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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar. 14, 2008
    Posts
    129

    Default Permission denied...

    My husband just had a conversation with a neighbor we lease some land from next to our place, he wants our 4-H kids not to ride on this property. He is afraid of the liability, although we tried to ease that by leasing it from him for pasture.

    How can I convince him that he would be covered under normal home owner's insurance, plus ours for owning the horses, plus 4-H's for all the riders being either volunteers or members? In the pit of my stomach, I know I can't do it, but it limits us to riding on our 6 acres and having no options other than to trailer out. The neighbor up the road has a loose dog that attacks us if we go up there to access trails that are open to us. Makes me so very sad.

    I need ideas, this little ten acres is a lovely place to do hill work, to cool out in a serene setting, and to escape the ring. Everything we have is in pasture and quite small. Knew it when we came here, but it's all we have and the old property owner was old school and the entire neighborhood is great about being honorable to each other (except the durn dog people...young relatives renting an old farm house...we are 1/2 mile off the main road).

    Anything I can use in a conversation or letter signed by all of us (seven, not all up to riding out...another great use for that pasture, giving little kids a safe intro to trail riding) would be appreciated.



  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BaaramuLuke View Post
    My husband just had a conversation with a neighbor we lease some land from next to our place, he wants our 4-H kids not to ride on this property. He is afraid of the liability, although we tried to ease that by leasing it from him for pasture.


    Anything I can use in a conversation or letter signed by all of us (seven, not all up to riding out...another great use for that pasture, giving little kids a safe intro to trail riding) would be appreciated.

    I'd like to tell you something positive...but as a large landower who has a $1400/mo insurance premium with a seperate umbrella with a specific horse injury clause and we don't even allow anyone to ride here except immediate family and occasionally invited guests... I would have to say that he'd be nuts to risk his property in such a way...

    sorry.....
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun. 29, 2005
    Posts
    465

    Default

    T in T is right. I used to be in the insurance business, and I wouldn't let kids and/or strangers ride on my property, either.
    Training and campaigning Barb endurance horses at The Barb Wire.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 28, 2003
    Location
    US
    Posts
    1,966

    Default

    That's too bad. You have to respect his wishes, but it's just sad that this is the type of society we live in now.

    On a positive note, at least you can get a squirt gun full of ammonia (or mace) for the dogs and ride the other direction.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 14, 2008
    Posts
    129

    Default

    I kind of knew this to be true. It's fair because he bought this property and it's his to decide and his to lose if someone sues him.
    Except for the horses, which is a big "except", what is his liability for the guy who rents his house, the business that rents his barn, and the hunt club who leases his land during hunting season? I guess it makes me so sad that we would be willing to sign anything he wants as far as a release (yeah, I know about releases and their value, just the same, I have one), we don't ride at all on trails during hunting season, we all wear protective headgear, and we take every caution we can to be as safe as possible but it all makes no difference.
    He has every right to his directive, and I honor that, but I feel so sorry that this day has come for my kids when I was so lucky to enjoy a different day when I was coming up on horses. It's a wonder the government allows for public trails anywhere, but I'm grateful we have places where we can drive an hour and go ride. Whoopee.
    I'll get over it. Gosh, i'm sad.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar. 14, 2008
    Posts
    129

    Default

    The dog...yeah, that was my husband's thought, but heck, the last thing I need is animal control going after me for cruelty to unleashed dogs. I also don't want to have my neck broke when my beloved horse has freak out when the 80# black and tan "Shotgun" chases her, causing my insurance provider to not pay for my injuries due to searching for the irresponsible dog owner who allowed his dog to cause me bodily harm on the dumb gravel right of way. My luck, I'd end up causing him harm and getting to pay for his vet bills when he got kicked in the face by said horse. After I got dumped and lay motionless in the guy's yard, only to have to be charged with trespassing for dying in his rented yard.
    Then my spouse would cause a neighborhood ruckus and my orphaned horses would be seized to pay his bond so he could attend my funeral. Which we couldn't pay for this year for having horses in a bad hay year when gas went up 25% in that same time. Which is why we can't just load up and go ride someplace we're welcome. Easily.

