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  1. #1
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    Thumbs up '' Feeding the Hoof ''

    New article by Pete Ramey addressing correct nutrition for your horses feet. Great info regardless of wether or not your horse is bare or shod.
    http://www.hoofrehab.com/diet.htm



  2. #2
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    Wow! What a cool article! I need to get enrolled in that course. Thanks for pointing it out.



  3. #3
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    Your welcome. It is a cool article. DH and my best freind that got him started in trimming will no doubt be taking it too.So much to learn !



  4. #4
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    It seems from what Pete says to be one more piece of the puzzle in providing good hoof care and helping horses achieve their best health possible. I am excited to give it a try. I did switch my herd over to Progressive Grass Balancer this Spring and I've noticed an improvement in hoof quality in the resulting months in stronger new growth and improved hair coats as well.



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    It seems from what Pete says to be one more piece of the puzzle in providing good hoof care and helping horses achieve their best health possible. I am excited to give it a try. I did switch my herd over to Progressive Grass Balancer this Spring and I've noticed an improvement in hoof quality in the resulting months in stronger new growth and improved hair coats as well.

    Yes, it apparently is key to feed approprately to your area. Here , we have had fantastic results with ADM's Stay Strong Metabolic Mineral Pellets. Huge difference in hoof/ hair quality.Thanks to Katy Watts for telling us about this product.

    Glad to post the link. Nice that Pete 's articles are free and that he is a passionate learner. Opps, there i go again, '' pimping '' for Pete. I need a tag line that says '' Happily Pimping for Pete Ramey and Katy Watts ''



  6. #6
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    I guess I'm a pimp too! I send people/clients to their websites ALL the time now. They are great resources for all of us hoof care providers and horse owners and I am grateful to them for sharing their knowledge freely.



  7. #7
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    I saw a lot of holes in this article.....

    For starters, the fact that only one source is mentioned.

    The article stated:
    "The horses with little or no access to green grass are subject to the same problems as well- it all depends on the hay field. The hay-drying process eliminates vitamin E and essential fatty acids so important for skin (hooves) and for fighting inflammation. These must be supplemented if the horse has limited access to green stuff."

    Second, it doesn't mention
    to look at the horse, but to rather test the forage. It may be a good idea, if you take the horse (that thing you're feeding) into account. For example, blindly supplementing Vit. E and selenium can have toxic side effects. Selenium or Vit E deficiencies has clear symptoms, most notably muscle degeneration (associated with a high CK value) and cardiac problems in growing animals. You can test your horse's selenium levels, to see if he is deficient, or if additional supplementation can put your horse in the toxic range. Selenium is very toxic causing blind staggers and hoof deformities. (Source: Dr. Jonathan Naylor graduated from the University of Bristol with degrees in Veterinary Medicine and Biochemistry. He obtained his PhD degree and Board Certification in Internal Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Naylor was one of the identify HYPP and it's genetic links.)

    Nutritional requirements for Vit. E are increased by diets high in polyunsaturated fats and exercise. Good sources of Vit. E include seed or germ oils from plants, green forage or well-cured hays (including dehydrated alfalfa meal). (source: Animal Feeding and Nutrition by Dr. Marshall Jurgens D.V.M., M.S., PhD)Legumes have more Calcium, Carotene and Vitamin E. (Source: Dr. K. Yvorchuk-St Jean., D.V.M., DACVIM) Sadly, many 'anti shoe' trimmers advise that alfalfa is the devil.

    "If your horses are having problems of any kind, you can bet there is a nutritional component." "The nutrition balance may be all or part of your horse’s problem, whether you are concerned about a training issue, recovery from an illness or carving 2/10 of a second off your lap time."

    No need to take management, disease, training, soundness, temperament, etc into account?

    I beleive I have seen Katy Wats mention on the CertiCarb Flyer is that there is a wide variety in what is labeled on the container and what the feed or supplement actually contains. This is not a new concept. Consumer Labs (www.Consumerlab.com) has been testing supplements and also offers their reports to the public (also for a fee). The University of Maryland did a study on Chondroitin sulfate supplements and found that there was label deviations from label claims in 9 of 11 products (84%). The range of mislabeled products ranged from 0%- 115%. You got what you paid for. Products costing < or = $1.00/1200 mg were seriously deficient (<10% of the label claim). (Source: AO Abadowale, et al, Am. Nutraceut. Association, 2000) This article is claiming to have the feeds/hay tested, but not the supplements designed to fix the deficiency!

    Biotin is not mentioned at all! While it is found at excellent levels in canola meal, safflower meal, young green grasses, growing cereals and legumes (alfalfa). Biotin supplementation has lead to increased hoof formation in horses. 10-30mg/horse is a therapeutic dose, and usually it takes at least 3 months before improvement can be seen. (Source: Dr. Naylor, see above for credentials).

    Sadly, it seems as if the people who write articles like this always seem to be selling something. You can buy several factual nutrition textbooks for the few hundred dollars the online course will cost. Or, better yet, take a college level Nutrition class. Heck, you can even get a master's level certification in Nutrition...



