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  1. #41
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    Oct. 2, 1999
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    Mendocino County, CA: Turkey Vulture HQ
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    [QUOTE=Tamara in TN;3419649]


    Mr Warren also mentioned that jusst consigning them to a sale would have been $220,000....yes they are an inventory...but still a higher end inventory than most folks ever see in their day to day horse dealings
    Yeah, and I just love that number, too. That's nearly $5k a horse for selling costs. Not counting hauling them to the sale venue or paying the people to handle them there.

    Again, this is a place that CANTER has really stepped up to the plate to help - the CANTER horses aren't generally going for meat prices, but they're providing an alternative to a high dollar auction for buyers and sellers that can help these useful, but no longer solid gold, horses find the person who appreciates them. So thank you CANTER volunteers for stepping up to help everyone make mutually beneficial transactions.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  2. #42
    Join Date
    May. 18, 2007
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    Norco, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by goeslikestink View Post
    so why doesnt he invest his money into a re trianing programme for the horses if he cares that much of where they will end up,, have them gelded re trian them and then place them in decent homes-- sheik mohammad has been doing this in england for a little while now
    and moorcroft rescue centre is another one that re trians the race horses to name just two of the equine programmes with have in uk to help the tb racehorse
    My Dad and stepmum both volunteer aat Moorcroft and I spent a morning grooming there when back at home a couple of months ago. What a wonderful facility! And yes - Sheikh Mohammad's retraining and rehoming program for his own racehorses is a truly great contribution from a wealthy owner.

    A P.S. to something Warren said: It does not cost $5K to simply run a horse through the auction ring at Barretts. Yes, there is an entry fee (not a lot of money), yes there are commissions (5% to auction, 5% to consignor), and yes there is a day rate to a consignor (for maybe 5 days). I still cannot in any way run that up to $5K per horse in costs, even if many of them did not bring minimum bid (which is $1000) and so ended up going home after the sale...



  3. #43

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    [QUOTE][QUOTE=poltroon;3419695]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara in TN View Post

    Yeah, and I just love that number, too. That's nearly $5k a horse for selling costs. Not counting hauling them to the sale venue or paying the people to handle them there.

    QUOTE]
    I am not as up on higher end TB sales as I should be,but if one does consider 90 days of full feed and sales prep I would not doubt that the end fees could be quite high...in the end this is his standard practice....

    older and non money winners and nicks that are not going to pay he gives away...he does not deny this that I am aware...but he was not happy that they were not in CA and that they were in the place they were in...

    if for nothing else he would miss out on any revenues from being listed as their breeder when they did race somewhere later (isn't it like 5% of lifetime winnings money you get EVEN if you give them away...that's free money three/four years from now with no upkeep)...

    I was told long ago that I just had to"hang out" in KY and any and every farm and track up there would do the same thing...for one reason or another...
    Last edited by Tamara in TN; Aug. 6, 2008 at 09:31 PM.
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
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    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
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    17,603

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    I think some of the old lines need to be preserved for preservation's sake. And if that means breeding a decently conformed rescue horse, so be it. The fact is that Thoroughbred racing has gone into a sort of dead end with increased unsoundness and lack of stamina. If the old lines are dying out, I actually think we have an obligation to try and save representatives for the gene pool.

    We all seem to agree that the short distance dirt track TB isn't optimal for sport horses. Some of us believe that the sport horse TB is worth preserving against the WB invasions.

    Can you imagine what the American racing world would be like if some of the great old American lines were still active? Man O'War and Himyar hang on by one or two active lines. Some hang on by only one. That's why Mr. Bolg is so interesting. He is Teddy sire line through Damascus, the only one left in the US. If one of those mares is sireline Tourbillon, she is worth breeding, and if one of those mares is dam line Agnes or La Troienne or Lavendula or Lalun or..., she is worth breeding. Even if she is a rescue and culled by a race breeder.

    As so many have said, what is trash on today's race tracks can be treasure on tomorrow's XC course. Or maybe even tomorrow's racetracks, if the blood is preserved and fashions change. One of the things that is well established in TB breeding is the concept of fallow generations in female families that suddenly, with the right matings, become highly productive.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  5. #45
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    May. 18, 2007
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    Norco, CA
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    Tamara, if we were talking about premium yearlings or two year olds - I'd completely agree; the costs of prep plus sales etc. can run very high indeed. But most large scale breeding operations in CA don't send out their own broodmares and stallions for sales prep; they do it themselves, and it's not extensive in the way that's required for, say, an unbroke yearling. Warren has a large training facility on site as well as a breeding farm. They're all in good weight. They have summer coats. You'd clip them up a little, sure, but that's about it. His quote referred to Barretts, the auction house, as the "cost of just running them through the ring". My estimate says that he'd have to be anticipating selling them for about $30K a pop to warrant a $5K a head sales cost including shipping from down the road in Hemet...