    Geez.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 28, 2003
    Location
    US
    Posts
    1,966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BaaramuLuke View Post
    The dog...yeah, that was my husband's thought, but heck, the last thing I need is animal control going after me for cruelty to unleashed dogs. I also don't want to have my neck broke when my beloved horse has freak out when the 80# black and tan "Shotgun" chases her, causing my insurance provider to not pay for my injuries due to searching for the irresponsible dog owner who allowed his dog to cause me bodily harm on the dumb gravel right of way. My luck, I'd end up causing him harm and getting to pay for his vet bills when he got kicked in the face by said horse. After I got dumped and lay motionless in the guy's yard, only to have to be charged with trespassing for dying in his rented yard.
    Then my spouse would cause a neighborhood ruckus and my orphaned horses would be seized to pay his bond so he could attend my funeral. Which we couldn't pay for this year for having horses in a bad hay year when gas went up 25% in that same time. Which is why we can't just load up and go ride someplace we're welcome. Easily.

    Geez.
    Heh, heh. Believe me, I understand the sentiment. Sometimes it seems like the whole freakin' world is against you.

    Go out to the barn, pat your horses on the nose, and thank god that you have them.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 21, 2006
    Posts
    220

    Default Two words for the dog:

    Pepper spray.
    ***
    Spotakiss, now a two year old colt, born 3-22-07 video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhf7Bkb_4Gs



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2008
    Location
    South Georgia
    Posts
    716

    Default

    Call Animal Control on the loose dog.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 14, 2008
    Posts
    129

    Default

    I need to do something.

    The problem here is that the whole neighborhood is the kind of place where all the land is owned by kin of the people who have had it for the last 150 years easily. We have this tiny slip of land one of them let go of, and I sought owning it after working from my teens to my thirties for a woman who had a big place a half mile from here. She passed on, another woman I know bought it, and we have permission to ride all over from all these people who know me from 1976 to today. We were really lucky to get it, arranged to buy it from the elder folks who had it and they left it to move back into town.
    The piece next door was owned my an older gentleman who loved to see the kids ride, it made his day. When he passed on, another neighbor bought it as an investment, and when our county recently approved a comprehensive plan that did not allow for developing this neighborhood in the next ten years (thank God), he was upset. We did get involved in the show of support to keep it agricultural. I wondered if that was going to change things. We were suprised to find out later that he was not on this side, because he had asked for our support over another neighbor for purchasing it from the old man's relatives because he said he wanted to preserve the nature of the neighborhood.
    Maybe that's why I'm fuming more than anything. He wanted us to lease the whole thing and put it in grass and fences for pastures for our sheep and horses, when he didn't give us a guarantee of a five year lease for that, we opted to lease just this ten acres of maybe two acres open (we mow and maintain it open) and woods that have no trails. Just riding the perimeter was enough. Out beyond the dog is miles of trails but also a road or two to travel and cross, another hesitation for me with kids. A big one.
    I appreciate the understanding, and it's a free-enterprising world that I wouldn't want to see any other way, but I hate the loss of the the day when folks didn't sue each other over everything.

    I'll start dog training tonight. Wish me well. Might start off with a request to allow me to pass safely, maybe stir up their liability senses. Water pistol with just water for now. BAM right between the eyes.



  11. #11

    Default a little tale

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by BaaramuLuke View Post
    I need to do something.

    The problem here is that the whole neighborhood is the kind of place where all the land is owned by kin of the people who have had it for the last 150 years easily.

    hey you must live near us Calvin's people been here since 1870 and my daddy's since 1890...and they came over the mountains from the Carolinas at that time...


