to, and to not have anyone else making changes to his routine without discussing it with me first. I didn't think that was too much to ask. Guess feeding my horse is too much to ask for.

    Regardless- my horse is leaving this afternoon when I get off work. Problem solved.



  7. #27
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    Nov. 9, 2005
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    uk
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeThbd View Post
    Bottom line.....though many might feel "my barn, my rules' - IF someone is paying you in good faith to provide a service, do they have no say at all in the quality of service you provide when you have contracted them to provide it?
    Dee
    depends--how much one pays and for what barn rules apply - a grass kept horse or diy or part livery working livery and full liviery all are different in costs and management

    and in each case barn effects and contracts are set up differently as to what service you want or which is complied to or applied to



  8. #28
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    Feb. 27, 2008
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    74

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    In this instance...my horse was in full care board. Which was supposed to include a stall (for up to in during the day out at night or V/V depending on the time of year) hay and grain year round, and they are to feed my horse 2x a day, clean his stall etc. Believe me- this was all broke down in the contract and I was paying a premium price for this service that was suposed to be added piece of mind for me when I couldn't be at the barn.



  9. #29
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    May. 12, 2000
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    NE TN, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by flypony74 View Post
    Hand them a copy of "Horses for Dummies" on your way out, as you smile sweetly....
    ...and say "Bless your heart!"

    Perhaps after the place winds up in the inevitable financial trainwreck, and is hopefully under control of new, more knowledgeable management, you can return. In the meantime, good luck to you and your horse in new digs.
    “There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
    John Adams



  10. #30
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    Jul. 22, 2007
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    South of Georgia, North of Miami
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    I agree, you should be livid and it is definitely time to move on.

    That said, I would have already been looking when I'd realized the new barn owners didn't know squat and my horse was getting skinny. I have always been very sensitive to what happens at the barn when I wasn't around. I am the only voice my horse has and it is my responsibility to look out for her. She would have been long gone before the next incident.

    I wouldn't be surprised if your followed out by the rest of the boarders.



  11. #31
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    Apr. 3, 2003
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    Up the creek from bar.ka
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    Quote Originally Posted by drsg4me View Post

    I was not aware that before I posted this I should also include my resume.
    Oh absolutely you should, and you ought to post your show record for the past 3 year and include an 8x10 glossy headshot.

    Just remember, 95% of the peeps on this board DO ACTUALLY KNOW EVERYTHING.



  12. #32
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    Jan. 12, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacificsolo View Post
    So, you would be perfectly fine if you were paying for hay, yet your horse was not receiving ANY and losing weight as a result?
    No no no... Where the care must be OK for some of the horses there is is NOT good enough for her horse. I would be PISSED if it were my horse. And would have moved my horse A.S.A.P. = Not every place is for everybody. Trying to make it work and reasoning has not worked - I would wipe the dust of that place off my horses hooves and be done with it!

    Edited to add: I run a boarding & training stables. It would never occur too me to charge extra for the simple services she has paid to receive. I take great pride in the health and comfort of the horses in my care. I also really love my boarders And I accommodate to their individual needs and desires whenever I can. However I do think the "My barn My rules" is always applicable to keep order.
    "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"



  13. #33
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    I don't know where you are, but hay is very expensive in some areas, plus in short supply. Could you supplement with an alternative like rice bra or beet pulp? Could you use a fly sheet to prevent welts? A hot summer can be terribly hard on the horses and do a number on their weight very quickly. Some horses deal better than others. And people have different ideas of a horse in good weight. One persons "fit" is another person's obese.

    It works both ways. They gave you 30 days to leave as they felt they could not accomodate you. If you aren't willing to consider at least alternatives that might work for both of you, what are they to do?

    I find it telling- I ride at a nice farm that caters to pleasure riders. The care is good, my horse stays in good weight, but much of what goes on would be very unacceptable to people used to show barns. They pre-screen boarders and weed out people with higher maintenance horses. It's a preference. In return they get laid back boarders and probably an easier barn to run. To maintain an FEI dressage horse in peak condition is probably much more effort than to keep a pleasure horse healthy and happy. They did not feel they could make you happy and asked you to leave. Far easier than having a 6 month bitch fest that ends up with you hauling your horse out in the middle of the night.



  14. #34
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    Mar. 4, 2008
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    Birmingham, AL
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    I think that everyone would assume that full care stall board includes hay when the horse is in the stall especially if the contract states it. Why pay for a stall if you can't actually use it because your horse won't be fed? And who wants to set their horse up for stall vices and/or ulcers because it isn't getting enough forage?