  8. #8
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    Biotin is not mentioned at all! While it is found at excellent levels in canola meal, safflower meal, young green grasses, growing cereals and legumes (alfalfa). Biotin supplementation has lead to increased hoof formation in horses. 10-30mg/horse is a therapeutic dose, and usually it takes at least 3 months before improvement can be seen. (Source: Dr. Naylor, see above for credentials).
    While that's true, the biggest key is having the correct amounts of the important amino acids in the diet. If you'll look at the ingredients of a lot of the best hoof supplements, that's what you'll see the most of. If those were met in the diet, the supplements wouldn't be necessary. That's one reason I'm an advocate of ration balancers, like Progressive, and making sure that horses are receiving the recommended levels of the feed they are on.



  9. #9
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    I was a little concerned at his understanding of calcium levels-that horses on grains and grass hays will get sufficient calcium.

    Grains are inverted-low calcium and high phosphorus...and grass hays are typically not high calcium.

    Mine run just at 1.5-1 and I lime...



  10. #10
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    Default LMH

    LMH, I'm going to get my info and send it to you for help. I just switched Cloudy from Smartpaks brand hoof ultra to glanzen. After a year on Next Level Hoof Supplement. He needs to grow a right fore hoof!
    Here in coastal Georgia, we have sand, mud and coastal bermuda.



  11. #11
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    Please do, I am happy to help



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    I was a little concerned at his understanding of calcium levels-that horses on grains and grass hays will get sufficient calcium.

    Grains are inverted-low calcium and high phosphorus...and grass hays are typically not high calcium.

    Mine run just at 1.5-1 and I lime...
    You're right.
    One of the most common feeds high in Calcium is Alfalfa hay.
    For example, as fed on a dry matter basis, sun-cured alfalfa cut in midbloom contains 1.24% calcium.
    Compare that with grass hay (as fed on a dry matter basis), sun cured, cut in full bloom contains 0.51% calcium. Oats used in grain have 0.08% calcium. (Source: National Research Council)

    I would like to learn about the case referenced by the article diet on grass hay has a Ca/P ratio of 5:1. I'm sure if this article was published in a peer-reviewed journal, they would also like to see the reference.

    Vitamin D is involved in absorption and bone deposition. Excess Phos. decreases Ca. absorption. Excess Mg. decreases absorption, and replaces Ca. in bone and increases Ca. excretion. (source: Animal Feeding and Nutrition by Jurgens)

    According to Dr. K. Yvorchuk-St Jean., D.V.M., DACVIM [which means board-certificated diplomat of the American College of Vet,. Internal Medicine] (citing sources such as the 2002 and 2000 AAEP Convention Lectures, Equine Internal Medicine text by Reed, Bayly, & Saunders, Equine Clinical Nutrition- Feeding and Care of the Horse text by Lewis), the ideal ratio for growing horses is 2:1 (with an acceptable range of 1.2:1-2:1). "Adult horses can tolerate more variability with ratios ranging from 1:1-6:1. Never feed a Ca:P ratio of less than 1:1; at this level there is an interference with Ca absorption because excess Phos. results in binding to Ca. Alfalfa Ca/P ratio generally range from 3:1-6:1. Adults can tolerate wide ranges, but ratios >3:1 are generally not recommended for young growing horses.

    REMEMBER THAT A FEED MAY BE EVALUATED AND HAVE ENOUGH CA AND P THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE AVAILABLE TO THE HORSE. Many things can interfere with availability. Phosphorous is only usually about 30% available due to phytate concentrations, and phytates, as well as oxalates, can affect (decrease) CA availability. Phytates can be seen in feeds such as bran, and oxolates are found in feeds such as PASTURE GRASSES. High levels of dietary P impair Ca absorption. Interactions also exist between Ca, Cu, Zn, Cd. Fat-soluble vitamins may compete for the same absorption systems.

    Diseases associated with calcium deficiency may be clinical or sub-clinical. Some diseases reportedly associated with calcium deficiency include ruptured tendons, spontaneous fractures, nasal discharges, tying up, poor performance, and reduced exercise tolerance. Relative and true excess in phosphorous will cause bigheaded, bony deformations due to changes in bone calcification most noted in the head of the horse."


    Advising horse owners to test their hays, and heed the advice of other amateurs on a Yahoo group, without taking the actual horse into account or consulting a professional in the field seems like a potentially dangerous suggestions.

    The article states:

    "I bought an over-the-counter hoof supplement that had the highest zinc and copper levels I could find, and it almost immediately improved the hoof quality of every horse in those pastures. "

    How is that possible? If the supplement is biologically available to the animal, and the animal was truly deficient in the mineral, how is there immediate hoof quality improvement? Wouldn't new hoof growth be the only thing affected? I would expect the new growth to produce a stronger hoof in months, not immediately. Unless you are magician. I guess I should buy the propaganda, otherwise I just won't understand?



