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  1. #1
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    Default Question to WB breeders - Would YOU send a horse to Germany for the Bundeschampionat

    If you could / or qualified.

    Still not sure whether this is possible or not. Just wondering if it were, how many would spend the money to ship one over and then back for this.
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  2. #2
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    Not me. The costs would run at least $30,000. It's not worth it, unless one has a ginormous trust fund to draw on. I'd much rather spend that money on good training, lessons, maybe another fun new horse, etc.



  3. #3
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    I believe in one of the recent Dressage Today issues, Michael Klimke mentioned something about the number of horses who had gone to the Bundeschampionat and were now competing successfully at GP. An exact number was not named, but the gist was that there weren't many...

    If I remember correctly, he also commented that one of his young horses qualified several years ago; and while he went, he didn't do very well because he wouldn't ask his horse for the biggest, most extravagant extensions, etc.

    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about the article. Going off memory.

    So my vote is "no", regardless of cost. If my goals were different, perhaps - I'm sure it's the right route for a lot of people. But my goal is to have a mentally and physically sound competition horse, and (IMO) the horses for the Bundeschampionat are pushed too far, too fast.



  4. #4
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    Yes, absolutely I would send a horse over there to compete in the Bundeschampionat. I'm a stallion owner and a breeder. I want the youngsters I'm breeding to be competitive on the world stage. My stallion has already had multiple offspring in the Bundeschampionat and I have very good German stamm mares here in the US, so it is a real possibility for me.
    http://ShowjumpersUSA.com
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  5. #5
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    Do you mean the World Championship in Verden sponsored by the WBFSH? How could a US horse be eligible since we have no qualifiers for the BuCha over here?
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShowjumpersUSA View Post
    Yes, absolutely I would send a horse over there to compete in the Bundeschampionat. I'm a stallion owner and a breeder. I want the youngsters I'm breeding to be competitive on the world stage. My stallion has already had multiple offspring in the Bundeschampionat and I have very good German stamm mares here in the US, so it is a real possibility for me.
    Wow, you would spend upwards of $30,000 to send ONE horse to Germany for the BuCha? You must have that ginormous trust fund I was talking about! Lucky you! LOL!



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Wow, you would spend upwards of $30,000 to send ONE horse to Germany for the BuCha? You must have that ginormous trust fund I was talking about! Lucky you! LOL!
    It would be a one-way ticket. I would have no reason to bring him back here.

    You have to remember, I have a verband approved and licensed stallion, his youngsters are verband eligible if out of a verband approved mare. You bet I would send a Campesino baby over there on the advice of a verband judge. I imagine anyone who has a stallion who is both approved and licensed by the verband would do so.
    http://ShowjumpersUSA.com
    CAMPESINO (1990 - 2008)
    Capitol I - Sacramento Song xx
    http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/annalisasmith



  8. #8
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    I am encouraged to hear Showjumper's USA response. Breeding and showing is hugely expensive at this level. I am glad to hear there are organizations in the US able to back their offspring. There is no other way "WE" will make our mark on the European scene.

    I have a filly this year that I believe has three gaits for a "nine". If that is still the case in three years, I would certainly try to send her over. Anything less than exceptional is a waste of time/expense for Young Horse World Championship classes.
    Last edited by Crosiadore Farm; Jul. 29, 2008 at 02:58 AM. Reason: Spelling



  9. #9
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    It does not make any sense to even ask this question as you need to have the horse here to compete and qualify. It is not just sending it over for the BuCha.
    Gwendolyn
    http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
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  10. #10
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    Well qualification for the BC is pretty hard over here, soooo many horses trying.
    Even though it may be an honour, for me the BC is more and more a pure big sales event.
    So if I would have a pretty good horse that I would want to sell (or promote - Stallion) yes I would try the way. But even if already in Germany it is expansive. Not just the show BC itself, but also already the work in advance and money for a good and reknown rider.
    If I would have a good but soso horse amoungst there for sale it is a no. Because this kind of communication might happen. " The horse was at the BC." "Aoh and what did he do ?" "he fnished 51st in the jumpers" (Which would be in the middle). Reaction " Oh, I see". So one can only loose with such a horse. Better to take the regular competitions in the same class locally or to bigger "normal" events and get ribbons than 51st at the BC for selling.

