Mr. P: not one I like to see close up. It gets better if you get down to grandkids. Not ALL his offpspring have front leg soundness and confo issues....but way too many of them do. It really depends on WHICH of his offspring lines you are dealing with.....like some are awful but I like Fappiano. Fort Chafee: I don't know much about.
Unbridled: another source of "not sound enough" for me
Buckpasser: one of my favorites for conformational correctness
Dynaformer: great jump, not necessarily "easy" on temperment.
What camohn said. I love Buckpasser & Dynaformer, but will pass on anything with Mr. P, due to soundness and disposition issues I've encountered, repeatedly. Some think Mr. P. through Fappiano is better, but I just won't touch any of them. YMMV.
Sunny's mom...shame on you for even suggesting it!
I have no business looking at horses right now...just window shopping (have been for the last 4 years...oy) and started looking at bloodlines for some reason and realized that I knew some TB sires were know for tossing lousy runners but fabulous H/J. Must have something to do with all these damn horse dreams I've been having...or my perplexing feeling that I need a horse. Damn you Sunny's Mom...Damn you
I did do a forum search on Dynaformer, and found a reference to Alydar tossing good jumpers too...and there was another CANTER horse that had him, bottom side grand sire I think...will go look at the website and see.
I think that's a very nice looking mare-- with nothing to complain about in the pedigree either. I took care of a lot of Mr. P's when I worked on the track in Florida, and found them great horses-- good looking, well conformed, and a lot of them were super sweet to boot. Many have done well as show horses, both in hunters and dressage, with a grandson of Mr. P recently (last year?) winning Best Young Horse at Upperville. While a lot of Mr. P's (and Unbridled's) break down on the track, please keep in mind that show horses are never asked to run fast enough to hurt themselves-- they certainlydon't need the level of soundness required of sprint (and classic) champions-- which an unusually high number of these horses become. These horses do not get hurt because they're poorly put together: Unbridled, for example, is well known for his excellent conformation, as is Barbaro's dam, another Mr. P. line horse. They tend to get hurt because they run so hard, and on the rare occasion I've seen an irritable Mr. P, it's always been because he was hurting.
Kind of curious as to why you didn't mention all the Northern Dancer in this pedigree. That's also a nice source of a lot of good qualities: good movement, good conformation, and athleticism out the whazoo.
Ironically, the horse I like least for show horses in this pedigree is the Roberto: Dynaformer. He's sired a lot of good races horses, but he himself is pretty homely (+ ill-tempered), with his offspring known for toughness a whole lot more than looks.
To me, this mare looks very much like a Mr. P-- a very good thing. I agree with Sunny's mom-- this mare deserves a closer acquaintance. She's extremely well put together (even "uphill", which can be hard to find in a TB), and that pedigree has a lot of excellent depth.
(Re: the Alydars-- yes, they've produced GP jumpers, with Alydar being a son of Raise a Native just like Mr P, Majestic Prince, and a bunch of other horses who combined beauty with athleticism and, in my experience, excellent temperament.)
I suppose I didn't mention Northern Dancer because while I'm familiar with him as a racehorse, I know nothing of what he passes down. Possibly also figured it was a common enough line in the way that Native Dancer is, that it didn't matter much? I had a Native Dancer mare, and while pretty...that was about all she was - jump was ok, movement was ok, temperament was ok, and as a special bonus, was strung tight as a high wire in winter.
Turns out the Alydar mare is a 12 year old broodmare, and while I really am just window shopping, I'm window shopping for a riding horse.
You all are getting me more interested in that mare than I have any right to be!
Nice mare -- I have truck and trailer!! Maybe if I kick a horse out I'd have some room
15! green star mares in the back pedigree, uphill build. Yes, nice. We like mares, even red heads. I just had a long string of chestnuts and had to switch to another color for awhile -- now it's bay mare acres.
The truth is what you can get other people to believe.
If I had the means, I really would strongly consider picking this mare up. She's 6, survived sound at the track, promising bloodline and conformation...not a bad size. If I went out and she had a reasonable character and movement, I'd take her.
If my circumstances change, and she's still available, I promise I'll go look at her.
Pony Grandma - green star mares? Can you give me the 101 version?
Reines De Course
Ellen Parker is a pedigree researcher who has spent lots of time studying famous mares. She's comes out with a list of the 500 or so most influential mares of the last century. These Reine De Course (Queens of The Turf) mares are highlighted in the pedigree with a green star.
Look around at horse pedigrees at www.pedigreequery.com to compare the number of green star mares. For example Seattle Slew had 16 green star mares in a 5 generation pedigree and he sold as an inexpensive yearling BEFORE this scoring for mares was developed. Why he became what he was.
7-8 green star mares are more common in pedigrees of many nice horses, 11-12 start getting excited, 12+ RUN.
I have mares with 9, 11 and 12 green stars in the 5G.
The truth is what you can get other people to believe.
pony grandma, thank you for the 101 - that is actually quite interesting, I had no idea. 15 eh? You're SO not helping!
Go look at her. Consider that when horse shopping at least half the time 15.3h turns out to be 15.1 (or less), and especially where manners are concerned, horses live to make liars out of their owners. Then you can walk away and put her out of your mind.
At least you know darned well that's what would happen if you really did need another mare
She's got Mr. P topside grand sire, and Dynaformer bottom side grand sire. Buckpasser is further back on the topside. (pedigree link is in original post)
So- a cranky well jumping chesnut mare that's unsound...ok, good to know! The names were familiar to me, but I had no idea why...
Uhhhh, no. Mr. P is a leading hunter sire for a reason, and I think if you ask this on the h/j forum or the eventing forum you may get more balanced opinions. For some reason the SHB forum poopoos Mr. P. I loff my Mr. P, personally, and she would kick ASS at hunters if I ever decided to dust off my britches. Vineyridge also posted a link on here about longevity of race horses and # of starts and Mr. P was pretty high up the totem pole (in a very good way). Judge the horse, not the stereotype.
To the OP
I really like your redhead! TV Commercial and Nijinsky plus Buckpasser and Roberto and Ribot/His Majesty. Should be tough and athletic and beautiiful. May need good handling as temperament could be interesting/not for the lower levels.
Won't be looking at her for us as we are selling as my daughter starts vet school in September. I will be sad to see our homebred with the 16 green stars in her 5g go. She is such a competitor-- loves it!
11 green stars, with Unbridled/Mr. P, Alydar on top, Northern Dancer and Hoist the Flag on the bottom
okggo - I was being sarcastic, not literal. I'm sure she's just like any other horse - needs to be assessed and understood in person. I like what you said about longevity - I feel strongly that is something that needs to be bred for, and adds yet another point to Rita Rose.
I mentioned to my husband that I may have found a horse, and that if I could *just* get the job that I've got my eye on, I'd probably at least go see her, if not buy her. But, as it stands, it's a egg in basket at this point. Maybe you all could cross your fingers and send some good vibes my way so that I can pull one of these nice horses off the track.