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Sep. 28, 2005
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    The Great Wet Pacific Northwest
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    261

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    I'm going by memory of War Admiral's previous posts, but isn't her life rather unstable. Didn't she decamp to Sunkissed Acres with the kindness and generosity of fellow Cloth readers and posters earlier this year, because things collapsed where her horse Avery was boarded, and her employment situation was tenious because her boss was an explosive nutjob. (A life lived online, is a life shared by many readers).

    Stallion management requires a certain amount of stability on the part of the owner and exceedly good fences if the stallion is to be kept intact and safe. Testosterone is a powerful motivator.

    Breeding the guy, whether he be worthy or not is another ball of wax.



  7. #47
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    Sep. 24, 2001
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    Lexington, Kentucky
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    Has anyone taken a good hard look at the sales results recently? Unless you have a very good to excellent individual, your chances of selling a horse at a TB auction aren't so hot.

    No one needs to educate me on the ins and outs of the TB sale business. Just trust me on that one.

    My point is there are TOO MANY HORSES. Why? Because greedy breeders are in it FOR THE MONEY, not to better the breed. Why else would someone have (conservatively) 100 mares booked to their freshman stud - the newly-retired three year old who won a dinger? Of those 100 mares, how many of them pass muster as "the best"? Multiply this scenario about ten times over and you can see what the problem is.

    And just because Mr. Studly didn't hit the big time in Kentucky does not mean he will magically throw better foals in Wyoming. Wyoming breeders should have just as high a standard as Kentucky breeders.

    I sit at the sales and watch these horses go through the ring, and after the first couple of thousand, it starts to get to me. Yep, I'm hysterical. It's morally wrong to produce all these horses, and that is a very strong belief that I will hold onto. No argument could possibly sway me.

    To take a breeder's tossaway stallion and think that you can take him to a "B" or "C" state and use him to produce what that state's standards label as usable is poor breeding practices. It would be better to ship those states' mares to a superior stallion in an effort to improve the state-bred stock.

    Not so hard to figure out.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton



  8. #48
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    Jun. 30, 2006
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    SF Bay Area, California
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    Quote Originally Posted by arabhorse2 View Post
    I'd like to see all stallions that go through rescue gelded before they're given out to adoptees.
    Amen.



  9. #49
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    Aug. 23, 2002
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    Prospect, ME
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    hitch - I don't disagree with your points at all. There are big breeders producing too many horses for sure.

    However, I don't see anything wrong with breeding a horse that came on bad times, as long as it's a well bred, well put together horse. With a temperment you'd want to reproduce, and with all the other desirable traits you'd look for.

    I'm not sure that making a blanket statement that "no rescued horse should be bred. EVER." is the best way to approach the situation...

    If someone was interested in selectively breeding any of these horses in AZ.. or any other "rescue" situation (assuming they fit all the requirements), I don't see anything wrong with it.
    -Jessica



  10. #50
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    Sep. 24, 2001
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    Lexington, Kentucky
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    We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I see your point, and I appreciate you stating it so clearly. I just don't agree with it.

    Thanks.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton



  11. #51
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    Aug. 12, 2001
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    Trailer Trash Ammy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sing Mia Song View Post
    Hold on just a moment. It seems a bit of education is in order here.

    When a stallion changes locations, his production numbers follow him for the purposes of determining his standings. For instance, let's say that Studly stands in KY, has 2 winners from 10 starters, and his earnings are $10,000. He wouldn't even be on the standings in KY, but if he moves to Wyoming, he's top sire. He need not ever cover another mare--it's automatic. That's why you will see deceased or pensioned stallions still in the standings (Allen's Prospect, Crown Pleaser and Eastern Echo are all dead, but are still 6th, 7th and 8th on the Maryland stallion charts.
    Thank you, yes. When he steps off the trailer here, cojones intact or not, if the rescue & I choose to change his "legal" place of residence, he goes straight to #1 in the GA listing. By a considerable margin. That's what I was referring to.

    And in case y'all aren't aware, all I'm doing at this point is fostering this horse for the rescue. The horse needs a place to live right now or he goes to Mexico. I happen, right now, to be in an ideal situation to foster the horse while he is evaluated. I'm on a breeding farm, with safe stallion facilities, and 4 other full-time employees, all of whom have considerable stallion handling experience. What they lack in TB experience, I make up for. What I lack in stallion experience (I do have some, but not a lot!), *they* make up for. We all work together well, communicate well, and are sensible. Nobody here is going to panic, do something stupid that you shouldn't ever be doing with a stallion, and SUE THE RESCUE. (Don't think *that* has never happened.)