    I appreciate the understanding, and it's a free-enterprising world that I wouldn't want to see any other way, but I hate the loss of the the day when folks didn't sue each other over everything.
    I am happily (and mostly blissfully )unaware of lots of the modern world,however when our barn caught fire in the winter we got a big shock in procedures..

    see the barn burned and we stopped it...and the fire chief made a report and the local arson guy came out and the state guy with his sniffer dog and the insurance adjuster and so on....and everyone agreed independantly on the cause...tiny overheated little motor...melted hydraulic lines above and they dripped and then gushed 500 plus gallons of hydraulic fluid and up we go

    but then two more guys come up also looking the scene...hell I was starting to think that Biltmore House did not get so many visitors...

    so they poke around and look at this and that and I ask them why they were there...THEY were looking to see if our insurance company could sue someone else...like the motor manufacturer...or our electrican or some other third party


    I about fell over...we would have had no say whatsoever in them suing someone else because of our barn's fire...that moment changed forever how we view things here...

    again...I'm sorry for you...I was a 4H horse leader for 5 wonderful years and loved every second of it...those big smiles when the kids accomplished something was all the pay I ever needed

    best
    Last edited by Tamara in TN; Aug. 13, 2008 at 11:40 AM.
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun. 10, 2001
    Location
    nj
    Posts
    8,811

    Default our trail system runs through private properties.

    in fact, that's all it's made up of. i don't know how this is worked out with the landowners as far as liability. it's also open to hikers and cross country skiers. we're having our annual summer party in a couple of weeks and i'll try to find out how they work this out. i cannot imagine the trail association has a huge insurance policy. our dues are minimal, $25 per year for those who board on the trail system, i think even less for non equestrian users.
    http://www.eponashoe.com/
    TQ(Trail Queen) \"Learn How to Ride or Move Over!!\" Clique



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar. 14, 2008
    Posts
    129

    Default

    One of the biggest plusses to doing 4-H is the coverage we get from being active members. You would absolutely die if you saw the paperwork we do each year. Every single person who rides a horse or even comes into my barn (really, if they step beyond the gate, they better be signed up properly) has to be legal. I love the program, and we do it by the letter, and I have years behind me of doing so. When we talk with our insurance guy ( 4-H dad in another club) he tells us we have all the insurance we need. How's that?! We beg him to sell us more and he says we're good.
    I'm getting used to the idea, last night just hurt so bad. I have to keep this guy happy to some degree, without his ten acres (just can't use it...ARGHHHH!!!!) we have too many horses per acre, although to look at my place, you'd think there were maybe three or four. We work double time to keep it poop free and looking horse nice anyway. DOn't go in the house.
    MAN! That fire mess!!! You have my utmost respect for coming out sane. With the dog, if I do end up dead somehow, I see four or five such folks all standing over my corpse trying to figure who to send the bill to. "Let's see, who sold her this horse...better yet, who sold her the junk food that got her too fat so she couldn't stay on decently, let's go after them..."
    (My spouse works for BIG tobacco...haha)



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 28, 2003
    Location
    US
    Posts
    1,966

    Default "Training" the neighbors' dogs.

    Well, if I thought my horse would spook at the dogs, I might try biking past them first -- with a can of mace and a tennis racket. The racket is backup in case they get too close. The bike won't spook. And even if you fall, at least you're a few feet closer to the ground.

    Yell, "GO HOME," then mace them. Next time, just the yell should work.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2008
    Posts
    4,266

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BaaramuLuke View Post
    I need to do something.

    The problem here is that the whole neighborhood is the kind of place where all the land is owned by kin of the people who have had it for the last 150 years easily. We have this tiny slip of land one of them let go of, and I sought owning it after working from my teens to my thirties for a woman who had a big place a half mile from here. She passed on, another woman I know bought it, and we have permission to ride all over from all these people who know me from 1976 to today. We were really lucky to get it, arranged to buy it from the elder folks who had it and they left it to move back into town...
    Honestly it breaks my heart to see the use of the land ruined by greed and silly regulations. The last barn I boarded at had lost two beautiful areas to ride in because city folks had bought them and didn't want any strangers around (on hundreds and hundreds of acres of woods and hayfields...). One property contained the remains of an old town road, which everyone had used. Once purchased by the new people, the road became their two-mile long driveway, and off limits. Suddenly access to a whole mountaintop was cut off.