  13. #13
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    Honestly I did not take the article as telling anyone to automatically add anything to the diet without first having the feed and diet analyzed and getting the results interpreted. He gave sources on how to do that and how to learn to read the results. As for hoof quality improving, I would suspect he meant new hoof growth. I know Pete and have cliniced with him and he's very clear to point out that the new hoof growth growing down from the coronet is what you look at to help determine results and not necessarily what you are working with on the bottom of the hoof. I just suspect that you are taking his message a bit too literally and he meant to say, educate yourself and balance your horses' diet is there is a deficiency and that by doing so you might be able to improve the overall health and hoof quality of your horses. That is ALL I took from it.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Grains are inverted-low calcium and high phosphorus...and grass hays are typically not high calcium.
    Out here in the west, everything is typically high calcium. As with many things, it depends.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatPalomino View Post
    Y
    How is that possible? If the supplement is biologically available to the animal, and the animal was truly deficient in the mineral, how is there immediate hoof quality improvement? Wouldn't new hoof growth be the only thing affected? I would expect the new growth to produce a stronger hoof in months, not immediately. Unless you are magician.
    Precisely.

    I guess I should buy the propaganda, otherwise I just won't understand?
    Nah, you're way to astute for that.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Watts View Post
    Out here in the west, everything is typically high calcium. As with many things, it depends.
    Can you expand on this? Are there any peer reviewed studies that looked at this?

    I didn't know that 'everything out west' was high in Calcium. As everything I would understand that Triple Crown grain (manufactured not out west), oats, grass hay, and beet pulp are all high in Ca? If so, why isn't every horse 'out west' affected?



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    Honestly I did not take the article as telling anyone to automatically add anything to the diet without first having the feed and diet analyzed and getting the results interpreted.
    Suprisingly, I agree.

    As for hoof quality improving, I would suspect he meant new hoof growth. I know Pete and have cliniced with him and he's very clear to point out that the new hoof growth growing down from the coronet is what you look at to help determine results and not necessarily what you are working with on the bottom of the hoof.
    Well he did say he got immediate results which is just impossible. He would have been better served to have said something along the lines of, "Improvements in hoof quality will be first noticed in new horn that is growing down from the coronary band. This process often takes several months or more so it is important that once you start a new feed/supplement regimen you stick with it for an extended period of time. Do not expect to see immediate visible results. " Or words to that effect. Had he done that, he would have done a greater service to horseowners than the article now does. JMNTBCHO.
    Last edited by Rick Burten; Aug. 5, 2008 at 07:44 PM.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoofrx1 View Post
    Suprisingly, I agree.
    Did we just make history?

    Quote Originally Posted by hoofrx1 View Post
    Well he did say he got immediate results which is just impossible. He would have been better served to have said something along the lines of, "Improvements in hoof quality will be first noticed in new horn that is growing down from the coronary band. This process often takes several months or more so it is important that once you start a new feed/supplement regimen you stick with it for an extended period of time. Do not expect to see immediate visible results. " Or words to that effect. Had he done that, he would have done a greater service to horseowners than the article now does. JMNTBCHO.
    I do agree that it could have been better written. Wait...we agree again?



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatPalomino View Post

    "If your horses are having problems of any kind, you can bet there is a nutritional component." "The nutrition balance may be all or part of your horse’s problem, whether you are concerned about a training issue, recovery from an illness or carving 2/10 of a second off your lap time."

    No need to take management, disease, training, soundness, temperament, etc into account?
    Here is the full quote in context :


    '' These are only a few small examples of many. Horses need to consume each nutrient in adequate amounts and usually in balance with the amounts of several other nutrients. This is not just about growing healthy hooves, either. Balanced nutrition profoundly effects attitude, immune function, strength, endurance, recovery; actually every aspect of health and performance. If your horses are having problems of any kind, you can bet there is a nutritional component. So far, every time I have had troubles growing healthy feet and have tested the forage, I have found significant mineral ratio problems and/or deficiency- every time. The nutrition balance may be all or part of your horse’s problem, whether you are concerned about a training issue, recovery from an illness or carving 2/10 of a second off your lap time. ''

    Pete said '' MAY be all or part ''.

    Yes, after addressing diet , one can move on to training, etc. Pete possibly should have said '' chances are good, instead of '' you can bet '', if one wants to nit pick .

    And Daydream, I agree 100 %.With both of your posts.

    Here is the reference from the article about alfalfa :

    Alfalfa and in some areas even grass hays tend to have a ratio of 5+ :1. This creates a functional lack of phosphorus that can lead to angular deformities in foals and bone loss in older horses. This does not mean that you should blindly supplement phosphorus. Too much phosphorus also robs the horse of calcium. You must test the forage!

    He does not say don't or never feed it.


    Glad some folks are finding the article helpful. I know it's not meant to be the be all and end all definitive work on nutrition, but another piece to help educate horse owners.
    Last edited by AZ Native; Aug. 6, 2008 at 10:29 AM.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Native View Post
    New article by Pete Ramey addressing correct nutrition for your horses feet. Great info regardless of wether or not your horse is bare or shod.
    http://www.hoofrehab.com/diet.htm
    Well it's nice to analyze your forage, but this isn't anything new.

    I suppose when one is a demigod one has to keep feeding the disciples, so that they will continue to evangelize. Keep the money flowing in, folks.

    And so it was written...



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