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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Oct. 3, 2007
    Location
    PA
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    5,244

    Default

    Well, good luck Supernatural. It stinks that you can't just go get your horse. I never thought about the fact that you would be trespassing if you went to get him back. But that's me - sometimes I don't think things through all the way.

    I hope that whoever has him does the right thing and that he comes home safe and sound. He looks like a lovely boy. Please keep us posted.



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec. 12, 2000
    Location
    Washington, D.C., U.S.A.
    Posts
    4,155

    Default

    The thing I don't get, supernatural... is why did you post this as a Missing Horse Alert when you know where everyone (including the horse) is? If you're sending certified letters, why not just post it as, "How do I get my horse back from BNT to transferred him to another barn without my permission?"

    The fact that you misrepresented this situation (and seem to be using this forum really to sling legal threats against these people rather than anything else), really shoots your credibility where I'm concerned.



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Aug. 29, 2000
    Location
    Land of Pink and Green
    Posts
    1,165

    Default Im so sorry

    So sorry this is happening..just stinks...And I have to say, I've let my horse go on trial without any formal paperwork, so don't feel thay you're the only one who would make such a mistake...I prefer to think that ALL horse people are good people, but then again, I am fully aware I exist in my own little Land of Make Believe!

    I hope you hear something soon! Good Luck!



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jul. 11, 2008
    Location
    Wellie World
    Posts
    315

    Default

    Thats the mind frame to have...

    I understand where you are coming from when you posted this. You are heartbroken and want other people to understand what happens if they ever have to be in the same situation as you. As far as people saying to just go and get the horse back... if it was that easy, i can guarentee supernatural would already have him back! I dont want to start any fights or anything, but give super a break... they just lost their horse and are doing what they need to try and get him back.

    I do not question your credibility at all... as they have stated many times... there is no guarentee that the horse is still at the same property... Let the police deal with the culprits and try and stay out of it as much as possible. I know that is hard, but what i mean by that is do not go and do anything irrational, as it can only cause you more problems. I think you are doing everything that you can and doing it the right way...

    Please keep me updated on how your search is going!!!



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Apr. 3, 2003
    Location
    Up the creek from bar.ka
    Posts
    10,076

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by supernatural View Post
    Quite frankly, I don't care what any "thinks". I just want the horse back. If posting this helps get him back, so be it. None of you are in my shoes right now. I'm trying to do the right thing by him. I don't know where he is today or what type of conditions he is living in. My phone calls have not been returned. I've been ignored.

    I hope none of you are ever in this situation. I blame myself. I was stupid. I'm just trying to make this right for the horse. He did not deserve this.
    Well surely if the people have enough dough to be looking at a horse priced at 35K, or whatever it is, they have the horse in a safe and clean barn. I'm sure no one wants the horse to get injured or sick. Unless you're dealing with the dredges of society who have some personal vendeta against you and are aiming to take it out on the horse, but that hardly seems like the case. Is it?



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jun. 25, 2008
    Posts
    698

    Default

    idk if i was really REALLY worried about my horse, i would be making the five hour drive, even if i didnt know the EXACT location, i would go to the last known location.. like i said before someone there probably knows where the horse is or i would wait for the owner of the barn/ BNT.. i guess what im trying to say is that idk why the police have not advised you to go there with them to find the horse... again im not in your shoes and its not my horse, and idk who the BNT is or what the terms of this deal were.....

    If they are still trying to sell the horse, hes probably fine no one will want to buy a horse that looks skinny/ beat up/ unhappy.. so again im sure he is Okay not ideal but Okay. Best of luck with this whole thing and im sure we would all like to know how this plays out, incase it ever happens to us..

    and for the record my posts werent meant to be mean or rude, i was just trying to understand the reasoning behind the decisions you have made.



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2000
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,551

    Default

    supernatural, I think you'll find wonderful and caring people on this board. I don't believe for a moment anyone doubts you or anything you've said. I think perhaps Riley misunderstood your comments on your horse being moved more than once which makes it pretty impossible to go storming over there with the police. I hope and pray you get your horse back quickly and in good health.

    http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff
    \"If you are going through hell, keep going.\" ~Churchill~



  8. #48
    Join Date
    May. 6, 2007
    Location
    Napanee ON
    Posts
    5,230

    Default

    A lot can happen in those 3 days. If something happens, you will never forgive yourself.

    Why did you say you don't owe anybody money....no one on here said anything about that did they? This just really isnt adding up....

    Go get your horse!!!!!! What the H#%*($* are you waiting for! Christ I would ride it home if I had to...