    People have to feed hay in the summer for one reason or another. I do not feed a super rich hay because my horses don't like it. It is a good hay though. A bale is 55-60 lbs. My horses will definitely eat half a bale a day and my broodmares eat about an entire bale in addition to their grain. Depending on how long the horse would be in the stall I don't think 3 flakes 2x/day is excessive. Again, hay is included. And if the grazing is poor, which I can understand because we had a horrible drought last year and had to feed a lot of hay because all that was growing was weeds then it is perfectly understandable that the OP would expect the horse to be getting some adequate forage via hay.

    Yes, I have heard the term "fat and happy" which doesn't literally mean the horse is a porker. I took it to mean the horse was in good weight and doing well mentally.

    Perhaps if you find the new barn to be good you can share that info with the other dissatisfied boarders at the current barn and help them find a suitable place. Several boarders leaving at the same time due to discontent should send a message to the BM that there is a problem.

    Good luck at the new place.
    Altamont Sport Horses
    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
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  15. #35
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    Jan. 11, 2007
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    lexington KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_1 View Post
    Sounds to me like they've done you a huge favour as you clearly struggling to make a decision and were so highly critical of everything they were doing and were convinced that "they don't know jack but think they know everything!"

    There are some things in your posting that serve me as personal reminders of why I never do livery.
    fat = unhealthy and serves for others to see that you know sweet FA about horse management. That kills a horseman's reputation!

    So clearly was being a busy fool and not committed or else just not making sufficient income out of his customers to make a living!

    Of course I don't know what you pay or what the terms of the lease are but I do know that keeping a horse stabled requires a lot more labour which needs to be cost factored back into the price.

    Totally logical! Hay costs more than grass.

    How comes???? Even a pretty stressed paddock with docks is going to be higher nutritional value than most hay bought for horses. If a horse is turned out on grass then it doesn't need hay as well.


    Are owners really so ignorant and unconcerned about how their horses are kept?
    The only horses on my premises getting hay now are ponies who aren't on grass at all and a couple of fatties that came in for training. Oh and they're getting hay from last year! I'm dieting them so they can actually be fit before I can do anything with them.

    Here its considered to be best practice to feed equines year old hay and if you read postings on laminitis and founder you'll see that's most often the recommendation. You really need to learn about feed and grazing and forage because I'm thinking you might think you know what you're talking about, but you don't!

    So you complained and told them how to manage horses and they told you to go elsewhere!

    Yes and all expressed above!

    I've given notice to a few over the decades. I never like to charge folks for professional expertise when they (think) they know more than me.
    I agree with some of what Thomas said. But the part about not feeding hay to horses on grass bit, that I cannot agree with. My guys are on hay all year around b/c my pasture is not sufficient enough to have them just on that. she said the pasture was not good (weeds etc), and (although I do not know for myself as I am not there) then I would expect hay to be given. I know my guys would not eat bad pasture (weeds/etc) They dont now. So if the pasture is not good, then yes, hay should be given.

    but again, I do not know the entire situation here, so i could be wrong.

    (ps . i love the name Thomas_1 its my boys name)



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by drsg4me View Post
    ...and leases the barn out to another family who have not been in horses for very long and are a classic example of "don't know jack but think they know everything!"
    There's your answer.

    You have little choice but to move. These people will have to learn the basics the hard way; as usual, it's too bad that horses will suffer in the meanwhile.
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

    Spay and neuter. Please.



  17. #37
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    Holy crap people. If the OP was paying for a premium FEI level facility then they should expect to provide that level of service. Hay should be available (especially when the pasture is just weeds... I'd be scared of what's growing out there!), and midday turn-in on request would also be expected, as would any blanketing, fly masks, boots required etc.

    The level of care shouldn't drop just because it's summer.
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



  18. #38
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    monstrpony has nailed it. That is precisely why I got out of my last barn. I saw that train wreck coming and got out the day before the new owners took over.
    'Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.'
    - Pablo Picasso



  19. #39
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    when i boarded, my horses were always pasture boarded at small places, but i did work at a few higher level care barns

    if i was the op, i'd be glad to get out, it's one thing to be a pia and your horse is fat and happy but if your horse lost weight and you're paying for full care board and the barn is not providing the service you're paying for, time to go



  20. #40
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    Why the dramatic post, OP?

    You were paying for a service, the providing of that service changed to someone else, and the care your horse was receiving dropped to levels you found unacceptable.

    In a case like that, you quietly find another barn and move your horse.

    There's really no need to go on a frothing rampage about how ignorant and clueless the current providers are. It could very well come back to bite you in the tuckus, since the horse world really is very small.

    If I were a care provider, I'd be very skeptical about letting you in my barn. You might be a stellar boarder, but from your posts you sound like DQ PITA for whom nothing will ever be good enough.

    That might not be the case, but that's certainly how you're coming across here. JMHO.
    Last edited by arabhorse2; Aug. 7, 2008 at 10:06 AM.
    The plural of anecdote is not data.



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    By Samotis in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Mar. 27, 2008, 04:40 PM

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