    And if I would have a horse that I would want to take up through the levels. Also a no.
    No waste of riding in a speacial way to be good there. In my eyes it hinders at least in dressage a forward way to the higher classes. And would not have any value on the way up.
    Last edited by alexandra; Jul. 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM. Reason: something got cut out...
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
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  11. #11
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    I think folks here are getting two events mixed up - the Bundeschampionate and the World Championships for Young Dressage Horses. The BuCha is an event for German horses where the WC is for everybody that qualifies.

    So yes, I'm in the camp that would send a horse to the WC if it could qualify with scores in the high 8's or low 9's. I also think it would only make sense if the horse was US bred and owned.
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    I think folks here are getting two events mixed up - the Bundeschampionate and the World Championships for Young Dressage Horses. The BuCha is an event for German horses where the WC is for everybody that qualifies.

    So yes, I'm in the camp that would send a horse to the WC if it could qualify with scores in the high 8's or low 9's. I also think it would only make sense if the horse was US bred and owned.
    Siegi - I'm sure you're right. I, too, thought the two events were separate - my read on the OP was that it's not a possibility for US horses, but if it were... That being said, I could swear I just saw something that spoke of the World Championship and the Bundeschampionate as if they were one in the same. Guess it's yet another example of false information on the internet.

    Either way, the bit in the article I read was for the BuCha.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by aurum View Post
    It does not make any sense to even ask this question as you need to have the horse here to compete and qualify. It is not just sending it over for the BuCha.
    I asked the question because in the thread about Ann Kitchel it was mentioned that her stallions were bred in Germany, not here, and while it was a wonderful achievement for an American breeder it would be nice if one could qualify to go that was born on US soil. I also said in my OP "IF"

    I was just wondering how many SO would spend the money to send one over (and back if warranted).

    This was more of a "what if" scenario...
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FullCircleTraining View Post
    Siegi - I'm sure you're right. I, too, thought the two events were separate - my read on the OP was that it's not a possibility for US horses, but if it were...
    Exactly what I meant!
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  15. #15
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    I'm guessing the OP's question arose from the other thread, where we discussed the Oldenburg stallion bred and owned by an American that was nominated to the BuCha by the Oldenburg Verband. We did mention the difference between the Young Horse World Championships and the BuCha, and I pointed out that I wasn't even sure that a horse bred and born in America would be allowed to compete at the BuCha.

    At any rate - my estimate of a minimum of $30,000 was based on shipping a horse to Germany, spending a few weeks in training before "the big event" (whichever big event that might be), competing at "the big event", and then shipping the horse back home. Of course, there would be qualifying costs to consider, so even IF an American bred horse would be eligible for the BuCha (and, as I guessed, that is apparently not possible), the horse would have to first qualify IN GERMANY. That would add another - what, $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 to the table?

    Like I said - I think those kind of expenses are best left to those with big trust funds.



  16. #16
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    Yes Seigi is correct the Bucha is for German bred horses and ponies. The World Championships for young horses is open to US bred horses. If one of ours qualified we would certainly provide sponsorship to get the horse and rider there!
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
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  17. #17
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    the bundeschampionat (warendorf, sept) is for german bred and german branded horses only.
    so if it was US owned it would still have to carry a german brand&german papers, no matter what verband.
    and it would have to go through the qualification tours in summer if 5&6 yrs old, no matter what discipline (jumpers, dressage, eventers, driving).
    min scores 8,0 for jumping, dressage 7,8 with no single score under 7something
    and in eventing a certain average of at least 3 comps if i remember that right.
    3&4 yr olds are being nominated by the verdands at respective dates.

    world championship is a different thing.
    verden.
    august.
    5-6yr horses only.
    jumping an dressage only, no eventing, no driving.
    world breeding verbands are given certain spaces depending on the size of their verbands (mares registered i believe) for each discipline.
    each FEI nominates their 5-6yr horses.
    that tells you about the qualitiy already:
    it tends to be lower due to non homogenous qualifications.
    a certain horse from country xyz might not be good enough to qualifiy amongst german or dutch standards but since density is lighter in other countries it could still become nomintated.
    reason why bundeschampionat is regarded higher than world championship.