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Apr. 3, 2003
    Location
    Up the creek from bar.ka
    Posts
    10,076

    Default

    Wow, what a mess and a hard lesson to learn. Best of luck to you in getting this resolved.



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 2006
    Posts
    284

    Default

    I'm thinking the folks who took the horse just took him on trial and may have been given permission by BNT to do so? So it's BNT that needs to help you here? Just asking.....



  11. #51
    Join Date
    May. 6, 2006
    Location
    rapidan,virginia
    Posts
    2,018

    Default Trespassing...........

    OK, the misdemeanor offense of trespassing has to occur in the presence of a law enforcement officer in order for you to get arrested. Otherwise, if you have previously been barred from a property, and then you show up there, the property owner who witnessed your presence on said property can then go get a warrant for your arrest. You will get "arrested", but since it is a releasable offense, the officer who does so will have you sign a summons which says you will have to appear in court. The property owner who swore out the warrant will also have to appear in court. (By the way, when you get a speeding ticket, for instance, you are also technically "arrested" and you sign a summons.)

    I, for one, would love to be arrested for the offense of trespassing while I was retrieving my own property (horse) and then get to explain to the judge why I was there. In any case, the worst that would happen is that I am found guilty and I will pay a fine, more likely the case would be thrown out or the property owner would not even show up in court because he/she doesn't want it explained in court (public record) why you were there. In any case, YOU WOULD HAVE YOUR HORSE BACK.

    But in real life, you show up with trailer, farm owner (agent? BNT?) says "you can't be here, you're trespassing!", you say "you're right, call the cops while I load my horse." Your horse gets loaded, you leave, and if the cops show up you explain the situation while you show your proof of ownership and sweetly offer to leave the premises immediately with said horse.

    The scary charge of trespassing would not stop me from claiming my animal.

    But I do hope everything works out for you and the horse.
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    Rainy
    Stash



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2007
    Posts
    1,704

    Default

    What's the point of this thread?
    If it's a cautionary tale about what can go wrong when you use an agent then OK.
    But I don't see how this will help you get your horse back. If you named the BNT, the agent and the barns the horse was/has been at then folks could make sure they don't do any deals with the players.
    I'd really like to hear the other side of the story.

    Good luck in getting this resolved.



  13. #53
    Join Date
    Oct. 15, 2005
    Location
    Chesapeake, Virginia
    Posts
    2,997

    Default

    Wow, there have been quite a few post since I first saw this thread this morning. I have a few things I would like to comment on.

    First, I know the OP and the situation. What has been posted is the truth. Most of you COTHers know I have spent the last 10 years dealing with horse crooks and illegal horse deals. And I can say with certainty that what has been done in this instance is indeed partly unethical and partly criminal.

    People in the horse industry need to be held accountable for their actions. It does not matter if you are a BNT or little no-name dealer. The same rules/laws should apply.

    Unlike the others involved in this the OP is following the law in VA with the help of law enforcement. She has said she made a mistake by letting her horse go out on trial. A horse owner's main concern is that once your horse leaves your hands you have no control over where it goes or what happens to it. Her horse has already been shipped out of state not only without her permission but after she specifically told the trainer the horse was not to leave the farm. Because the horse could be on a trailer being shipped elsewhere at this very moment is a concern to the OP and a reason for starting this thread.

    If things were on the up-and-up then this horse should be back in her hands or those involved should return phone calls. I am glad to see the OP is following the letter of the law and hopefully come Sunday evening she has her horse back. If she does not then I hope she presses criminal charges. Big or small horse trainers/brokers/dealers continue to get away with this type of activity. The only way to stop it is to stand up for what it right and rightfully yours.

    supernatural, I will be more than happy to help in any way I can. Should you need contact information to anyone within the Dept of Justice...FBI or US Attorney's office here in VA....please do not hesitate to ask.

    Debbie Hanson
    Last edited by RNB; Jul. 31, 2008 at 04:46 PM. Reason: can't spell :)



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Apr. 3, 2003
    Location
    Up the creek from bar.ka
    Posts
    10,076

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    What's the point of this thread?
    If it's a cautionary tale about what can go wrong when you use an agent then OK.
    But I don't see how this will help you get your horse back. If you named the BNT, the agent and the barns the horse was/has been at then folks could make sure they don't do any deals with the players.
    I'd really like to hear the other side of the story.

    Good luck in getting this resolved.
    You know it's just a matter of time until one of the players shows up, or someone pretending to be one of the players. THEN THIS WILL GETTING REALLY INTERESTING!