    Where I ride now, I have made a huge effort to make friends with each farmer, praying they won't wake up one day and decide not to allow riders.

    Much as it has its own problems, I appreciate the rights walkers and riders have in the UK - where despite traffic and development you can still ride your horse from town to town on bridle trails and permitted access to private land. It's a shame we haven't prioritized that here - it's a great loss culturally and recreationally, I think.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar. 20, 2005
    Location
    Ringgold, Georgia
    Posts
    38

    Default liability

    One thing that is being missed here is that if someone does fall of their horse and, say, breaks an arm on this man's property, even if they have no intention of suing him at all, ever, their health insurance may very well go after the owner of the property where the injury happened to try and recoup their losses. This happened to me a couple of years ago when I got bucked off my own horse on my own property and broke my hand. It required two very expensive surgeries, pins, the whole thing. I got a letter from my health insurance company that was more of a questionnaire than anything. I threw it away. Then I got a phone call from an adjuster wanting to know how this injury occurred. They kept calling it an injury. I kept calling it an accident. They wanted to know things like who owned the horse and under whose instruction I was at the time and who owned the property I was riding on. I work in the legal field and smelled something pretty rotten, so I flippantly told them, It's my horse, my property and if you sue him, he'll gladly pay you in manure. But can you imagine if I was on our neighbor's property and told them that without knowing what a big deal it could be? It stinks that you're being told you cannot ride on the property. But there is more to the whole liability issue than the average rider knows.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun. 10, 2001
    Location
    nj
    Posts
    8,811

    Default the insurance companies look out for themselves, but

    remember that it got to this point b/c of all the sue-happy folks out filing lawsuits at drop of a hat. it's unfortunate. seems that everyone complains about it but yet nothing changes in people's attitude...
    http://www.eponashoe.com/
    TQ(Trail Queen) \"Learn How to Ride or Move Over!!\" Clique



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar. 25, 2008
    Location
    Goshen NY
    Posts
    2,639

    Default Hay

    I know this is a small thing but could you put him on your policy as an additional insured? Would that help? Or buy a separate policy for that land...If you go the extra mile for the guy with insurance and help him out, maybe he'll lift his restriction.

    I can totally understand his side. And, it really doesn't matter how much insurance you have, if someone is going to sue over a hurt child, their anger takes over and EVERYONE - EVERYONE - gets sued. They may be the nicest people now but when their kid is hurt, they won't be and neither will their insurance company.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    May. 16, 2005
    Location
    Elmwood, Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,384

    Default Get politically active

    We have a law in my state (Wisconsin) called the Recreational Use Law
    which was enacted with support from snowmobilers, hunters, atv folk,
    etc. It basically says that if a landowner opens his land to other people
    to use for recreational uses, the landowner has no liability for injury
    to those folks. Ag extension here actually has a bulletin describing this
    law and its effects on landowners. I have copies of that bulletin and
    give it to landowners when asking to ride across their land.

    Check with extension in your area if such a law exists there. If you
    have one, see if you can get something like the bulletin I use or get
    a 4H parent who is a lawyer to write a formal opinion you can share
    with landowners. If you don't have such a law, its time to start a
    movement to get one passed there.
    Robin from Dancing Horse Hill
    Elmwood, Wisconsin



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 2007
    Location
    Beyond the pale.
    Posts
    2,957

    Default

    Robin that is excellent legislation and preserves the neighbourly spirit of rural areas.

    I am thankful we live on a public trail system which so far, we have defended the right to ride on.

    I train all my horses to head an attacking dog and face it down. Not a dog in the world will stand up to an advancing horse. My big warmblood LOVES this game and runs at them stamping his feet. It is a bit like riding a cutting horse though- they whirl and twirl and are very good at keeping the dog face to face.
    "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF



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