    My offer of a foster home (which COULD become permanent... or not...) and an evaluation buys this horse some time that he would not otherwise have; so that the rescue can see "who he is", what they've got, and make a decision. We'll be working together to make sure the horse gets put to his highest best use, gelded or not.

    Where's the "lose" here?
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  12. #52
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    Aug. 5, 2008
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    16

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    I wouldnt exactly call anything that ran out over $100,000 "Trash".

    I bought a TB mare I considered a rescue. I happened to end up at a bank dispersal sale of horses from a TB farm. It was pure happenstance that I was even there. Very few people there and it was mainly kill buyers. I bought a very nice 9 yr old stakes winning mare for $600. I bred her that following year to a horse that had won the Santa Anita Derby and was 3rd in the Kentucky Derby. She gave us a filly who also happened to win a couple stakes races, and has moved on to a broodie for a Jumper barn and has produced 2 Grand Prix Jumpers.
    Those horses do not deserve to be where they are in the hands they are in.



  13. #53
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    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Lorena, Texas
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    I don't know the horse in question, nor do I know enough about TBs to be a really good judge. I'm also not going to comment on WA's personal situation as a) it is personal and b) things CHANGE and she may be in a perfect place to stand a stallion. I don't know!

    I'll also add that our rescue does geld and adopts out mares with a no-breeding clause. However we've had a few situations where we did some research before making that decision. Once was with a mammoth jack, a breed that's considered endangered by the Rare Breeds Conservatory. We talked to some donkey experts who felt that while the breed needs to be preserved, our Henry wasn't a good candidate. So we did go ahead and breed them. In rare cases, we might make an exception, depending on the animal and the person adopting. We haven't done that yet, but we're not closing the door on the possibility.

    It does just kill me when everyone decides that no one can own a stallion or that they have the answers. I own a stallion AND run a rescue. The stallion didn't come from the rescue and isn't being bred, and I still get grief for owning a stallion from a lot of people who seem to think all horses should be gelded. You need to look at the individual, the owner, the situation and THEN make the call.
    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com



  14. #54
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    Sep. 24, 2001
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    Lexington, Kentucky
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    Question for War Admiral:

    Would you have taken in this horse if he was a gelding?
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton



  15. #55
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    Apr. 9, 2005
    Location
    Colorado
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    I think what everyone can agree upon is that there should be responsible horse ownership. WA is being responsible in having the proper facility and people around who can manage a stallion while professional assessments are made about his potential future. My personal thoughts are let's see this horse, get the evaluations, and then make some responsible choices that are not simply based on this not being Mr. Warren's choice of a stallion to keep for a racing stud.

    I applaud all the people able and willing to step up and care for these horses.



  16. #56
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    Aug. 5, 2008
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    16

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    Thank you, yes. When he steps off the trailer here, cojones intact or not, if the rescue & I choose to change his "legal" place of residence, he goes straight to #1 in the GA listing. By a considerable margin. That's what I was referring to.

    And in case y'all aren't aware, all I'm doing at this point is fostering this horse for the rescue. The horse needs a place to live right now or he goes to Mexico. I happen, right now, to be in an ideal situation to foster the horse while he is evaluated. I'm on a breeding farm, with safe stallion facilities, and 4 other full-time employees, all of whom have considerable stallion handling experience. What they lack in TB experience, I make up for. What I lack in stallion experience (I do have some, but not a lot!), *they* make up for. We all work together well, communicate well, and are sensible. Nobody here is going to panic, do something stupid that you shouldn't ever be doing with a stallion, and SUE THE RESCUE. (Don't think *that* has never happened.)

    My offer of a foster home (which COULD become permanent... or not...) and an evaluation buys this horse some time that he would not otherwise have; so that the rescue can see "who he is", what they've got, and make a decision. We'll be working together to make sure the horse gets put to his highest best use, gelded or not.

    Where's the "lose" here?
    War Admiral, dont question yourself, your plans, and your motives. He is a nice horse, that just happened to be owned by a heartless a$$ and fell on unfortunate circumstances. He is not a "fugly", far from it and has much to offer any avenue you care to take him. He is not deserving of his current situation at all. You will be blessed.



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2003
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    18,472

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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I think some of the old lines need to be preserved for preservation's sake. And if that means breeding a decently conformed rescue horse, so be it. The fact is that Thoroughbred racing has gone into a sort of dead end with increased unsoundness and lack of stamina. If the old lines are dying out, I actually think we have an obligation to try and save representatives for the gene pool.

    We all seem to agree that the short distance dirt track TB isn't optimal for sport horses. Some of us believe that the sport horse TB is worth preserving against the WB invasions.