    compareable to the FEI world equestrian games and olympics vs german (dutch) campionships in general:
    only the top four of each discipline can go to the WEG or olympics while probably the top 30 of the domestic ranking list could still do well against some of the weaker countries (not an insult, just a fact - we saw it hapen at the 2006 WEG in aachen where the ukraine team - having bought some german, dutch and belgium riders- all of a sudden came close to bronce medal.)

    the hannoverian verbands makes use of the world championship of young horses in august
    to run its own 3&4yr qualifier for the bundeschampionat in september (again: tells you about the standards of bundeschampionat)
    thus, the most interesting competition class at the world championship for hanoverian breeders is the 3&4yr final on sat/sunday in order to see their best young horses all together and find out who is the "creme de la creme" going to represent hannover in warendorf in september.

    stigma:
    the bundeschampionat has become such a huge marketing tool and focus of attention that many of the bespoken "best" 3&4yr horses (mainly stallions) don't appear anymore - as they can only loose if they don't rank amongst the top 3.
    a stallion who has been bespoken highly in winter age 2 1/2 looses more than he could gain if ranking "amongst others" in september.
    reason you don't see many of the schockemöhle stallions any more as it used to be couple of years ago when they were send in (half) douzends or so. same is true for many other stallion owners.

    the bundeschampionat has developed to become the major recognition tool for younger horses (mainly stallions) and as such is does cut both ways.

    having seen many of the 3&4 yr olds being shown since last winters (stallion shows and riding classes) appearances you can tell that many of them have already lost their shine and quality under saddle as it is simply too much - being shown at many events (riding horse classes) over the season simply drags on these young horses so that by now they are worn out.
    we had a few of these examples at last weeks westfalian "verbands week" (equivalent to the hannoverian application making use of the world championships to qualify the 3&4yr olds, this westfalian week is a full week of young horese show classes to qualify westfalian horses for the bundeschampionat) and some of the well bespoken hot stars from last winter were dragged out already and didn't even make it to the rankings anymore, neither were they qualified.
    fame and fortune certainly does cut both ways.

    it was amazing and shocking at the same time as there were two stallions out there who hadn't even been licensed last winter but had maintained intact and well prepared, given their time up until last week and not having had to undergo the crazy stallionshow circus in first place in winter - and they appeared like phoenix from the ashes last week outclassing some of the hot licensed ones from last winter...

    so which is the better horse or stallion?
    the one carrying the licensing lable form last winter or the one who wasn't good enough back than but certainly is now - ?
    who would you breed to if you hadn't seen them before - ?
    IF any of these nonlicensed ones does make it amongst the top final candidates in september
    (bundeschampionat warendorf) you can be assured that licensing him AFTERWARDS will only be a formal issue, no matter what verband (happened to benetton dream last year).

    so if you ask the question if you were to send a horse to the bundeschampionat you would need to specify if this was a 3&4 yr old that needs to be nominated or one of the 5&6 yr olds who seem to be doing slightly better with the burden of qualifiers, specially if owners manage them carefully and don't send them to any potential qualification show out there but stop showing them once they are qualified and keep them fresh&motivated up until september.

    if i was a stallionowner i would manage my young stallion carefully, make sure he is fit for the nomination round in summer and keep him at home up until september.
    everything else is sales and marketing, no matter what age or discipline, as a bundeschampionat qualification already counts for good money/recognition and you see many of these horese appear at the respective elite auctions in autumn (or, even more spectacular) at the PSI in december - where the real money is being made.



  18. #18
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    Excellent post, Fannie Mae! Super points!



  19. #19
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    Fannie Mae - thanks for a great post! It's very interesting how the Bundeschampionate have changed over the years. I had no idea that they had turned into this marketing spectacle..... That's what I get for not going to Germany every year!! :-)
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  20. #20
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    There was a huuuuge eklat with the BC going on when Mr. Melchior wanted his horses to compete at the BC even involving a law case. Now the BC rules state that "German" horses bred according to the breeding law in Germany and branded/papered by a german registry can compete (after qualifying"). The 3&4 years are nominees from their registries and the others can qualify in special qualifiers.
    The registries get a certain amount of starting places in relation to the registered mares with them.
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
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