  15. #55
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 2006
    Posts
    284

    Default

    It's being considered on HSS



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Nov. 25, 2007
    Posts
    328

    Default

    You need to do the following if you do not feel comfortable picking the horse up:

    Contact and retain an attorney

    In my experience with Va law enforcement, Culpeper County Sheriff was that they will not pick up or assist in picking up a horse without a signed order from a judge.

    Horses are difficult to prove ownership of because they do not have titles like other property.

    Good luck with this. You are in for a very long legal battle

    As Debbie said you have to follow the letter of the law. I have been through this type of case when I sued Pato Muente for defrauding me on the purchase of As di Bambino aka Ace of Grace and absconding with the horse. (United States District Court for the Southern District Case No 07-80056- CIV- Marra) It took well over a year to have As di Bambino returned.

    Hopefully your horse will be returned in a timely manner and you will not have to go through a long legal battle.
    Last edited by JA; Jul. 31, 2008 at 04:50 PM. Reason: added to



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2000
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,551

    Default

    TR, I think you perhaps should read RNB's post above for clarification.

    http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff
    \"If you are going through hell, keep going.\" ~Churchill~



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Aug. 9, 2007
    Posts
    9,652

    Default Listen to RNB

    Listen to RNB, she has been there, done that.
    When you let someone take your horse on trial, you should put everything in writing, like where the horse can go, if it can be moved out of state, etc., and in that contract put what the penalty will be for noncompliance or violation of the contract. Make that lots of $$$ for violations.
    One person take the horse on trial.
    That person hands off to another person.
    Someone gets horse on trial.
    You try to get the horse back.
    That person moves the horse to another state.
    This is not normal.
    But is often the case if they want to use your horse w/o paying for him.
    And the police don't like to get involved in a "civil dispute".
    When a horse is not stolen off of your property but goes with a trainer for sale, you cannot really go pick him back up unless you take a deputy to protect you, and that is hard to get.
    Because they consider it a "civil dispute".
    One case is going to a hearing in middle georgia Monday on the same issues.
    It takes months and sometimes years and thousands of dollars, ask RNB.
    Get every detail in writing before the horse leaves on trial so what has happened to this woman won't happen to you.
    Every tiny detail from whether they can pull the mane to what horse will eat, or where horse can be taken, or who can take the horse.
    Otherwise all will be in same fix as this op and the poster who said she too got jumped on for posting her problems.
    If op goes to get her horse without protection of the police, she could get arrested or shot.



  19. #59
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2008
    Posts
    1,534

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JA View Post
    You need to do the following if you do not feel comfortable picking the horse up:

    Contact and retain an attorney

    In my experience with Va law enforcement, Culpeper County Sheriff was that they will not pick up or assist in picking up a horse without a signed order from a judge.

    Horses are difficult to prove ownership of because they do not have titles like other property.

    Good luck with this. You are in for a very long legal battle
    Um a legal and signed bill of sale should be good enough to prove ownership. Some horses are registered and have papers too. It's really not that complicated if you play your cards right and keep track of things from the get-go instead of going by word of mouth and trust the whole time. (Which I think is a good point this OP is trying to make...people really need to cover their asses when it comes to horses, in all aspects. It's a VERY dirty world.)

    I think this is the very reason the horse world is so corrupt, because so many people are so quick to go "hire an attorney" and try and make some money off of someone when they didn't take the proper precautions in the first place. Why take someone to court when you didn't do your part by keeping clear record of everything you've done???

    Like I've stated before, every person in the horse world should always be looked at as a fox with a sheep's skin. No matter what.



  20. #60
    Join Date
    May. 31, 2007
    Location
    Aiken, SC
    Posts
    4,696

    Default

    Very true. The police will not get involved in what they see as a civil dispute. Its only "civil" becuase its a horse. If I took a car on a test drive and drove it into another state it would be a crime and no argument with the police.

    Posting a warning to others is a good thing. Posting a warning to the criminals is also a good thing. If they know how serious it is and that it will not be tolerated they may not go through with it.


    OP is not sure where the horse is. Driving around looking for criminals on your own is not a wise move. She did the right thing--called the police, followed their directions and posted the warning.

    She cannot post names and specifics on COTH unless there is a fianl ruling form a court of law. The fact she did not post names has no baring on her honesty. If she had, the thread would have gone "poof"!


    Imagine a burgelar come into your house and took something, Do you have to track him down and then go to his house to get it back? Is that even wise? What about a con man? Do you stomp over to him and demand your $$$ back? No. You call the police and they charge him with a crime. If you are very lucky you get your stuff back, but thats rare.

    OP would rather give a 3 day warning and get her horse back then lose the horse and get a crimianl conviction.



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