    Can you imagine what the American racing world would be like if some of the great old American lines were still active? Man O'War and Himyar hang on by one or two active lines. Some hang on by only one. That's why Mr. Bolg is so interesting. He is Teddy sire line through Damascus, the only one left in the US. If one of those mares is sireline Tourbillon, she is worth breeding, and if one of those mares is dam line Agnes or La Troienne or Lavendula or Lalun or..., she is worth breeding. Even if she is a rescue and culled by a race breeder.

    As so many have said, what is trash on today's race tracks can be treasure on tomorrow's XC course. Or maybe even tomorrow's racetracks, if the blood is preserved and fashions change. One of the things that is well established in TB breeding is the concept of fallow generations in female families that suddenly, with the right matings, become highly productive.
    As someone who wishes she could find more well bred "for sport" TB's who have never seen a training farm or a race track, I fervently wish that Vineyridge's vision come true. I think as Americans we have almost wasted one of our greatest treasures (well, if you are a horse person, you might feel this way!) and I am thrilled everytime I hear of anyone trying to rectify it.

    This country has an obssession with all things European (I married a Frenchman, so I am guilty, too) and there is an assumption that everything across the pond is inherently better. When it comes to horses, it's just not true (might be about men but that's another subject) so I am glad to hear that these stallions might be evaluated for use as sport horse sires. And I could care less that they came thru a rescue, that is nothing more than circumstances and an asshat owner.

    We don't need less nice horses in the world, we need less trash. There is always a good home for a good conformed, good minded horse.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2007
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    513

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    "And, FYI, I have several "rescued" (ie, not making it on the track so I got them for little to no $$), well bred, well put together, sweet mares that I do plan on breeding to produce sport horse foals.
    Would someone like to start making personal attacks on me now or later? "

    I don't think the personal attacks are coming your way. The questions to the potential adopter concern her past history, as another put it 'a life lived online' that has several questionable events. Including a begging for (or being given or however she justifies it) money by COTHers for personal issues. I think that is a large part of the concern now, in this particular case. If you're going to spread your life all over the internet and in such "interesting" situations, it will be noticed and commented on.

    In the more general sense of this topic, I'm among the geld them before they leave camp. I volunteered for a rescue here for a bit and they did a good job with any boys that came in. That was one of the things they got right. Of course, we didn't have any world beaters or anything resembling boys who should reproduce, so was easy. If the stallion is well bred, has done things and for some reason fell on hard times, I might rethink my position. However for this particular stallion and this foster/adopter/whatever, he doesn't need balls.



  19. #59
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    Aug. 12, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
    Question for War Admiral:

    Would you have taken in this horse if he was a gelding?
    Honestly? Not sight unseen, definitely not. BUT that's the difference between fostering and adopting. Frankly I'm not even really looking for a personal horse at this point - but someone else here who'll be working w/ the horse along with me is, so if it happens to work out that this is the right horse for her, then great, right? Adoption app, Snip-snip, everybody's happy.

    If I were ADOPTING, and taking a horse as a personal project horse, I would want it to be useful for the things *I* want to do. Breeding TBs doesn't top that list, even though you seem to have this idee fixe in your head that it does... I just thought the stat was kinda cool/funny/cute, so I posted it... Realistically, if he ends up going back out for placement, #1 in GA looks better on his CV than #235 in CA, y/y?

    The reality: A nice-sounding, quite well-bred stallion with lines I admire urgently needed a foster home with safe stallion facilities. I have a one-year lease on a breeding farm with safe stallion facilities, and at least one potential adopter w/ stallion experience who'll be working this horse with me. The rescue is aware of this.

    So he stays here entire for a couple months (he can't be gelded in this weather anyway, just healthwise - at least I don't know any reputable vets who would recommend it) while we all research, consult, eyeball the guy in person, work with him a bit, and see what we've got. Decisions are made after that - unless of course he gets here and there are overwhelmingly good reasons to make those decisions sooner.

    Th-th-that's all, folks. You're making so much heavier weather of this than it actually is...!!!!

    3C: Thanks. Some pretty high-up pros in the industry with firsthand knowledge of the horse have said the same.

    Sanely Eccentric: Thanks for the voice of reason.

    Hoofprince: Bless your heart; it's always a pleasure to see you folks from The Manure Pile drop by!
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2002
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    Prospect, ME
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitchinmygetalong View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I see your point, and I appreciate you stating it so clearly. I just don't agree with it.

    Thanks.
    I'm perfectly ok with that.

    Thank you for agreeing to disagree (and who the heck knows, if I was in KY and had seen what you've seen at the sales, I might see things your way too).

    Edited to add: I only breed babies I would keep for myself... and I'm fully prepared TO keep them for myself if I can't find longterm, happy homes for them once they are suitable to be sold.)
    -Jessica



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